List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part IV

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 4

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[Mr Platinum]

Start here and work backwards.

 

[Jayman15]

Fox Footy - Trading Day having their say on the Aleer situation. Unfortunately, Dixon was in for Joey which is a massive downgrade

‘Disgrace’: Inside trade backflip that blindsided ‘livid’ gun... so is there another Saints move?

‘He was in tears’: Text that set off ‘disgraceful’ AFL trade backflip as new details emerge

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Simple Jack]

Fox Footy - Trading Day having their say on the Aleer situation. Unfortunately, Dixon was in for Joey which is a massive downgrade

‘Disgrace’: Inside trade backflip that blindsided ‘livid’ gun... so is there another Saints move?

‘He was in tears’: Text that set off ‘disgraceful’ AFL trade backflip as new details emerge

www.foxsports.com.au

"gun"

 

[Significant]

I assume that's coming from this page which is undated (but very old): https://www.afl.com.au/about-afl/rookie-players . I wish the AFL would update or remove it as it is full of misinformation

the latest regs AFAIK (Feb 2025) are here: https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...L-Rules-effective-14-February-2025-Final-.pdf

where Cat Bs are now capped at 2, and no real distinction is made between Irish players and all international players (except when it comes to scholarships). so I'm pretty sure we can keep LOC and Armstrong on there

the rules are pretty murky on moving from Cat B to Cat A but I assume that's what we did with McLennan as Draftguru has him listed as Cat A for this year

If I was right the first time then it is a scary thought but an absolute no brainer to move off Aleer if we still need to shed a contracted player as it currently stands without getting him in.

I actually think its a softening of the PR nightmare if we come at it from that angle.

"Leeks future with us was predicated on Geelong coming to the table on Rowan, or a suitor emerging for Jack Steele, both of which haven't eventuated and have taken us by surprise"

"As it stands, there is going to have to be a difficult conversation with an existing contracted player on out list to be re-rookied, so there was absolutely no mechanism available to advance the Aleer conversation"

"It's regrettable and we wish him the best, but this is the cut throat industry of list management and as it stands we already have a really difficult conversation to hold with one of our own"

"In the end, do we take less for two contracted and wanted players, leaders of our football club, just to free up the list spot to attract a committed player? No. We do whats best for this football club, which is retain both Jack and Rowan as the cultural fabric of this team and who have a massive contribution to make to our future success".

 

[Significant]

Just to go over the LIST SPOTS one more time...

• Our website lists the full 44 player squad for 2025 - 38 Seniors, 4 Cat A rookies, 2 Cat B rookies
• Senior List - lost 6, gained 4 (2 left)
• OUT: Webster, Cordy, Heath, Byrnes, Schoenmaker, Jones
• IN: TDK, JSOS, Flanders, Ryan
• Rookie List - lost 2, gained 0 (2 left)
• OUT: McLennan, Boyd
• No change to our Cat B rookies

At this stage, we need a minimum 3 spots available for the National Draft.

Therefore, we still need to trade a contracted player, or delist them with a commitment to re-rookie them, to ensure we have the minimum 3 spots.

I'd assume Dow or Carroll would now be the unlucky player because we haven't got the return we were expecting for Marshall from Geelong.

Geelong would be across the position we were in and no doubt used it as leverage in their trade deal knowing the pressure we were under to move Rowan on.

Hence why the script was flipped on everything yesterday.

We will keep Marshall > We can't commit to Aleer > Geelong now chasing Curnow

 

[Significant]

FWIW, I 100% back the club with this.

There are things we could have done better.

We could have acknowledged the difficulty in recruiting Aleer when JSOS was recruited through Free Agency, noting that Aleer would be reliant on other moving parts given the list spots available with our current out of contract players.

But that would also be showing our hand publicly in trade negotiations, acknowledging the pressure we were under to move on players, and potentially sink their value moving forward.

In the end, we needed to move Marshall and Steele on not from a salary perspective, but a list spot perspective.

We could have also limited our commitments to recruiting players. Not gone after JSOS, not outwardly committed to Aleer. In the end, we were playing with fire with all these commitments.

TL;DR - ultimately, if it came down to a decision to force Marshall and Steele out for unders to allow us to recruit Aleer, then I think we have made the right decision by the St Kilda Football Club.

Unfortunately I think Carroll will need to be the sacrificial lamb (unless we shift Butler off to the Gold Coast), but these moves have been made before, with some risk that another team will pounce (like Gold Coast did with Max Knobel last year!)

 

[Significant]

Big brain operator over here

 

[WhiskySaint]

I know list spots are an issue, but is there any chance we get SDK without giving up Ro? If the cats want Curnow and 3 late first can’t get it done, maybe we do next years first for SDK and then the cats can bundle up the 4 firsts they have to get up the draft order for the blues?

We could then sell the dogs Doogs…. Hahahahaha

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

He did

Is that the epitome of ' tough as nails'...pissing on one's own cereal in the morning?

 

[Sully111]

How are we disrupting today?

 

[heynow85]

Just to go over the LIST SPOTS one more time...

• Our website lists the full 44 player squad for 2025 - 38 Seniors, 4 Cat A rookies, 2 Cat B rookies
• Senior List - lost 6, gained 4 (2 left)
• OUT: Webster, Cordy, Heath, Byrnes, Schoenmaker, Jones
• IN: TDK, JSOS, Flanders, Ryan
• Rookie List - lost 2, gained 0 (2 left)
• OUT: McLennan, Boyd
• No change to our Cat B rookies

At this stage, we need a minimum 3 spots available for the National Draft.

Therefore, we still need to trade a contracted player, or delist them with a commitment to re-rookie them, to ensure we have the minimum 3 spots.

I'd assume Dow or Carroll would now be the unlucky player because we haven't got the return we were expecting for Marshall from Geelong.

Geelong would be across the position we were in and no doubt used it as leverage in their trade deal knowing the pressure we were under to move Rowan on.

Hence why the script was flipped on everything yesterday.

We will keep Marshall > We can't commit to Aleer > Geelong now chasing Curnow

Still think theirs a fair chance Butler goes late to GC for not much.

 

[dudeintheswamp]

I, for one, am thrilled about our moves thus far

 

[Significant]

Still think theirs a fair chance Butler goes late to GC for not much.

Well he needs to! But if he does, given we gave 7 up early for Flanders hopefully its for a pick that may sneak in front of the Fincher bid...

I'd be pushing for 36, or if they get a slew of draft picks with one landing in front of it.

 

[Significant]

I wonder if Wood or Hill (or to a lesser extent, Howard) would be happy to shift to the rookie list....

 

[AaronSCHQ]

This is not how employment law works lol.

Are these people ******ed?

And that’s on his manager to have settled him over the past two seasons. Bob up now and then and let him know that until a trade is done, the contract is irrelevant.

 

[phantom13]

If anyone wants their day ruined, have a listen to this

I think this was worth listening to to understand that Andrew Gaze is a sovereign citizen.

If I was right the first time then it is a scary thought but an absolute no brainer to move off Aleer if we still need to shed a contracted player as it currently stands without getting him in.

I actually think its a softening of the PR nightmare if we come at it from that angle.

"Leeks future with us was predicated on Geelong coming to the table on Rowan, or a suitor emerging for Jack Steele, both of which haven't eventuated and have taken us by surprise"

"As it stands, there is going to have to be a difficult conversation with an existing contracted player on out list to be re-rookied, so there was absolutely no mechanism available to advance the Aleer conversation"

"It's regrettable and we wish him the best, but this is the cut throat industry of list management and as it stands we already have a really difficult conversation to hold with one of our own"

"In the end, do we take less for two contracted and wanted players, leaders of our football club, just to free up the list spot to attract a committed player? No. We do whats best for this football club, which is retain both Jack and Rowan as the cultural fabric of this team and who have a massive contribution to make to our future success".

Personally I think best case scenario is that we got from being labeled “ruthless” to “incompetent”.

I’d rather we didn’t go that line even if it is true

 

[MrFoster]

Also think we’ve done Geelong a favour. We wanted their 2026 first, but they would like to keep it to get Curnow after finally getting Curnow’s word (He is training with Bailey Smith

3

Bailey Smith

Age

24

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

). we said ok, but if you land Curnow, then we get SDK and a second round pick, hence the reason we pulled the Aleer deal. If unexpected a much better player is made available, wouldn’t you do the same? Or alternatively, if GWS all of a sudden offered Aleer $200k a year more than us, do you think his commitment to us is still the same? The moral outrage showed by the media is really embarrassing.

 

[pebblesofsand]

FWIW, I 100% back the club with this.

There are things we could have done better.

We could have acknowledged the difficulty in recruiting Aleer when JSOS was recruited through Free Agency, noting that Aleer would be reliant on other moving parts given the list spots available with our current out of contract players.

But that would also be showing our hand publicly in trade negotiations, acknowledging the pressure we were under to move on players, and potentially sink their value moving forward.

In the end, we needed to move Marshall and Steele on not from a salary perspective, but a list spot perspective.

We could have also limited our commitments to recruiting players. Not gone after JSOS, not outwardly committed to Aleer. In the end, we were playing with fire with all these commitments.

TL;DR - ultimately, if it came down to a decision to force Marshall and Steele out for unders to allow us to recruit Aleer, then I think we have made the right decision by the St Kilda Football Club.

Unfortunately I think Carroll will need to be the sacrificial lamb (unless we shift Butler off to the Gold Coast), but these moves have been made before, with some risk that another team will pounce (like Gold Coast did with Max Knobel last year!)

It sounds harsh but de-listing a player with a commitment to relist is a pretty standard list management practice these days.

Players can nominate the terms so are prepared to accept so its not like they are left hanging. Clubs probably chuck in a sweetener for a player to agree to the arrangement.

 

[akaifu]

 

[MrFoster]

Not sure Sam with some news on Marshall is the authority on St Kilda’s list management decisions.

 

[gringo2011]

If I was right the first time then it is a scary thought but an absolute no brainer to move off Aleer if we still need to shed a contracted player as it currently stands without getting him in.

I actually think its a softening of the PR nightmare if we come at it from that angle.

"Leeks future with us was predicated on Geelong coming to the table on Rowan, or a suitor emerging for Jack Steele, both of which haven't eventuated and have taken us by surprise"

"As it stands, there is going to have to be a difficult conversation with an existing contracted player on out list to be re-rookied, so there was absolutely no mechanism available to advance the Aleer conversation"

"It's regrettable and we wish him the best, but this is the cut throat industry of list management and as it stands we already have a really difficult conversation to hold with one of our own"

"In the end, do we take less for two contracted and wanted players, leaders of our football club, just to free up the list spot to attract a committed player? No. We do whats best for this football club, which is retain both Jack and Rowan as the cultural fabric of this team and who have a massive contribution to make to our future success".

Just ignore it and a big trade or a shock move happens and it all blows over.

With Caldwell we just refused to speak to his manager after we had Crouch signed. He thought he was a Saint. Players haven’t refused to come since.

We are considered hard to deal with but maybe that’s not a bad think. Port were notorious hard arse list managers and they managed to recruit heaps.

 

[akaifu]

According to Sam Edmund

Saints offered a 2026 2nd and 2027 3rd for Aleer and 2027 2nd

GWS said no

Saints walked away

Apparently there was a level of board intervention to prevent trading of more future picks

 

[Significant]

Not sure Sam with some news on Marshall is the authority on St Kilda’s list management decisions.

I think its dead in the water

 

[akaifu]

From the way Sam Edmund spoke, it seems like he was framing it as Aleer’s management’s fault

Mentioned the Derksen scenario

I reckon management failed to ensure the clubs could come to a deal before letting Aleer put in his trade request

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

I think its dead in the water

Are you saying Geelong has walked away.

With 6 days left?