List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion

[M Malice]

Trade Radio... where 2 weeks feels like 2 months.

 

[M Malice]

Darragh Joyce

41

Darragh Joyce

Age

28

Ht

195cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.4

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

4.6

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.4

3star

MG

207.6

3star

No current season stats available

D

11.4

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

4.6

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.4

4star

MG

207.6

4star

, Jimmy Tunstill and Luke Beecken are now our only players OOC this year and we still don't know what is happening, are we waiting to see what unfolds during the trade period?

Joyce is 100% needed for KPD depth unless we are planning on bringing in a couple of mature KPD we haven't heard any gossip about.

Tunstill is a keep as depth at least, looked handy/improved on limited opportunities in seniors this season.

I'd be stunned if we didn't extend Beecken.

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

of the 7 out its 5 senior listed... so only 3 available senior list spots means we probably need to open more up to have more draft picks for matching purposes at the draft?

we might look to shift a couple from the senior to rookie lists. eg. McCarthy and Tunstill (both at risk of leaving though if suggested?)

That would mean we go in with 5 national draft picks – maximising our points matching capability. We then match with Annabelle, grab one or two other kids with our remaining picks (in the 40’s/50’s), and possibly upgrade Bruce and will Mclachlan to the senior list from rookie list.

That would leave us with 2 unused rookie list spots left to grab an undrafted academy player or two or add a mature Ruckman as insurance given Draper won’t be available to start the season and we’d only have Fort and Smith on the list.

The above is based on my understanding of the points matching rules we'd need to work within (can only take into draft day the same number of picks as you have spare spots on your list) and of course ignores the possibility of any other unknown moves either in or out.

Is that right ?
I thought all of Robertson, Ah Chee, Day, Ryan, Starcevich and Oscar were senior listed with Craven as the only Rookie listed player.

The rookie shuffle is a great way we’ve generated list spots previous. Upgrading the likes of Bruce and Will seems deserving. With Tunstill not be delisted already, it seems likely a rookie spot might be offered, better than the alternative of multiple late selections.

 

[StevoJenkins]

I'm a little confused on the starce thing. Don't we already have enough points to match a bid on Annable?

No, but aside from Starce, we now need to fill 5 list slots as well as landing Annable now. We will get Allen as an FA, but still got another 4 slots. As other posters have pointed out, we can rookie some academy players, but may have to dip into the state leagues for the last remaining spots.

Darragh Joyce, Jimmy Tunstill and Luke Beecken are now our only players OOC this year and we still don't know what is happening, are we waiting to see what unfolds during the trade period?

Joyce is 100% needed for KPD depth unless we are planning on bringing in a couple of mature KPD we haven't heard any gossip about.

Tunstill is a keep as depth at least, looked handy/improved on limited opportunities in seniors this season.

I'd be stunned if we didn't extend Beecken.

Would be very silly to not extend these guys. If they left as well, we'd be turning over 10 players on our list, which would be replaced by players that would have to go through our system from scratch.

 

[Nathan Barley]

So why is Copeland an idiot for staying.

Clearly you value money over loyalty. I don’t; I’d have loyalty over money every day of the week because I’m not about myself. And like a lot of motivated people, they have a long working history after football where they can make a lot of money off it than the short sighted attitude of thinking they’re only pay day in life will be from footy.

Glad I’m not your friend if it’s all about money.

Mayo how; are you saying Copeland wasn’t offered a bucket load of money to leave or am I making that up, you know to help my reputation and all?

You seem very naive to how the world works.

He turns down big offers to get dropped for a grand final, win one and then get delisted a few years later. Not a good move if he could be sitting back far more comfortably right now

Well after the weekly pub speaking engagements he probably has to do because he turned down more money bit by bit these offers he was getting from other clubs grow to make the story more interesting

 

[Pns_blister]

Might be worth popping a call into Beastmode and reclaiming our barometer

 

[M Malice]

Whenever Copeland's name pops up the first thing that comes to mind is the job he did on Nathan Buckley in the Grand Final, thanks Robbie.

 

[briztoon]

I see a lot wrong with this post, but hope dlanod tells me I’m wrong.

Regardless, we hold the upper hand in the trade.

I believe West Coast holds the upper hand.

Starce is about the best lockdown defender in the league (who admittedly comes with some risk) so I think it's not unfair to ask for a true first round pick.
West Coast have the option to sign him as a free agent, but then both clubs lose - they lose what looks like pick-2, we lose a trade.

West Coast don’t lodge an offer sheet for Starcevich, pushing him towards unrestricted free agency.

Once he’s a free agent they can walk him to the PSD.

We’d have to lodge an offer sheet for Starcevich to try and push him to the national draft, but Starcevich can decline our offer sheet, making him an unrestricted free agent.

Pick 2 has nothing to do with Starcevich, it’s tied to our offer for Allen.

We still have to put in an offer sheet for Allen, otherwise he becomes an unrestricted free agent, and we simply don’t have the draft capital to trade for him, and we don’t have any power of a PSD threat.

We're entitled to request more than their offer of what will be pick 23 (or worse by the time it gets used),

That’s the thing, if both Gold Coast kids get bid on before Annable, it doesn’t matter if we hold pick 22 or 23, as West Coast hope to trade which ever other pick to Gold Coast (as part of a package for another top 10 pick), and “our” pick will end up in the same position.

It does matter if Annable is bid on before one or both of the Gold Coast kids.

knowing that the deal will go through.
Let's say we do get pick-16 (with some other pick swaps out the back), we can do much more with that pick than pick-23. As a starting point, look at the players we've drafted around that pick.
We can assume it will be eaten up by Annable, but it can be traded out for a first rounder next season. with all the pick players trying to get to other clubs, I'm sure we'd find a club come knocking wanting to swap a first rounder this year for a first rounder next year.

Very, very few teams will consider trading a future first round pick, in what is already considered a much stronger and deeper draft, for a late first round pick in this year’s draft.

 

[Pns_blister]

I see a lot wrong with this post, but hope dlanod tells me I’m wrong.

I believe West Coast holds the upper hand.

West Coast don’t lodge an offer sheet for Starcevich, pushing him towards unrestricted free agency.

Once he’s a free agent they can walk him to the PSD.

We’d have to lodge an offer sheet for Starcevich to try and push him to the national draft, but Starcevich can decline our offer sheet, making him an unrestricted free agent.

Pick 2 has nothing to do with Starcevich, it’s tied to our offer for Allen.

We still have to put in an offer sheet for Allen, otherwise he becomes an unrestricted free agent, and we simply don’t have the draft capital to trade for him, and we don’t have any power of a PSD threat.

That’s the thing, if both Gold Coast kids get bid on before Annable, it doesn’t matter if we hold pick 22 or 23, as West Coast hope to trade which ever other pick to Gold Coast (as part of a package for another top 10 pick), and “our” pick will end up in the same position.

It does matter if Annable is bid on before one or both of the Gold Coast kids.

Very, very few teams will consider trading a future first round pick, in what is already considered a much stronger and deeper draft, for a late first round pick in this year’s draft.

We have leverage in so much as they will lose pick 2 if we don’t put in an offer. Also, they can’t take both Starce and Allen in the PSD.

No one is touching a player that doesn’t want to play there (particularly if a player communicates that, after how poorly GWS managed Cam McCarthy) so Brisbane could still take him in the PSD.

West Coast have a lot to gain by us taking Allen. If that means coughing up pick 16 to get pick 2 and Starce, that’s good business.

Losing access to pick 2 in a rebuild is very, very bad business

 

[jfn]

Any thoughts on Starcevich and Robertson + 19 for 22, 23 and 37.

Overall gain of over 700 point. Bring the total to nearly 2000 this draft.

Still got more return from the Ah Chee swap to come.

 

[Pns_blister]

Any thoughts on Starcevich and Robertson + 19 for 22, 23 and 37.

Overall gain of over 700 point. Bring the total to nearly 2000 this draft.

Still got more return from the Ah Chee swap to come.

We generally wait until draft night to acquire more points due to the list spot limitations. Also, don’t think WCE would do that. The first pick of the second round can carry a lot of currency.

 

[MSB ROYS]

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

I see a lot wrong with this post, but hope dlanod tells me I’m wrong.

I believe West Coast holds the upper hand.

West Coast don’t lodge an offer sheet for Starcevich, pushing him towards unrestricted free agency.

Once he’s a free agent they can walk him to the PSD.

We’d have to lodge an offer sheet for Starcevich to try and push him to the national draft, but Starcevich can decline our offer sheet, making him an unrestricted free agent.

Pick 2 has nothing to do with Starcevich, it’s tied to our offer for Allen.

We still have to put in an offer sheet for Allen, otherwise he becomes an unrestricted free agent, and we simply don’t have the draft capital to trade for him, and we don’t have any power of a PSD threat.

That’s the thing, if both Gold Coast kids get bid on before Annable, it doesn’t matter if we hold pick 22 or 23, as West Coast hope to trade which ever other pick to Gold Coast (as part of a package for another top 10 pick), and “our” pick will end up in the same position.

It does matter if Annable is bid on before one or both of the Gold Coast kids.

Very, very few teams will consider trading a future first round pick, in what is already considered a much stronger and deeper draft, for a late first round pick in this year’s draft.

I think your terminology in the second paragraph isn’t 100% correct.

If they don’t lodge an offer sheet for a free agent, my thought would be they go to uncontracted player status.

There is conjecture about their status at that point, if they have to nominate for the National or potentially Pre Season draft (the wording mentions National drafts, but the scenario outlines the matching of a bid, but not accepting the original teams matched offer)

You have a great understanding of all the mechanisms and they can potentially be used, but can understate the other teams position at time. We have decent enough leverage in this scenario, that’s the reason why we’re looking at pick 22/23.

 

[Clarkythelion]

Whenever Copeland's name pops up the first thing that comes to mind is the job he did on Nathan Buckley in the Grand Final, thanks Robbie.
View attachment 2447715

I was there, close enough to hear Buckley berating his team mates for not giving him the ball but if Busy was near him the Pies would just steer clear, what a day that was to be a Lions supporter sitting next to a Collingwood section. Here are my kids with Bushy way back when. He went on to play for Aspley locally, might have even been Captain/Coach.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Why am I naive; that AFL footballers can earn more post AFL career than during. Yep, like that’s true.

I also assume you know that Copeland regrets not leaving or is unhappy because he didn’t leave because according to you money is the only thing in the world.

As for pub speaking engagements; is that why guys that own homes in Brighton and Portsea or Morningside and Sunshine Beach are still doing them because they are hard up for a buck. Or what about Cam Rayner and Dayne Zorko and many others currently other club that do them because they haven’t left and chased the almighty dollar because they are bordering on destitute.

Best all Lions players leave and not be caught by not cashing in and being caught destitute given in your eyes, money is the be all and end all. What a sad logic you live by.

We're not talking a little money to quote you it was 'life changing money'. For what? 1 more premiership and being delisted a few years later?

Seems like a pretty poor outcome

 

[irel]

I see a lot wrong with this post, but hope dlanod tells me I’m wrong.

I believe West Coast holds the upper hand.

West Coast don’t lodge an offer sheet for Starcevich, pushing him towards unrestricted free agency.

Once he’s a free agent they can walk him to the PSD.

We’d have to lodge an offer sheet for Starcevich to try and push him to the national draft, but Starcevich can decline our offer sheet, making him an unrestricted free agent.

Pick 2 has nothing to do with Starcevich, it’s tied to our offer for Allen.

We still have to put in an offer sheet for Allen, otherwise he becomes an unrestricted free agent, and we simply don’t have the draft capital to trade for him, and we don’t have any power of a PSD threat.

That’s the thing, if both Gold Coast kids get bid on before Annable, it doesn’t matter if we hold pick 22 or 23, as West Coast hope to trade which ever other pick to Gold Coast (as part of a package for another top 10 pick), and “our” pick will end up in the same position.

It does matter if Annable is bid on before one or both of the Gold Coast kids.

Very, very few teams will consider trading a future first round pick, in what is already considered a much stronger and deeper draft, for a late first round pick in this year’s draft.

Nope, I believe the Lions hold the upper hand here.

We effectively control whether West Coast receives pick 2 or pick 20. No club in their right mind would turn down pick 2 for Oscar.

Now that we’ve seen where Band 2 compensation lands (e.g., Draper), we can easily structure Oscar’s contract to suit either outcome.

If the Eagles want pick 2, they’ll need to play ball with us.

 

[Nathan Barley]

And many players have earned life changing money post AFL career too.

I reckon if your sampled lets say 100 ex AFL players to have never won one, 99 would say they’d take the premiership over some money.

But again money isn’t everyone’s driving motivation; it’s obviously yours and no doubt Starcevich, Ah Chee and many others too that are enticed by the almighty dollar over premierships and loyalty (not in Ah Chee’s case). I think loyalty also earns respect than those selfish ones all about themselves.

Some money? I thought it was a life changing amount?

If Ah Chee can get an extra million dollars to set up for post career and still be a good chance for a premiership at a new club it sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me

 

[Elixuh]

Nope, I believe the Lions hold the upper hand here.

We effectively control whether West Coast receives pick 2 or pick 20. No club in their right mind would turn down pick 2 for Oscar.

Now that we’ve seen where Band 2 compensation lands (e.g., Draper), we can easily structure Oscar’s contract to suit either outcome.

If the Eagles want pick 2, they’ll need to play ball with us.

It depends how motivated they are to receive pick 2 against keeping OA.

 

[irel]

It depends how motivated they are to receive pick 2 against keeping OA.

So far, all signs point to the Eagles ushering Oscar out the door with the expectation of receiving a shiny, gift-wrapped pick 2 in return.

 

[morsie]

Some money? I thought it was a life changing amount?

If Ah Chee can get an extra million dollars to set up for post career and still be a good chance for a premiership at a new club it sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me

I expect that Ah Vhee has cultural and financial obligations to an extended definition of family

 

[bungalow_bill]

Nope, I believe the Lions hold the upper hand here.

We effectively control whether West Coast receives pick 2 or pick 20. No club in their right mind would turn down pick 2 for Oscar.

Now that we’ve seen where Band 2 compensation lands (e.g., Draper), we can easily structure Oscar’s contract to suit either outcome.

If the Eagles want pick 2, they’ll need to play ball with us.

 

[M Malice]

And many players have earned life changing money post AFL career too.

I reckon if your sampled lets say 100 ex AFL players to have never won one, 99 would say they’d take the premiership over some money.

But again money isn’t everyone’s driving motivation; it’s obviously yours and no doubt Starcevich, Ah Chee and many others too that are enticed by the almighty dollar over premierships and loyalty (not in Ah Chee’s case). I think loyalty also earns respect than those selfish ones all about themselves.

Personally I haven't lost any respect for players like Callum and Brandon and have zero inkling in me that they are being selfish and that the move away from the Lions is all about themselves.

In all likelihood the move is about setting their family up for the best life possible post their footy career and I would guarantee that the players they played with at the Lions will still consider them great life long friends and respect them immensely.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Dylan12

 

[mattsmob]

Ok life changing money then - which still could have been earnt post career too. Again, clearly life changing money isn't motivating for everyone and AFL footy is only one part of their working life; not all which so many assume that if its not earnt now, they'll be forever poor. But you also make it they're aren't already paid now.

Sounds like a losers mentality that AFL players need to make all of their money in a 8 - 12 /15 year window content with what they've done in their 20s and early 30s but I can see why so many are impressed with quick money in this day and age. It also doesn't seem to last for those same ones.

Anyway, I couldn't care less about Ah Chee and his need for money and success at the Crows. I'll continue supporting those Lions loyal to the cause from the moment they began their careers with us.

If I was in their positions I’d probably feel selfish for not taking the life changing money and setting my partner and family up for life. Nobody knows what drives the individual and the way you’re going about this honestly comes across as selfish and entitled

 

[Viceregal]

Motivations, like decisions, may be multivariate.

It is not as simple as if-I-move-clubs-for-money-I-am-a-greedy-scrooge-without-a-care-for-anyone-else-but-my-pocketbook, or if-I-move-clubs-for-opportunity-I-am-a-disloyal-showpony, etc ...

I can, at the same time, hold the following values as relevant to my decision making process ... (noting that 'my club' refers to both my current club and the same at the club that I might consider moving to)

• the money me and my family will use to create/maintain a life after my footballing career ends
• the fellowship and mateship I have with my team mates and other club associates
• the glory of winning flags
• the opportunity I have to develop my game within the system at my club
• the opportunity I have to play in my best position at my club
• how professionally run my club is
• the quality/quantity of Bailey Smith
  3

  Bailey Smith

  Age

  24

  Ht

  185cm

  Wt

  86kg

  Pos.

  M/F

  Career

  Season

  Last 5

  D

  18.3

  5star

  K

  8.5

  3star

  HB

  9.8

  5star

  M

  2.3

  2star

  T

  3.8

  5star

  CL

  2.7

  4star

  D

  19.8

  5star

  K

  9.6

  4star

  HB

  10.2

  5star

  M

  1.8

  2star

  T

  3.2

  4star

  CL

  3.2

  4star

  D

  14.8

  4star

  K

  7.6

  3star

  HB

  7.2

  5star

  M

  2.0

  3star

  T

  3.4

  5star

  CL

  1.6

  4star

  /Clayton Oliver
  13

  Clayton Oliver

  Age

  28

  Ht

  189cm

  Wt

  88kg

  Pos.

  Mid

  Career

  Season

  Last 5

  D

  27.8

  5star

  K

  9.5

  4star

  HB

  18.4

  5star

  M

  3.2

  3star

  T

  6.3

  5star

  CL

  6.3

  5star

  D

  25.1

  5star

  K

  11.1

  4star

  HB

  14.0

  5star

  M

  3.6

  4star

  T

  5.6

  5star

  CL

  5.9

  5star

  D

  19.2

  5star

  K

  4.6

  2star

  HB

  14.6

  5star

  M

  2.0

  3star

  T

  4.4

  5star

  CL

  3.8

  5star

  types at my club
• how likely it is the coach will give me a game
• the quality of the health and welfare staff at my club
• the non-defined post career benefits I may accrue at my club (one club player at Collingwood/Geelong vs spending your career at Freo or Saints or North)
• the amount of travel and the commensurate strain on my body and relationships
• the work life balance at my club
• the weather and lifestyle in my club's location
• the quality of the fans
• the training facilities
• the grounds we play at
• the quality of the groupies and how well the players are defended if needed
• who the coach is (and how stable the system)
• the club's reputation for dealing with previous players who have left/arrived
• how well my own personal energies fit with the egregore of the club
• how much scrutiny the players are under when they are away from the club
• etc etc etc

- oh and most importantly (of course) the quality of the BigFooty posters on my team's board and how well they keep their cool in the game day threads.

My rule of thumb is to treat the people leaving us with the same respect and judgement I apply to those who are arriving to join us. To despise Starc and Cal for leaving I would need to despise Dunks and Lachie and Cam for coming and already be ready to hate on Tom14 's new best friend and our (shorter) replacement Oscar.