List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[phantom13]

Caminiti is not better than Howard. He would be much better with Howard in the team.
It is the sum of the parts that make a good backline combo.
Our strongest line was Howard, Wilkie, Battle, Webster and a couple of smalls.

Howard taking the monsters ( Caminiti on the fence at training before the Bulldogs game saying Darcy had 15 cm on him) Wilks and Tauru the intercept markers, Aleer and Hammer taking the other forwards with Stocker looks so much better.
I feel that Howard is chronically underrated on this forum and while not a premier back, is a very accurate kick and if he does the simple stuff is very effective, and adds greatly to our structure of the backline.

If Darcy has 15cm on Camma he has 12 on Dougal and Camma has a much much better leap.

Camma is only better with Howard in the team this year because he didnt have Battle.

Camma, Aleer, Tauru and Wilkie is already 4 talls its just that Wikie can play small. We are never playing all 5.

Doogs is 30 by next season. Its either him OR camma not both and id rather Camma, he has a higher ceiling is better athletically and he can form a good core backline with the others down there for 10 years.

 

[thekizzler]

Hudson Garoni should have been given a go by now but GWS have 2 really good KPF options stuck behind their stars.

Max Gruzewski is a like a Barry hall type of lead up but shorter solid KPF at 192 cm.

And then Wade Derksen who is playing as a KPB this year but lead their goal kicking as a KPF last year. He's 197 and a big unit. Probably Shannon Neil from Geelong like.

Not dismissing your opinion but you got to be real careful rating VFL form whatsoever.

For a start, Zak Jones looks like a superstar at that level, and Hugh Boxshall is regularly in the best players despite still being a child.

If we are picking up players based on VFL form, I know a real good utility we could pick up.

• Has racked up 27-plus possessions in seven of their 10 games.
• Has four 30-plus possession games.

Drum roll........Ben Paton come on down.

Source: https://vfl.aflmstats.com/player/Ben_Paton

Point is that players that impact the AFL considerably from the VFL are a dime-a-dozen. Not a blanket rule but just look at the players yo-yo ing between dominating VFL and then barely getting a kick in the AFL seniors across nearly every club.

 

[billings2paddy]

Not dismissing your opinion but you got to be real careful rating VFL form whatsoever.

For a start, Zak Jones looks like a superstar at that level, and Hugh Boxshall is regularly in the best players despite still being a child.

If we are picking up players based on VFL form, I know a real good utility we could pick up.

• Has racked up 27-plus possessions in seven of their 10 games.
• Has four 30-plus possession games.

Drum roll........Ben Paton come on down.

Source: https://vfl.aflmstats.com/player/Ben_Paton

Point is that players that impact the AFL considerably from the VFL are a dime-a-dozen. Not a blanket rule but just look at the players yo-yo ing between dominating VFL and then barely getting a kick in the AFL seniors across nearly every club.

Who?

 

[Joffaboy]

If Darcy has 15cm on Camma he has 12 on Dougal and Camma has a much much better leap.

Camma is only better with Howard in the team this year because he didnt have Battle.

Camma, Aleer, Tauru and Wilkie is already 4 talls its just that Wikie can play small. We are never playing all 5.

Doogs is 30 by next season. Its either him OR camma not both and id rather Camma, he has a higher ceiling is better athletically and he can form a good core backline with the others down there for 10 years.

3 cm and 10 kilograms. Don't know what him being 30 is an issue.

I would have Hammer forward and then we have some flexibility as well.
I don't see Caminiti as a back as much as a forward. One of the small bonuses of this dire season is having Hammer learn his craft down back, can really help his development.
I fully believe we have missed the player that can handle the gorilla's and contest it to ground. Hammer. Wilkie, Web etc have tried hard but we are just undermanned.
Personally would have Howard before Caminiti down back.

 

[thekizzler]

Who?

Are you asking which players dominate VFL but struggle at AFL level?

 

[stavro#4]

I do find the posts hating on SOS pretty funny. He has only been employed as our list manager since Jan 2023. There are no major **** ups, Infact it looks pretty sound in review - so there can only be individual biases at play when you consider the below

So trade/FA/SSP wise:

IN

• Caminiti
• Henry
• Dow
• Macrae
• Carroll
• Boyd
• Bonner

OUT

• Gresham
• Billings
• Coffield
• Battle
• Membrey
• Tom Campbell

The rest of his list management decisions are draft pick trades that allow for significant drafting across 2023 & 2024

2023 Drafting

• Wilson
• Collard
• Hastie
• Garcia
• Shoenmaker
• O’Connell

2024 Drafting

• Travaglia
• Tauru
• Barrat
• Boxshall
• Dodson
• Said
• Armstrong

 

[phantom13]

3 cm and 10 kilograms. Don't know what him being 30 is an issue.

I would have Hammer forward and then we have some flexibility as well.
I don't see Caminiti as a back as much as a forward. One of the small bonuses of this dire season is having Hammer learn his craft down back, can really help his development.
I fully believe we have missed the player that can handle the gorilla's and contest it to ground. Hammer. Wilkie, Web etc have tried hard but we are just undermanned.
Personally would have Howard before Caminiti down back.

Its listed as 7kgs (and there is no ****ing way Camma is 85 and Howard is 92) and Darcys weight isnt the issue anyway.

Couldnt disagree more, Cammas production as a lock down fullback has been the equal of Dougals last 3 years, quite comfortably at that (and i was one of very few Dougal defenders).

Dougals age matters cause hes got probably 3 more years in any sort of fighting shape. Why bother? Were not gonna be contending then. Camma is equal now, with a higher ceiling and you give him time to develop some rapport and chemistry with a back 6 in Tauru and Aleer in particular that we can set and forget for 10 years.

Howard is depth at most for me.

 

[phantom13]

I do find the posts hating on SOS pretty funny. He has only been employed as our list manager since Jan 2023. There are no major **** ups, Infact it looks pretty sound in review - so there can only be individual biases at play when you consider the below

So trade/FA/SSP wise:

IN

• Caminiti
• Henry
• Dow
• Macrae
• Carroll
• Boyd
• Bonner

OUT

• Gresham
• Billings
• Coffield
• Battle
• Membrey
• Tom Campbell

The rest of his list management decisions are draft pick trades that allow for significant drafting across 2023 & 2024

2023 Drafting

• Wilson
• Collard
• Hastie
• Garcia
• Shoenmaker
• O’Connell

2024 Drafting

• Travaglia
• Tauru
• Barrat
• Boxshall
• Dodson
• Said
• Armstrong

The jury is absolutely out on the bolded FWIW. eg. Battle for Tauru looks good but its 3 games in.

 

[stavro#4]

The jury is absolutely out on the bolded FWIW. eg. Battle for Tauru looks good but its 3 games in.

Honestly that’s hardly the case.
Boyd and Bonner were and are 1 season stop gaps.

Carroll is a DFA free hit. Doesn’t hurt us in anyway shape or form.

Henry when fit and in form is best 18. His injury isn’t a poor reflection on him coming across.

Dow was a flyer on his talent in the midst of us gutting our senior depth. Been injured and cost minimal.

Membrey - we know he is a good player. But you wouldn’t be seeing Keeler or Heath if he was here

Battle… I’ll take Tauru.

 

[Joffaboy]

3 cm and 10 kilograms. Don't know what him being 30 is an issue.

I would have Hammer forward and then we have some flexibility as well.
I don't see Caminiti as a back as much as a forward. One of the small bonuses of this dire season is having Hammer learn his craft down back, can really help his development.
I fully believe we have missed the player that can handle the gorilla's and contest it to ground. Hammer. Wilkie, Web etc have tried hard but we are just undermanned.
Personally would have Howard before Caminiti down back.

What I looked up was Caminiti 85k and Howard 95ks, but by the bye, he is taller and heavier.
I don't rate Howard much but rate Caminiti even less as a key defender, or any type of defender for that matter, I only see him as a forward, I don't think his back craft is anywhere near Howard's.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[phantom13]

Honestly that’s hardly the case.
Boyd and Bonner were and are 1 season stop gaps.

Carroll is a DFA free hit. Doesn’t hurt us in anyway shape or form.

Henry when fit and in form is best 18. His injury isn’t a poor reflection on him coming across.

Dow was a flyer on his talent in the midst of us gutting our senior depth. Been injured and cost minimal.

Membrey - we know he is a good player. But you wouldn’t be seeing Keeler or Heath if he was here

Battle… I’ll take Tauru.

Boyd and Bonner as one season stop gaps doesnt make them wins, they contributed absolutely nothing (has Boyd even played a game?). Claim them as not a loss but you cant call that a win. Your logic is pretty flawed here too. They were stop gaps so therefore a win, but dumping Membrey so we could play the kids is also a win?

Same as Carroll, its not a win.

Henry has had 1? 2? Games to show so far, hence jury is out (if his form this season is anything to go by its a fail but we can hold).

Dow is the same as the first three, hes done **** all so far, call it square but it aint a win.

Im quite comfortable losing Membrey but weve gone backwards without him, hows that a win?

I noted Battle, but youre calling Tauru now? I suspect Tauru will be a win but its three games in. He might **** his back this off season. Id at least wait for him to play 20 games to call it.

At best youve got 3 potential wins (none that you can really claim yet).

And to be clear, im not beating up on SOS at all, he does seem to get slightly fixated on guys hes managed before but overall he seems okay, youre calling wins way way too early stav.

 

[stavro#4]

Boyd and Bonner as one season stop gaps doesnt make them wins, they contributed absolutely nothing (has Boyd even played a game?). Claim them as not a loss but you cant call that a win. Your logic is pretty flawed here too. They were stop gaps so therefore a win, but dumping Membrey so we could play the kids is also a win?

Same as Carroll, its not a win.

Henry has had 1? 2? Games to show so far, hence jury is out (if his form this season is anything to go by its a fail but we can hold).

Dow is the same as the first three, hes done **** all so far, call it square but it aint a win.

Im quite comfortable losing Membrey but weve gone backwards without him, hows that a win?

I noted Battle, but youre calling Tauru now? I suspect Tauru will be a win but its three games in. He might **** his back this off season. Id at least wait for him to play 20 games to call it.

At best youve got 3 potential wins (none that you can really claim yet).

And to be clear, im not beating up on SOS at all, he does seem to get slightly fixated on guys hes managed before but overall he seems okay, youre calling wins way way too early stav.

Where did I call Boyd or Bonner a win? Or label anyone a win?

I just spoke to what they were.

Against the backdrop of a heavy draft focus. There hasn’t been a poor move and the hate for SOS or criticism is rather unfounded

 

[phantom13]

Where did I call Boyd or Bonner a win? Or label anyone a win?

I just spoke to what they were.

Against the backdrop of a heavy draft focus. There hasn’t been a poor move and the hate for SOS or criticism is rather unfounded

So just accepting absolute mediocrity then.

If youre not calling any of those wins (which you shouldnt) and none of them are losses (which... id say some are) then SOS has done... nothing? And thats good?

I mean im saying jury is out on Henry, Dow and Carrol (i thin Bonner was a ****ing bust and Boyds probably gone by years end) so im not saying their all busts but how can you possibly claim they prove anything when theyve done nothing?

Theyre not poor moves, theyre nothing moves so far.

 

[stavro#4]

So just accepting absolute mediocrity then.

If youre not calling any of those wins (which you shouldnt) and none of them are losses (which... id say some are) then SOS has done... nothing? And thats good?

I mean im saying jury is out on Henry, Dow and Carrol (i thin Bonner was a ****ing bust and Boyds probably gone by years end) so im not saying their all busts but how can you possibly claim they prove anything when theyve done nothing?

Theyre not poor moves, theyre nothing moves so far.

He has cleared the list and ensured we hit the draft whilst creating significant cap space.

That cap space is now going to start being used with what we assume will be TDK & Aleer.

That’s what he has done and why the conversation with people potting him is laughable. He hasn’t hurt us in any way shape or form. He has created the youth heavy strategy and implementation of it.

 

[ThomasR]

What I looked up was Caminiti 85k and Howard 95ks, but by the bye, he is taller and heavier.
I don't rate Howard much but rate Caminiti even less as a key defender, or any type of defender for that matter, I only see him as a forward, I don't think his back craft is anywhere near Howard's.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Caminiti has the worst 1v1 loss rate of any key defender (min. 40 contests) since records have been kept (41%).

In his defence he is still only 21 and has never done a pre-season down back but I'd agree it's too early to be putting all our eggs in that basket.

Cordy will almost certainly be delisted. Letting Howard go as well would be an error IMO. Teams will just look to isolate Caminiti, Aleer, Tauru or whoever it is against their bigger and stronger key forwards. Maybe we see Aleer as someone who can do those jobs but I"m not really convinced

 

[Miha]

Probably think it’s a touch harsh to go at SOS for not or possibly not retaining Nas. His pull to go home has been there since before draft night. We were always going to face this with Nas

 

[gringo2011]

Not dismissing your opinion but you got to be real careful rating VFL form whatsoever.

For a start, Zak Jones looks like a superstar at that level, and Hugh Boxshall is regularly in the best players despite still being a child.

If we are picking up players based on VFL form, I know a real good utility we could pick up.

• Has racked up 27-plus possessions in seven of their 10 games.
• Has four 30-plus possession games.

Drum roll........Ben Paton come on down.

Source: https://vfl.aflmstats.com/player/Ben_Paton

Point is that players that impact the AFL considerably from the VFL are a dime-a-dozen. Not a blanket rule but just look at the players yo-yo ing between dominating VFL and then barely getting a kick in the AFL seniors across nearly every club.

Zac Jones doesn't look like a superstar at Sandy. He's the same as he is in the AFL an uneven erratic quick player who sometimes looks amazing and gets good numbers sometimes.

Easier to win ball than score at VFL level too. Max Hall didn't look that amazing at VFL level either. Would be our best player over the last 5 weeks or so.

Riley Bonner is the highest rated player in the VFL this season so I know what you are saying but it's one of those partly true statements.

Plenty make the transition over. Wilkie is a state league player who moved over. Maybe we should have bought back Tom Highmore for Battle.

Ben Paton is in that too good for VFL, not quite good enough to be best 22 in an AFL side zone now. Probably never recovered from his leg break and lost his momentum.

 

[akaifu]

I agree Hammer is a better defender than forward, but if we had Howard or another option in defence there is no doubt he would have played forward.

The thing about this is the question - is Hammer a better forward now that he has played a significant number of games as a defender?

That's something we definitely have to and probably will experiment with once we get Doug/Cordy back into the side

Hammer has played on a lot of really good AFL forwards and I'd imagine they would've taught him a lot of the nuances of playing forward; leading patterns, forward structure, communication etc.

Would love to see how these learnings materialise in his performance if he returns to the forward line

 

[Yawkey way]

Once upon a time I thought along the same lines as you about Nas.

I’m very firm he is a star based on what I’ve seen this year and if his last few weeks of being able to go on ball and have an impact become a consistent thing. We genuinely have the next Andrew McLeod.

I got some eye rolls and caustic comments a few years back when I gave my opinion on Gresham and a few others. No one likes hearing that their favourite's aren’t quite as good as they think.

For the record I think Nas is a gun and he’s quite capable of playing multiple positions and impacting games in different roles. He’s a gun, looking at AA, I’d love to keep him and we’re obviously better with him in the side.

However I don’t think he’s a full time starting midfielder, I don’t think he’s the next Andrew McLeod and I don’t believe he’ll just keep getting better. When a player is in AA form and has been given a license to run free and take the game on I’m a bit bemused about where the improvement is going to come from.

If Nas is to take it up and notch it will be in impact not possessions, I don’t see him as a mid so where do you play him ?. HBF, wing with more time forward ?. If we had a full team, where does he play ?. What’s he look like if the stand rule gets revised and they screw around with the kick out again ? I did think at one stage we could play him as a mainly outside who could muscle up bit and maybe have a Bont like impact but I think his build is against that, Bont is a monster. Maybe he just settles as a Whitfield type of player, a smooth moving gun with great skills.

Anyway I still believe we’ll get at least another 2 years, I may be wrong but I hope not.

 

[stavro#4]

I got some eye rolls and caustic comments a few years back when I gave my opinion on Gresham and a few others. No one likes hearing that their favourite's aren’t quite as good as they think.

For the record I think Nas is a gun and he’s quite capable of playing multiple positions and impacting games in different roles. He’s a gun, looking at AA, I’d love to keep him and we’re obviously better with him in the side.

However I don’t think he’s a full time starting midfielder, I don’t think he’s the next Andrew McLeod and I don’t believe he’ll just keep getting better. When a player is in AA and has been given a license to run free and take the game on I’m a bit bemused about where the improvement is going to come from.

If Nas is to take it up and notch it will be in impact not possessions, I don’t see him as a mid so where do you play him ?. HBF, wing with more time forward ?.

All I keep thinking after the last few weeks is that Nick Daicos type of role where he plays onball and gets heaps of cheapies forward of the centre from handball received.

 

[Nutsngum]

Caminiti has the worst 1v1 loss rate of any key defender (min. 40 contests) since records have been kept (41%).

In his defence he is still only 21 and has never done a pre-season down back but I'd agree it's too early to be putting all our eggs in that basket.

Which stats/article is this from? Google doesnt give very good results these days.

 

[Yawkey way]

All I keep thinking after the last few weeks is that Nick Daicos type of role where he plays onball and gets heaps of cheapies forward of the centre from handball received.

Yes I’ve added a bit more but yes I thought of a more dynamic Whitfield, I’d love to see him kick more goals and have more GA.

 

[phantom13]

He has cleared the list and ensured we hit the draft whilst creating significant cap space.

That cap space is now going to start being used with what we assume will be TDK & Aleer.

That’s what he has done and why the conversation with people potting him is laughable. He hasn’t hurt us in any way shape or form. He has created the youth heavy strategy and implementation of it.

Yeh… so the jury is out would be absolutely appropriate

 

[phantom13]

Caminiti has the worst 1v1 loss rate of any key defender (min. 40 contests) since records have been kept (41%).

In his defence he is still only 21 and has never done a pre-season down back but I'd agree it's too early to be putting all our eggs in that basket.

Cordy will almost certainly be delisted. Letting Howard go as well would be an error IMO. Teams will just look to isolate Caminiti, Aleer, Tauru or whoever it is against their bigger and stronger key forwards. Maybe we see Aleer as someone who can do those jobs but I"m not really convinced

I’m quite sure at some point Camma was also leading intercept marks as well (first few weeks when we weren’t pure shit).

Teams try to isolate defenders every week, save for Sam Taylor and Harris Andrews, forwards win, rules and modern footy help them enormously.

Camma lockdown, tauru and leek intercept, Wilkie the hybrid. Howard’s offering nothing more.

 

[ThomasR]

Which stats/article is this from? Google doesnt give very good results these days.

I keep my own records, will try to make it more accessible one day