Expansion 3rd Western Australian club

[Coolangatta]

The AFL had a chance to strengthen NM’s ties with Canberra back in the mid 2000’s, but they encouraged them to ditch the capital in favour of the Gold Coast - we all know the rest. Despite their efforts in playing Canberra home games over a number of years, NM failed to gain much traction there (way less support than what GWS have there now) and this provided some extra incentive for them to leave Canberra. NM’s decision didn’t go down well in Canberra at all. Your proposal might have had a more positive reception back then, although now you have:

a) a club that doesn’t have fond memories about Canberra, is in a vastly improved financial position, and resolute about remaining a Melbourne-based club.

b) a region that rejected NM once before and virtually said “they’re not welcome back”.

Not exactly a match made in heaven

Yeah, I think that ship has sailed.

Looking at things logically, and assuming Top End round doesn't happen, with the 11 home, 11 away, 1 gather round to remain the status quo, I think the best expansion path forward looks like this.

19. Tasmania
20. Canberra

Giants play 2 Newcastle games, Suns keep playing 2 in Darwin since the Hawks will likely play 3 in Cairns. Saints play 1 in Auckland. Roos back in Victoria; Melbourne, too.

21. Newcastle
22. Cairns

Newcastle play 2 games per year in Auckland as they're starting out, Saints back to Victoria, Hawks take their 3 Cairns games to Darwin, Suns commit to Gold Coast full-time, ditto Giants in WS.

23. New Zealand
24. Darwin

You're pretty much done after that. North Brisbane Kangaroos if a second Brisbane team is required.

 

[stallon]

Yeah, I think that ship has sailed.

Looking at things logically, and assuming Top End round doesn't happen, with the 11 home, 11 away, 1 gather round to remain the status quo, I think the best expansion path forward looks like this.

19. Tasmania
20. Canberra

Giants play 2 Newcastle games, Suns keep playing 2 in Darwin since the Hawks will likely play 3 in Cairns. Saints play 1 in Auckland. Roos back in Victoria; Melbourne, too.

21. Newcastle
22. Cairns

Newcastle play 2 games per year in Auckland as they're starting out, Saints back to Victoria, Hawks take their 3 Cairns games to Darwin, Suns commit to Gold Coast full-time, ditto Giants in WS.

23. New Zealand
24. Darwin

You're pretty much done after that. North Brisbane Kangaroos if a second Brisbane team is required.

If we are adding that many teams, a WA team really has to be one of them. The amount of travel and time away from home the WA sides in particular do is ridiculous, and the state is easily big enough for it.
WA will only ever have 1 sport, the likes of NSW and QLD will always have their Rugby, along with any in-roads the AFL make, splitting the state.

SA too probably should have a 3rd team too.
Honestly, if we are going to 24 like you have put, 2 vic teams should have to relocate(or do some merging), to allow a 3rd in WA and SA. The AFL owns a bunch of clubs, they can make it happen. Its not a Vic comp anymore.
24 is probably too many teams even, WA should be 20 or 21st though regardless

 

[Coolangatta]

If we are adding that many teams, a WA team really has to be one of them. The amount of travel and time away from home the WA sides in particular do is ridiculous, and the state is easily big enough for it.
WA will only ever have 1 sport, the likes of NSW and QLD will always have their Rugby, along with any in-roads the AFL make, splitting the state.

SA too probably should have a 3rd team too.
Honestly, if we are going to 24 like you have put, 2 vic teams should have to relocate(or do some merging), to allow a 3rd in WA and SA. The AFL owns a bunch of clubs, they can make it happen. Its not a Vic comp anymore.
24 is probably too many teams even, WA should be 20 or 21st though regardless

If WA3 isn't team 20, they're certainly not going to be the 21st. The only reason WA3 is being talked about is to even up the number of teams.

Do you really believe that the AFL would've considered expanding the 18 team competition at the moment if Tasmania was already in it? Do you think WA3 would've been talked about as the 19th side? No way. If WA3 isn't team 20, they could be team 22, and again, it'll be to even up the number of teams if the AFL decides to expand in any of the NT, NZ, NSW, or QLD as a 21st team.

I agree with you that WA3 and SA3 should have third teams, but relocating two Vic clubs is going to be difficult. Cunnington Cartel makes a good case for keeping North out of Canberra, I think that bridge has burned.

Maybe you could just give Canberra their own team as the 20th.

For teams 21 and 22, you could still have third teams in all of NSW, QLD, WA, and SA, with perhaps North relocating to NQLD and becoming the North Queensland Kangaroos, and the Saints relocating to Newcastle, with two new teams in Adelaide and Perth.

It'll be like what they tried to do with Gold Coast but working this time (I assume that if the Roos moved there, another Vic club would've moved to Western Sydney, probably the Bulldogs).

For teams 23 and 24, NZ and NT.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

The AFL had a chance to strengthen NM’s ties with Canberra back in the mid 2000’s, but they encouraged them to ditch the capital in favour of the Gold Coast - we all know the rest. Despite their efforts in playing Canberra home games over a number of years, NM failed to gain much traction there (way less support than what GWS have there now) and this provided some extra incentive for them to leave Canberra. NM’s decision didn’t go down well in Canberra at all. Your proposal might have had a more positive reception back then, although now you have:

a) a club that doesn’t have fond memories about Canberra, is in a vastly improved financial position, and resolute about remaining a Melbourne-based club.

b) a region that rejected NM once before and virtually said “they’re not welcome back”.

Not exactly a match made in heaven

Absolutely agree - Canberra doesn’t want Norths and Norths don’t want Canberra. A match indeed made in heaven!

I just can’t see the Norths members and their Directors, agreeing to relocation - especially since they have more $ now, than previously when they needed to sell games interstate. Also I understand their constitution has been changed to give members more power over relocation decisions - someone from Norths may have more information on this.

I think Victoria has too many teams in a national competition, but it is what it is. I just can’t see the members of even the weaker AFL teams in Victoria ever agreeing to a relocation, and the AFL Commission seems to have lost its appetite for forced mergers/ relocation.

The best that will happen is that these weaker Victorian clubs will sell 2-3 home games, and when they are financially more secure, they will come back home to Victoria to play all their games.

 

[Bjo187]

The AFL had a chance to strengthen NM’s ties with Canberra back in the mid 2000’s, but they encouraged them to ditch the capital in favour of the Gold Coast - we all know the rest. Despite their efforts in playing Canberra home games over a number of years, NM failed to gain much traction there (way less support than what GWS have there now) and this provided some extra incentive for them to leave Canberra. NM’s decision didn’t go down well in Canberra at all. Your proposal might have had a more positive reception back then, although now you have:

a) a club that doesn’t have fond memories about Canberra, is in a vastly improved financial position, and resolute about remaining a Melbourne-based club.

b) a region that rejected NM once before and virtually said “they’re not welcome back”.

Not exactly a match made in heaven

That will be going on over 30 years ago. The same administrators wouldn't be around and a whole new generation of supporters will be in Canberra by then that wouldn't even remember the experiment back in the 90s. Plus there is a difference embracing a fly in team compared to your very own team representing your city, it would make both North and Canberra stronger as a club compared to having them split into two.

All this being said I agree it's likely a pipe dream with norths constitution, but from an AFL perspective, which is meant to be why the commission exists, I feel it would be a great arrangement and strengthen the competition considerably.

On the other suggestion of 24 teams, that's absurd sorry coolangata I know it's your passion, but 18 was too many, let alone 19, but 24? Even the English premier league doesn't have that many. Clubs will go 200 years without a flag and we'll have a league filled with about 6 clubs nobody gives a s**t about. Plus the cost on the competition will be excessive.

 

[Canberra Pear]

That will be going on over 30 years ago. The same administrators wouldn't be around and a whole new generation of supporters will be in Canberra by then that wouldn't even remember the experiment back in the 90s. Plus there is a difference embracing a fly in team compared to your very own team representing your city, it would make both North and Canberra stronger as a club compared to having them split into two.

All this being said I agree it's likely a pipe dream with norths constitution, but from an AFL perspective, which is meant to be why the commission exists, I feel it would be a great arrangement and strengthen the competition considerably.

On the other suggestion of 24 teams, that's absurd sorry coolangata I know it's your passion, but 18 was too many, let alone 19, but 24? Even the English premier league doesn't have that many. Clubs will go 200 years without a flag and we'll have a league filled with about 6 clubs nobody gives a s**t about. Plus the cost on the competition will be excessive.

I'm not advocating for relocation, because there's a lot of complications and I think we'd do better from a fresh start.

But if North relocated to Canberra, I think we'd embrace them. They haven't played in Canberra since 2006. I don't know any Canberran that has any ill will towards them.

If North, or any Victorian team, relocated to Canberra, I'd buy a membership tomorrow.

 

[Coolangatta]

That will be going on over 30 years ago. The same administrators wouldn't be around and a whole new generation of supporters will be in Canberra by then that wouldn't even remember the experiment back in the 90s. Plus there is a difference embracing a fly in team compared to your very own team representing your city, it would make both North and Canberra stronger as a club compared to having them split into two.

All this being said I agree it's likely a pipe dream with norths constitution, but from an AFL perspective, which is meant to be why the commission exists, I feel it would be a great arrangement and strengthen the competition considerably.

On the other suggestion of 24 teams, that's absurd sorry coolangata I know it's your passion, but 18 was too many, let alone 19, but 24? Even the English premier league doesn't have that many. Clubs will go 200 years without a flag and we'll have a league filled with about 6 clubs nobody gives a s**t about. Plus the cost on the competition will be excessive.

Maybe but if WA3 gets a team like you want then SA3 will want one as well and it wouldn’t be a Vic relocated club.

If the AFL went ACT relocation, WA3, then added NT and SA3 and stopped at 22 I’d be fine with that. Less teams “no one gives a s**t about” that way.

 

[Bjo187]

Maybe but if WA3 gets a team like you want then SA3 will want one as well and it wouldn’t be a Vic relocated club.

If the AFL went ACT relocation, WA3, then added NT and SA3 and stopped at 22 I’d be fine with that. Less teams “no one gives a s**t about” that way.

I don't think we'll see a need for going past 20 for about 50 years, if they get 20 right, which they could but won't, because they won't have the balls to push for a Vic club to be relocated.

Therefore we will be left with either Canberra or w.a3 off the table. I actually feel if w.a3 doesn't come now it never will, they will have missed the boat. Canberra they could effectively go to at any time later as the population will just get closer and closer to supporting a team. That being said, if you twisted my arm it would still be Canberra then w.a3 as my preference, but both have their pros.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Absolutely agree - Canberra doesn’t want Norths and Norths don’t want Canberra. A match indeed made in heaven!

I just can’t see the Norths members and their Directors, agreeing to relocation - especially since they have more $ now, than previously when they needed to sell games interstate. Also I understand their constitution has been changed to give members more power over relocation decisions - someone from Norths may have more information on this.

I think Victoria has too many teams in a national competition, but it is what it is. I just can’t see the members of even the weaker AFL teams in Victoria ever agreeing to a relocation, and the AFL Commission seems to have lost its appetite for forced mergers/ relocation.

The best that will happen is that these weaker Victorian clubs will sell 2-3 home games, and when they are financially more secure, they will come back home to Victoria to play all their games.

North’s constitution states that for the club to approve any proposals for relocation outside of Victoria then a minimum of 75% of voting members need to vote in support of the proposal. Ditto for merger proposals.

Practically impossible for any future proposals to be approved under those circumstances unless the only other alternative was shutting up shop. As Boomer once said “if a bomb hit Melbourne the two things that would survive would be cockroaches and the NMFC”.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Like a majority of posters here, and in other related threads, I think the 20th team will be between WA3 and Canberra. Each has its merits, and a decision by the AFL commission on either WA3 or Canberra, would not surprise.

NT/ North Australia is probably the fan (and media) favourite as seen in a recent fan survey, but as shown by multiple posters across various AFL expansion threads, NT/North Australia just doesn’t stack up against WA3 (or Canberra). The only way NT stands a chance is through a massive $ injection by the federal government, along the lines of what PNG is getting for a NRL team.

 

[Coolangatta]

I don't think we'll see a need for going past 20 for about 50 years, if they get 20 right, which they could but won't, because they won't have the balls to push for a Vic club to be relocated.

Therefore we will be left with either Canberra or w.a3 off the table. I actually feel if w.a3 doesn't come now it never will, they will have missed the boat. Canberra they could effectively go to at any time later as the population will just get closer and closer to supporting a team. That being said, if you twisted my arm it would still be Canberra then w.a3 as my preference, but both have their pros.

Right but if you’re saying that we don’t need to go beyond 20 in 50 years then you’d be happy with a max of 22 teams? Just not 24, I gather.

I disagree on now or never in WA but not ACT. ACT could very well miss out completely, too.

I also disagree on waiting 50 years if WA3 gets up. Why not Canberra about 15 years after WA3 then a third team in SA?

I guess that leaves NT off the table because we can’t have 24 teams. Or SA3 misses out.

No matter which way you slice it, someone’s missing out, no matter whether they go to 22 or 24 teams. I totally get why, for example, there’s more support for WA3 and SA3 getting third teams before NSW or QLD ever do.

If they had have been able to ship off the Roos to GC and Dogs to WS we might have been able to nick the Saints off to Canberra and then gone Tassie 17, WA3 18, NT 19 and SA3 20, then call it a day at a number that many agree should be the max.

 

[Bjo187]

Right but if you’re saying that we don’t need to go beyond 20 in 50 years then you’d be happy with a max of 22 teams? Just not 24, I gather.

I disagree on now or never in WA but not ACT. ACT could very well miss out completely, too.

I also disagree on waiting 50 years if WA3 gets up. Why not Canberra about 15 years after WA3 then a third team in SA?

I guess that leaves NT off the table because we can’t have 24 teams. Or SA3 misses out.

No matter which way you slice it, someone’s missing out, no matter whether they go to 22 or 24 teams. I totally get why, for example, there’s more support for WA3 and SA3 getting third teams before NSW or QLD ever do.

If they had have been able to ship off the Roos to GC and Dogs to WS we might have been able to nick the Saints off to Canberra and then gone Tassie 17, WA3 18, NT 19 and SA3 20, then call it a day at a number that many agree should be the max.

It's more I simply don't think n.t, s.a3 or any qld or nsw 3rd team are close to either adding anything to the competition, or being financially viable.

So basically what I'm saying is, if there is no relocation of a Vic team (which is likely), then either one of w.a 3 or Canberra miss out. Now being that w.a already has two teams the logical missing area with representation is Canberra, which is one of the reasons I lean more towards them as there is more of a need (despite w.a3 creating good balance to the comp).

 

[Giant YoYo]

Canberra doesn't actually add that much to the GWS fanbase. We have 6k members. Less than Hawthorn has in Launceston. That's less than 20% of the total membership base.

And the vast majority of those members don't actually care that much for the Giants. They're game access members (like me).

A Canberra team is actually one of the best things that could happen to the Giants. Would force them to actually focus on their primary market without the constant Canberra relocation jabs. The Giants' current split personality is hurting their brand and growth in Sydney.

Thank you. It's very refreshing hearing from people who actually attend games at Manuka rather than the posters who say "move GWS to Canberra" as they say the Giants have more fans there.

This is fair, but the market honestly isnt there in NSW yet. If this conversation was happening in 10-15 years time it might be different, but we dont know whats gonna happen in that space.

The Giants won't grow as quickly until they focus on their home region. 6-8 weeks of no home games in Western Sydney after 2 home games into a brand new season does not help in the slightest. It's a handbrake very few actually want to acknowledge and it shows. Though, we can't do much about it as the AFL has signed off on this current arrangement.

 

[Coolangatta]

It's more I simply don't think n.t, s.a3 or any qld or nsw 3rd team are close to either adding anything to the competition, or being financially viable.

So basically what I'm saying is, if there is no relocation of a Vic team (which is likely), then either one of w.a 3 or Canberra miss out. Now being that w.a already has two teams the logical missing area with representation is Canberra, which is one of the reasons I lean more towards them as there is more of a need (despite w.a3 creating good balance to the comp).

Yeah, while I think the AFL has thought about the 20th team, I don’t think they’ve thought about if they’ll ever go beyond that. Why should they? It’s so far away, leave that up to me . Just in case 20 is the max, ACT should be team 20.

If they ever go beyond 20, then I do think WA3 should be one of them, but you said yourself that WA3 probably misses out if they aren’t team 20. I bet you if the AFL expand beyond 20 teams, WA3 and SA3 will not be on their radar.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Thank you. It's very refreshing hearing from people who actually attend games at Manuka rather than the posters who say "move GWS to Canberra" as they say the Giants have more fans there.


The Giants won't grow as quickly until they focus on their home region. 6-8 weeks of no home games in Western Sydney after 2 home games into a brand new season does not help in the slightest. It's a handbrake very few actually want to acknowledge and it shows. Though, we can't do much about it as the AFL has signed off on this current arrangement.

I agree that’s a huge issue and a massive momentum killer. As a Giants fan, which venue would you prefer your home games to be played at while the show is on?

 

[Coolangatta]

It's more I simply don't think n.t, s.a3 or any qld or nsw 3rd team are close to either adding anything to the competition, or being financially viable.

So basically what I'm saying is, if there is no relocation of a Vic team (which is likely), then either one of w.a 3 or Canberra miss out. Now being that w.a already has two teams the logical missing area with representation is Canberra, which is one of the reasons I lean more towards them as there is more of a need (despite w.a3 creating good balance to the comp).

Also it’s not just financial viability, your concern is teams not winning flags for 200 years and teams no one gives a s**t about.

I think there’s two solutions to that: conferences and prioritising “give a s**t” over not give a s**t first. So TAS, WA3, SA3, ACT, and NT would all feature before, say, NZ, 3rd NSW and 3rd QLD would.

But it’s all just fun speculation. I don’t think the AFL has a long term plan. I genuinely think they don’t even know if there’ll be more than 20 teams.

This is why you can’t discount the NT. It is by far the popular choice, and I’m sure they know that it isn’t financially viable, but if they find a way, I think they’ll be team 20.

I think if you asked the average clueless person, they’d prefer ACT and WA3 to miss out instead of NT if 20 is the last team.

I don’t agree with it but I guarantee you that’s the sentiment and the AFL would probably prefer it too as long as someone else pays for it.

The only thing that could be worse imo than ACT or WA3 never happening is both of them never happening because of this misguided notion that the NT “completes” the national profile of the game while the national capital doesn’t.

 

[Giant YoYo]

I agree that’s a huge issue and a massive momentum killer. As a Giants fan, which venue would you prefer your home games to be played at while the show is on?

The Giants could play anywhere in metro Sydney and I'd still happily attend. Newcastle is closer than Canberra, though, I understand there are many challenges there (and it is within the Swans academy area where the Swans have played pre-season games).

Happy for games to be played at Blacktown ISP (if it meets AFL standard) or failing that, Henson Park (also Swans academy area). I understand Accor isn't liked by Giants or Swans fans but I could live with it being played there.

Will be attending a game or two (outside of the Sydney derby) at the SCG as a neutral during the 6-8 weeks Giants hiatus but it isn't ideal from a growth perspective.

 

[Bjo187]

The Giants could play anywhere in metro Sydney and I'd still happily attend. Newcastle is closer than Canberra, though, I understand there are many challenges there (and it is within the Swans academy area where the Swans have played pre-season games).

Happy for games to be played at Blacktown ISP (if it meets AFL standard) or failing that, Henson Park (also Swans academy area). I understand Accor isn't liked by Giants or Swans fans but I could live with it being played there.

Will be attending a game or two (outside of the Sydney derby) at the SCG as a neutral during the 6-8 weeks Giants hiatus but it isn't ideal from a growth perspective.

Do you have any new potential converts picked out to take along to round 1 v the pies ? I remember you introduced about 10 people to the giants last year as a new fan yourself.

 

[Giant YoYo]

Do you have any new potential converts picked out to take along to round 1 v the pies ? I remember you introduced about 10 people to the giants last year as a new fan yourself.

Good memory.

It was 8 of us, the 8 are being cemented and enjoying it all the more with each round. Mum wants a guernsey for next season, for example, which I find hilarious. Never thought mum would enjoy a sport as much as she does. My niece and nephew have taken to it really well, moreso after a 8 week AFL clinic.

I have a few others who are open to it and want to come (namely NRL friends) but I don't know if they'll be coming to opening round as there's no free seats where we are in the members area. It would be the best game to get them to come but I couldn't have us all segregated as it's not the same (especially as a first timer if you don't understand the game).

Challenge for me next season is introducing more people to AFL while getting us to all sit together.

Edit: Actually, it's closer to 9 of us in total, my aunt went to an AFLW game and loved it (she does not live in Sydney so cannot be a regular attendee). These are new people that have never watched AFL. Thought I did well last season but I can grow the numbers higher next season.

My aunt, like I, couldn't distinguish between the two leagues and thought it was the same as NRL. I know it may shock people, not everyone who lives in Sydney likes NRL

 

[Bjo187]

Good memory.

It was 8, the 8 are being cemented and enjoying it all the more with each round. Mum wants a guernsey for next season, for example, which I find hilarious. Never thought mum would enjoy a sport as much as she does. My niece and nephew have taken to it really well, moreso after a 8 week AFL clinic.

I have a few others who are open to it and want to come (namely NRL friends) but I don't know if they'll be coming to opening round as there's no free seats where we are in the members area. It would be the best game to get them to come but I couldn't have us all segregated as it's not the same (especially as a first timer if you don't understand the game).

Challenge for me next season is introducing more people to AFL while getting us to all sit together.

Great stuff. Do what I used to do when I brought non footy friends along. Go in and take your seat with your fellow member friends/ family, grab their membership tickets off them once they are seated, go out to go to the toilet or whatever, hand 2 or 3 of the cards to your non member friends waiting outside and they can flash them to the guy checking at the top of the section on their way in.

For fully booked out member reserved seats it can be difficult for packed out games, but even as an Essendon reserved seat member I was able to do that for 90 percent of games with no issues. If I had one or two non member friends I wanted to sit with me, it was relatively easy and I'd imagine even easier for giants games.

* they'll still have to buy a general admission ticket to enter the stadium, but they are relatively cheap.

 

[Giant YoYo]

Great stuff. Do what I used to do when I brought non footy friends along. Go in and take your seat with your fellow member friends/ family, grab their membership tickets off them once they are seated, go out to go to the toilet or whatever, hand 2 or 3 of the cards to your non member friends waiting outside and they can flash them to the guy checking at the top of the section on their way in.

For fully booked out member reserved seats it can be difficult for packed out games, but even as an Essendon reserved seat member I was able to do that for 90 percent of games if I had one or two non member friends I wanted to sit with me in my good seating area.

Thank you for the suggestion.

Will endeavour to get down for the Essendon v Giants game at Marvel as I quite like the Essendon fanbase (despite what you read online). Feel very comfortable with this fanbase and have a soft spot for this club.

Probably off topic, though, happy to hear what your Giants connection is

 

[Bjo187]

Thank you for the suggestion.

Will endeavour to get down for the Essendon v Giants game at Marvel as I quite like the Essendon fanbase (despite what you read online). Feel very comfortable with this fanbase and have a soft spot for this club.

Probably off topic, though, happy to hear what your Giants connection is

Nothing major, just been my second team for a while I like the way they go about it and also I know two people at the club that hold very high positions there that I like to see do well. Actually, I probably annoy them a bit with all my ideas.

 

[Giant YoYo]

I know two people at the club that hold very high positions there that I like to see do well. Actually, I probably annoy them a bit with all my ideas.

Brilliant. Keep at it