Past #50: Ben Brown - Traded to Melbourne with 2020 #28 + 2021 R4 for 2020 #26 #33 + 2021 R4(Bris) - 130 gms / 287 gls - thanks Ben

NMFC49 said:
Geeze that's a bit harsh mate. I witnessed BB spill several uncontested chest marks this season. So you reckon LDU, Simpkin, Scott, Zurhar, Polec are all plodders.
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That's because opposition defenders pay absolutely no respect to anyone else in our forward 50 and hang their #1 and #2 best defender of Brown.

They put so much work in him before, during and after a play......that takes a toll...

Those you quoted aren't plodders. We all know who the comfortable underperformers are.
 
iSmack said:
Unfortunately, the plodders on our list and game style have devalued Ben's worth and consequently screwed him (value) and the club (pick).

If Melbourne can move the ball relatively quickly, kick accurately and have effective crumbers then Ben will succeed....


A forward line with Tony Lockett, Wayne Carey and Malcolm Blight wouldn't get a kick the way we performed this year.
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A lot of people forgetting how good Carey was.
He took marks when he was standing next to the guy kicking it.
He just needed it kicked in his general vicinity to get the ball.
 
Why on earth would we move Brown on due to age profile and then bring Tom McDonald in?

Similar age and not close to as good.

Astounding.
 
King Corey said:
Media and Melbourne trying to drag us into a world where pick 25 would be a best case return..

I hope like heck we're smarter than that.
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We might try and be smarter but well, we've hardly helped our position in the slightest.

Nothing would surprise me anymore.

We might get Liam Anthony back.
 
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Dees dont even want to give up 25 for Brown?

* me are they actually serious? They'd be robbing us if that was the trade.
 
I think people will be shocked when they realise what we will accept.
 
DarkPhoenix said:
Dees dont even want to give up 25 for Brown?

fu** me are they actually serious? They'd be robbing us if that was the trade.
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If they don't want to give up #25, then they don't want Brown.

Brady, be very public about this. I know FA works differently but in a world where Daniher is #7, Williams is #10 and Adelaide think Crouch is worth #2, Brown is worth #25 PLUS extras.

Brown isn't one of us at the moment. He wants to play for someone else. He rejected our offer. We owe him no favours.

This deal may define what we have with Brady Rawlings calling the shots.
 
Snake_Baker said:
I like you Tas, but you're no football zen master mate.
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I never claimed to be. Footy is a pretty simple game, always has been and still is today.

1) Ben requires a fast rebounding long kicking defence & midfield game plan to cash in on his running capacity, which allows him the ability to get separation from congestion. and become a viable target. This is basically Brad Scott's game plan, and it is Ben Brown's strength.
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Fast rebounding long kicking defence and midfield? When? 2012?

Brown took more contested marks on average than Cameron, more than Kennedy.
Lets look at 2019 between Brown and Hawkins... 2.8 marks I50 vs 2.9, both had 1.6 contested marks on average.
How about Jack Riewoldt? 2.8 vs 2.5 M50, 1.6 vs 1.4 CMs
Tom Lynch 3.1 M50s and 2.2 CMs has probably the greatest differential but if you would switch Brown and Lynch I think both their stats would change significantly.

These are the two fastest rebounding teams. Port had Dixon at FF, he took 1.6 marks inside F50 and 1.6 contested marks.

2) If Ben does not mark the ball then the opposition usually pounce on the ball and swing back in to attacking positions very quickly (ignorance of which has typically lead to ridiculous criticisms of flankers & pocket players that have been caught out of position and/or outnumbered)
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Brown scored a fair few goals from ground balls so to suggest he doesn't do anything once the ball hits the ground would suggest you do not watch a lot of our games.

I don't think defensive pressure was his fortee but I think you are blaming Brown for the side in general's lack of defensive structure, it wasn't really our game plan... you can't tell me Hall, Wood, etc were the go to pressure squad.

2019 stats (except Daniher)
Brown 0.9 tackles I50, 0.7 Intercepts, 1.6 1%ers.
Riewoldt 1.1 tackles I50, 1.1 Intercepts, 2.1 1%ers.
Hawkins 1.0 tackles I50, 0.6 Intercepts, 1.5 1%ers.
Cameron 0.5 tackles I50, 1.4 Intercepts, 1.5 1%ers.
Lynch 0.8 tackles I50, 0.9 Intercepts, 2.1 1%ers.
Kennedy 1.1 tackles I50, 0.7 Intercepts, 1.1 1%ers.
Dixon 1.2 tackles I50, 0.8 Intercepts, 2.4 1%ers.
Daniher (2017 his only good year) 0.5 tackles I50, 1.0 Intercepts, 1.5% 1%ers.

Am I missing anyone of note? There is some variance that supports how different these players play but I don't see the kind of gulf that would suggest he does nothing when the ball hits the ground. I also have to highlight these stats do not reflect that these other players play for a far superior team than Brown has.

3) A new game plan was implemented in 2020 based upon holding the defensive structure and retaining possession of the football, thereby minimizing the risk of the amount and type of turnovers & scoring rebounds that have been a significant issue in the past.
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It doesn't say much for the brains trust who stacked the back line with Williams, Pittard, Macmillan and co and thought we would be retaining possession of the ball under pressure. Because that was what we were rocking as the s**t hit the fan.

The slower you move the ball the more pressure is put on you and the better your skills need to be, you have to consistently be able to kick and handpass to advantage or else you turn over the ball, and that is what happened to us.

It is no surprise we moved on the guys who had poor skills, but I am not sure how that is Brown's fault. Our press was horseshit too, I am not forgiving our forwards, not by any stretch, but we sucked across the board.

If you are going to successfully retain the ball, you need defenders and mids who can kick and you need them to be able to hold up under pressure, if guys can kick and retain the ball... they are generally better at hitting forward targets as well and the easiest way to stop a defensive rebound is if your forwards mark the ball. Richmond will often blaze away long with the chaos ball and their tall forwards will contest, but it is their fleet of smaller players who press well and lock the ball in, when they have the ball much closer to goal their repeat entries are not blazes, that is where they use their ability to hit targets in the forward 50.

Brown's last game this year was round 10, do you think our forward pressure was better after round 10? It wasn't.

4) Another residual factor of this strategy is that KPP's are required to play in a more stay at home role (due to less space appearing up field and the retention of possession), causing the opposition to also hold their defensive structure, and this significantly impacts upon a player with Browns:
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One normally is, Riewoldt normally roams a lot further as does Cameron which is probably why they are significantly higher in terms of intercepts and 1%ers.

We would still have been horseshit if we had Dixon and Lynch in our forward 50, Port were one of the better teams this year and lost to Richmond by a kick in the PF, but they went inside 50 58 times and kicked 6 goals, Dixon kicked one from his four marks. At the end of the day, you need to be able to score a lot easier. Port had 58 inside 50s vs 44 but had 10 scoring shots vs 16. Richmond had a fairly ordinary game but still win on the road in a PF because over a sustained period of time class beats grunt almost every time, it is why the Swans chronically underachieved with their negative football as did Ross Lyon whomever he coached.


i) Inability to profit from his running ability in to space to get separation.

ii) An Inherently poor centre of gravity due to an increase in congested marking scenarios, thereby further limiting his impact. When his space is shut down, he gets buffeted off the ball far too easily. In other words, Ben has the aerodynamic integrity of a paper plane once he attracts body contact. He is kaput as an offensive marking target once this occurs, and if we're going to turn the ball over, we wwant to do it as deeply in our forward line as possible..

As a result, the Ben Brown at North in 2020 is required to play under a vastly different strategy than those he encountered in 2014-2019.

He's not going to be the same player he was for us in the future, as he was in the past. This is why the initial contract was taken away and re-assessed.
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lol what is this rubbish mate? There were only a few forwards who took more contested marks than Brown.

If the system is to crab the ball around the park along the boundaries then dump a high hang time inside 50 on the top of his head then that is a s**t system that that isn't going to get you anywhere.

Richmond, Geelong, Brisbane, Port... these team rebound from defense into attack very quickly.

The difference between the good teams and the s**t teams is ball use. Our average disposals per inside 50 isn't that far off the good teams but there is light and day difference in terms of delivery. That doesn't mean lace out paces in open space, it means just sticking the ball to the advantage of with a kick that isn't a high hang time on top of his head.

Our delivery wasn't just garbage to Brown, it was garbage to everyone. Larkey, who has a great pair of hands, only averaged 1.1 contested marks this year and only 1.0 marks inside 50, ******* Carey would have struggled.

He is never going to be a Dixon or Lynch but I think he would be heaps better in a good team, not because I think he will get more easy ball but he would get a whole lot more opportunity to compete.

I don't think Melbourne is a good team, but that is Brown's problem, not mine.

I think some posters here are doing some mental gymnastics to try and justify why we acted in the manner we did.
 
ChoppyGun said:
I think people will be shocked when they realise what we will accept.
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After getting our pants pulled down with the Preuss trade, it will take a lot to shock me.
 
archereleven said:
I dont care anymore.

I just want to walk him to the PSD and fu** the GoDees. They are peanuts playing hardball with Brown, he will make them so much better.

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
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He's a first tall, they're looking to get him for second/third tall money, and then screw us on the deal.

Brady has asked members to trust the club so that's what I'll do. I'll trust that if 25 is what is offered we play harder ball than that.

We played hardball on the first two negotiations here, I see no reason to stop.

25 is not enough.
 
Only Forwards said:
If we take that then I seriously question what in the f*** we're doing.
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It's securing the future pick. We're not getting better than 25 from Dees this year.

Either way we will be shafted and I don't agree with it but 2 seconds is likely.
 
Tas said:
I never claimed to be. Footy is a pretty simple game, always has been and still is today.



Fast rebounding long kicking defence and midfield? When? 2012?

Brown took more contested marks on average than Cameron, more than Kennedy.
Lets look at 2019 between Brown and Hawkins... 2.8 marks I50 vs 2.9, both had 1.6 contested marks on average.
How about Jack Riewoldt? 2.8 vs 2.5 M50, 1.6 vs 1.4 CMs
Tom Lynch 3.1 M50s and 2.2 CMs has probably the greatest differential but if you would switch Brown and Lynch I think both their stats would change significantly.

These are the two fastest rebounding teams. Port had Dixon at FF, he took 1.6 marks inside F50 and 1.6 contested marks.



Brown scored a fair few goals from ground balls so to suggest he doesn't do anything once the ball hits the ground would suggest you do not watch a lot of our games.

I don't think defensive pressure was his fortee but I think you are blaming Brown for the side in general's lack of defensive structure, it wasn't really our game plan... you can't tell me Hall, Wood, etc were the go to pressure squad.

2019 stats (except Daniher)
Brown 0.9 tackles I50, 0.7 Intercepts, 1.6 1%ers.
Riewoldt 1.1 tackles I50, 1.1 Intercepts, 2.1 1%ers.
Hawkins 1.0 tackles I50, 0.6 Intercepts, 1.5 1%ers.
Cameron 0.5 tackles I50, 1.4 Intercepts, 1.5 1%ers.
Lynch 0.8 tackles I50, 0.9 Intercepts, 2.1 1%ers.
Kennedy 1.1 tackles I50, 0.7 Intercepts, 1.1 1%ers.
Dixon 1.2 tackles I50, 0.8 Intercepts, 2.4 1%ers.
Daniher (2017 his only good year) 0.5 tackles I50, 1.0 Intercepts, 1.5% 1%ers.

Am I missing anyone of note? There is some variance that supports how different these players play but I don't see the kind of gulf that would suggest he does nothing when the ball hits the ground. I also have to highlight these stats do not reflect that these other players play for a far superior team than Brown has.



It doesn't say much for the brains trust who stacked the back line with Williams, Pittard, Macmillan and co and thought we would be retaining possession of the ball under pressure. Because that was what we were rocking as the sh*t hit the fan.

The slower you move the ball the more pressure is put on you and the better your skills need to be, you have to consistently be able to kick and handpass to advantage or else you turn over the ball, and that is what happened to us.

It is no surprise we moved on the guys who had poor skills, but I am not sure how that is Brown's fault. Our press was horseshit too, I am not forgiving our forwards, not by any stretch, but we sucked across the board.

If you are going to successfully retain the ball, you need defenders and mids who can kick and you need them to be able to hold up under pressure, if guys can kick and retain the ball... they are generally better at hitting forward targets as well and the easiest way to stop a defensive rebound is if your forwards mark the ball. Richmond will often blaze away long with the chaos ball and their tall forwards will contest, but it is their fleet of smaller players who press well and lock the ball in, when they have the ball much closer to goal their repeat entries are not blazes, that is where they use their ability to hit targets in the forward 50.

Brown's last game this year was round 10, do you think our forward pressure was better after round 10? It wasn't.



One normally is, Riewoldt normally roams a lot further as does Cameron which is probably why they are significantly higher in terms of intercepts and 1%ers.

We would still have been horseshit if we had Dixon and Lynch in our forward 50, Port were one of the better teams this year and lost to Richmond by a kick in the PF, but they went inside 50 58 times and kicked 6 goals, Dixon kicked one from his four marks. At the end of the day, you need to be able to score a lot easier. Port had 58 inside 50s vs 44 but had 10 scoring shots vs 16. Richmond had a fairly ordinary game but still win on the road in a PF because over a sustained period of time class beats grunt almost every time, it is why the Swans chronically underachieved with their negative football as did Ross Lyon whomever he coached.




lol what is this rubbish mate? There were only a few forwards who took more contested marks than Brown.

If the system is to crab the ball around the park along the boundaries then dump a high hang time inside 50 on the top of his head then that is a sh*t system that that isn't going to get you anywhere.

Richmond, Geelong, Brisbane, Port... these team rebound from defense into attack very quickly.

The difference between the good teams and the sh*t teams is ball use. Our average disposals per inside 50 isn't that far off the good teams but there is light and day difference in terms of delivery. That doesn't mean lace out paces in open space, it means just sticking the ball to the advantage of with a kick that isn't a high hang time on top of his head.

Our delivery wasn't just garbage to Brown, it was garbage to everyone. Larkey, who has a great pair of hands, only averaged 1.1 contested marks this year and only 1.0 marks inside 50, ******* Carey would have struggled.

He is never going to be a Dixon or Lynch but I think he would be heaps better in a good team, not because I think he will get more easy ball but he would get a whole lot more opportunity to compete.

I don't think Melbourne is a good team, but that is Brown's problem, not mine.

I think some posters here are doing some mental gymnastics to try and justify why we acted in the manner we did.
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See how you cited tackles inside 50?

Now go work out the differential between that and total tackles. See if you can work it out then work out the implications.

Here's a hint.

What causes repeat inside 50s?
 
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