A question for the religious ones.

[Nigmeister]

How can anyone say that Adam and Eve is a fairytale?

To me the fairytale is that crock about how life was formed by pure chance into intelligent thinking human beings

In recorded history, not once, without intelligent influence, has new and useful information been created within anything. The only mutations that happen are a degeneration of information.

And where the hell are those many missing links required to support evolution?

Adam and Eve is the only believable and scientifically sound theory for the creation of the world that Ihave ever read.

The sad thing is that christians themselves don't understand their own theory, and just say "God did it" without backing it up scientifically.

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Generalissimo
But it answers nothing. All it does is shift the question of the origin of life onto a planet lightyears away where we can't get at it. The problem of how living beings can 'evolve' from inanimate molecules hasn't been tackled, except that now we are not asking how we came to be, but how the superintelligent aliens got there.

Agreed.

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
To me the fairytale is that crock about how life was formed by pure chance into intelligent thinking human beings

In recorded history, not once, without intelligent influence, has new and useful information been created within anything. The only mutations that happen are a degeneration of information.

And where the hell are those many missing links required to support evolution?

Adam and Eve is the only believable and scientifically sound theory for the creation of the world that Ihave ever read.

The sad thing is that christians themselves don't understand their own theory, and just say "God did it" without backing it up scientifically.

Sure, we can influence things. But fundamentally, things will only occur if the entropy of the universe does not decrease. In other words, we influence the probability of things occuring. Intelligence is not required for probable events to occur!

 

[Chiz]

Originally posted by Stevo

But the evidence at this stage supports humans evolving from apes.

No it doesn't. What evidence? I heard some guy say that humans were 99% like apes. ??????? You're kidding. Just look at us. You know how scientists show us those pictures of 'half-ape, half-human' people, of which we supposebly used to be. Well if that was true, how come there are no half-ape half-humans anymore? You can't say "because we have evolved from them and therefore there are no more around", because if we had evolved from apes, there would definately be no more of them around. But there are. I see humans and apes - 2 completely different creations. I don't see any 'half-human, half-apes' that were the transition between us. The reason I believe - God created humans. God created apes. Now, you don't have to believe that, but to believe that we came from apes is appalling.

For me, (and this isn't why I believe what I believe), I'd rather have come from a superintelligent designer than a dumb ape.

 

[1jasonoz]

For me, (and this isn't why I believe what I believe), I'd rather have come from a superintelligent designer than a dumb ape.

Dumb ape? When was the last time apes started a world war that killied millions? When was the last time apes manufactured a germ that can kill millions? When was the last time apes slaughters other living things for fun?

I know who the dumb ones are, and its not the apes.

 

[Nigmeister]

Originally posted by Stevo
Sure, we can influence things. But fundamentally, things will only occur if the entropy of the universe does not decrease. In other words, we influence the probability of things occuring. Intelligence is not required for probable events to occur!

An interesting point, stevo. I assume you know the second law of thermodynamics:
Every reaction is contributing to greater entropy (disorder, chaos).
This is a proven fact

Doesn't that contradict a 16 billion old 'evolutionarily improving' universe, if we are really degrading, not evolving?

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Chiz
No it doesn't. What evidence? I heard some guy say that humans were 99% like apes. ??????? You're kidding. Just look at us. You know how scientists show us those pictures of 'half-ape, half-human' people, of which we supposebly used to be. Well if that was true, how come there are no half-ape half-humans anymore? You can't say "because we have evolved from them and therefore there are no more around", because if we had evolved from apes, there would definately be no more of them around. But there are. I see humans and apes - 2 completely different creations. I don't see any 'half-human, half-apes' that were the transition between us. The reason I believe - God created humans. God created apes. Now, you don't have to believe that, but to believe that we came from apes is appalling.

For me, (and this isn't why I believe what I believe), I'd rather have come from a superintelligent designer than a dumb ape.

We are very similar to apes (not sure if it's 99%, but it'd be around about that). It's not about what we look like, it's about our genes.

I think you need to check the facts before you start jumping to conclusions.

 

[Chiz]

Originally posted by Stevo
We are very similar to apes (not sure if it's 99%, but it'd be around about that). It's not about what we look like, it's about our genes.

Does it ever occur to you that we are similar because God created us similar?

I don't see you arguing my other point.

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
An interesting point, stevo. I assume you know the second law of thermodynamics:
Every reaction is contributing to greater entropy (disorder, chaos).
This is a proven fact

Doesn't that contradict a 16 billion old 'evolutionarily improving' universe, if we are really degrading, not evolving?

The universe is not "evolutionarily improving", nor is it degrading.

Entropy does not mean that complex structures can not form. Remember, the entropy of the entire universe never decreases - we do not confine ourselves to the system in question. Otherwise, why would water become ice?

 

[Mobbs]

Originally posted by Stevo
We are very similar to apes (not sure if it's 99%, but it'd be around about that). It's not about what we look like, it's about our genes.

DNA difference I think is 0.4%

Mind you, I'm not sure what the DNA difference is between humans and, say, armadillos ... or the DNA diff between humans and gum trees ... or the DNA difference between saxon, celt, inuit, etc (just choosing terms there, mightn't be the correct categorisations).

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Chiz
Does it ever occur to you that we are similar because God created us similar?

I don't see you arguing my other point.

No. Ockham's razor.

As to your other point: I don't know. But I'm sure that you'd find that evolution provides a rather reasonable explanation. But your argument that if we evolved from half-ape-half-humans there should be some of them around is nonsensical. Why should they still exist?

 

[Nigmeister]

Originally posted by 1jasonoz
Dumb ape? When was the last time apes started a world war that killied millions? When was the last time apes manufactured a germ that can kill millions? When was the last time apes slaughters other living things for fun?

I know who the dumb ones are, and its not the apes.

This pulls us away from the original point, but have you ever heard of SIN?
Yet another biblical theory that man is basically evil without God. It's hard to deny this when you see the depravity of the world (war, abortion, starvation, ...)

And if the apes, which we alledgedly came from are morally better than us, doesn't that mean we are a de-evolition, which sort of disproves the whole theory

PS - Stevo, while chiz may have got his facts wrong, the fact that we share so much DNA, doesn't prove evolution, it just shows how incredibally complex DNA really is. Besides, Scientists don't understand all there is to know. Despite what you said earlier, they DO warp the facts to suit the theory.

 

[Chiz]

Originally posted by Stevo

I think you need to check the facts before you start jumping to conclusions.

There are no facts. Evolution is a theory. There have been thousands of theories as to how the earth came to be. Only one belief has lasted since the beginning of time, and that is the fact that God created the universe.

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
PS - Stevo, while chiz may have got his facts wrong, the fact that we share so much DNA, doesn't prove evolution, it just shows how incredibally complex DNA really is. Besides, Scientists don't understand all there is to know. Despite what you said earlier, they DO warp the facts to suit the theory.

Agreed on the first point.

Any respectable scientist would not manipulate evidence for their own agenda. They would get shot down by their peers. Scientists can't just publish anything they like. It's a very rigorous process.

 

[Chiz]

Originally posted by Stevo
Why should they still exist?

I guess they shouldn't exist. But if they don't, then neither should normal apes.

 

[1jasonoz]

Originally posted by Chiz
There are no facts. Evolution is a theory. There have been thousands of theories as to how the earth came to be. Only one belief has lasted since the beginning of time, and that is the fact that God created the universe.

Who created God?

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Chiz
There are no facts. Evolution is a theory. There have been thousands of theories as to how the earth came to be. Only one belief has lasted since the beginning of time, and that is the fact that God created the universe.

There are no facts? Bwahaha. The other one's got bells on.

Evolution occurs all the time, all around us. It is debatable what certain life forms evolved from, and other such matters. But it is ludicrous to suggest that life forms to not change in some way.

How did God create the universe?

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Chiz
I guess they shouldn't exist. But if they don't, then neither should normal apes.

Why not?

 

[Chiz]

Originally posted by 1jasonoz
Who created God?

The question that everybody would love to know.

 

[Nigmeister]

Originally posted by 1jasonoz
Who created God?

Come on jasonoz - if God was created then he is no longer God, is he

The fact that he exist out of out understanding of time and reality (because (if he exists) he created them) then his is not ruled by beginnings or ends, of by creators or destroyers

That's why he's God

 

[Chiz]

Originally posted by Stevo
Why not?

Because we would have evolved from them.

 

[Nigmeister]

Originally posted by Stevo
There are no facts? Bwahaha. The other one's got bells on.

Evolution occurs all the time, all around us. It is debatable what certain life forms evolved from, and other such matters. But it is ludicrous to suggest that life forms to not change in some way.

How did God create the universe?

True, evolution happens around us all the time - micro-evolution. Even the Bible talks about this - species changing WITHIN THEIR KIND. nobody debates that fact

However to assume that one species can become another is not a logical progression.

Chiz was wrong - there are facts. We just have to understand them.

How did God create the universe?
Ask him when you die.

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
The fact that he exist out of out understanding of time and reality (because (if he exists) he created them) then his is not ruled by beginnings or ends, of by creators or destroyers

That's why he's God

It isn't coherent for a being to exist outside of time and yet also participate in causal interactions.

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Chiz
Because we would have evolved from them.

Not necessarily. Evolution is not linear.

 

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Nigmeister
However to assume that one species can become another is not a logical progression.

How did God create the universe?
Ask him when you die.

Why not?

Why will I meet God when I die?