Abortion

[simpleton]

Hey guys, KC here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/romania/2207046/Romanian-rape-victim-to-have-abortion-in-Britain.html

Just interested to know your opinions on Abortion? In light of the case in Romania I thought it would be interesting to see the general consensus on BF.

I have seen and talked to many left wingers who don't have strong feelings on it, or are fence sitters.

I have always thought it dosen't really fit in the pro-choice column, when the baby dosen't have a choice to live or die, even if the mother does.

In rape cases it obviosuly has to be taken in consideration, esp with 11yos like the one above, that abortion be taken place. Not only is the 11yo pyhsically able to bear a baby, she has been forced into sex and the rapist should be executed. If older say 20+ though it still isn't the babies choice.

However as far as consensual sex I don't think the fetus should have to pay for the poor choice of unprotected sex.

Obviously each case is different, but what are your thoughts? I have listed many different options in the poll.

Well it certainly shouldn't be your choice what a woman should do. And why do you care anyway, abortion is been practiced in Australia today and I see no large social problems caused by it.

Though not affected by abortion, you want to control other peoples lives. You and your church community are free to not practice abortion but I don't think you should dictate to the rest of society whether to do so or not. We recently saw the abuses that happened when "church a**hole" Kevin Andrews was given too much power over other peoples lives.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

No child should face hardship in life.

This is just amazingly stupid. The vast majority of Australians go through hardship in one way or another.

 

[KevinCat07]

Well it certainly shouldn't be your choice what a woman should do. And why do you care anyway, abortion is been practiced in Australia today and I see no large social problems caused by it.

Though not affected by abortion, you want to control other peoples lives. You and your church community are free to not practice abortion but I don't think you should dictate to the rest of society whether to do so or not. We recently saw the abuses that happened when "church a**hole" Kevin Andrews was given too much power over other peoples lives.

Pedophiles do not in theory "harm" me either but do we let them look at kid pr0n? Should we not care? The Zimbabwe elections don't effect us but we have a right to question them.

Abortion is running away from a problem rather than facing it. You can't expect to play wih fire without conseqeunces.

 

[nicky]

Youth crime flourishes in places where abortion is illegal or hard to get.

If the state wants to decide that people cannot terminate a pregnancy the state should look after the children.

Allowing abortion is better for society than dictating what people can and cannot do with their own body. Around 50% of all pregnancies are terminated spontaneously anyway. If you were really concerned about the issue you'd campaign for research into stopping this happening rather than picking on a few unfortunate people.

I pretty much agree with this.

I can honestly say that i don't know how i feel about abortion BUT I am glad women have this option. Everyone should have the right to make decisions about their own body.

 

[simpleton]

Pedophiles do not in theory "harm" me either but do we let them look at kid pr0n? Should we not care? The Zimbabwe elections don't effect us but we have a right to question them.

Pedophiles harm society which you are a part of so you should care. I have seen no proof from you that abortion as practiced in Australia today causes any significant societal problems. Your position is based on religious axioms, not on empirical evidence.

Abortion is running away from a problem rather than facing it. You can't expect to play wih fire without conseqeunces.

So what you really disapprove of is people being able to have sex ("play with fire") and not suffer ("consquences"). Really you should others who are not harming you or society live their lives as they see fit.

 

[Fuzzy Wuzzy Bear]

I think KC's original point was not about what it will do to society but more the murder of the babies and their rights. I agree with earlier sentiments by linga and Karl, that it is convinient murder.

 

[Miss BD]

I think KC's original point was not about what it will do to society but more the murder of the babies and their rights. I agree with earlier sentiments by linga and Karl, that it is convinient murder.

So the emotional upheaval that results from an unplanned pregnancy is convenient, is it? And the incredibly difficult decision to have an abortion is also convenient?
Spare me. Some people seem to think that women have abortions at the drop of a hat. If you think that, then you should be just as worried about your own views on women as you are for the fetuses.

 

[Fuzzy Wuzzy Bear]

Oh for god's sake, don't start the whole treatment of women nonsense. Save that for a sam newman thread.

We have enough PCers around here as it is.

 

[Miss BD]

Oh for god's sake, don't start the whole treatment of women nonsense. Save that for a sam newman thread.

We have enough PCers around here as it is.

Well, don't insult women by assuming they would view abortion as a 'convenient' contraceptive method.

 

[Fuzzy Wuzzy Bear]

Well, don't insult women by assuming they would view abortion as a 'convenient' contraceptive method.

I'm sorry you took it as an insult, it wasn't meant to be one. What I meant was some women would take that option because the other would be unheard of ie better option of terminating then having the child.

 

[SolidTiger]

This is just amazingly stupid. The vast majority of Australians go through hardship in one way or another.

You think preventing people who are not capable looking after themselves let alone children raise children is stupid? Just look at the news over the last few weeks. Month old twins dies in Brisbane because the mother didn't feed them ( the dad is just as responsible.). A family had 14 children living in squallar and unsanitary conditions which was deemed unfit for even a dog, also a similar case was found in Canberra. And also the article in the Herald Sun today I pointed out in my previous post.

It is fine if an adult wants to screw up their own life and and face hardship for themselves, because that is their own choice. But a child would have no choice to be born into those conditions.

 

[Richo83]

Err, no, the rest of us don't live in a womb.

If you take the little parasite out of its host at any stage in the first few months, it can't survive. So how exactly are they "just like you and me"?

Nail. Hammer. Head. A seven week old fetus isn't a life, it can only exist in the womb and is far removed from us. It is not a life, and women should have a say on the future of that fetus.

 

[Miss BD]

I'm sorry you took it as an insult, it wasn't meant to be one. What I meant was some women would take that option because the other would be unheard of ie better option of terminating then having the child.

Convenient in the sense that it might be a better option than actually having a child? I agree. But I don't think it's convenient in the sense that it would be undertaken lightly.

 

[rizzo]

Interesting. Seems me and you have the same stance, but disagree vehemently on the basis for that stance.

That is usually a sign that a stance is the most logical - when people arrive at that stance from completely different points of view.

Agree that stance is the same one. I'm not sure where in a birth period where it becomes more human then cell. If thats 18 weeks, i would agree with you.

I think we are just coming from different ways into reasons why abortions are taken etc.

We also have different views on hardship and stuff like that, but that is what this forum is for. People don't always agree.

Its always good to have a good debate, so thanks for bringing your thoughts to the table as well..



BTW, KevinCat, you still haven't answered my questions.

Are you happy to fund the system that will come under strain?

Are you a vegeterian?

How can you call my thoughts distasteful, when you solution is to make sure the chicks keep their legs closed. Your thoughts seem very narrow minded,

 

[SolidTiger]

Convenient in the sense that it might be a better option than actually having a child? I agree. But I don't think it's convenient in the sense that it would be undertaken lightly.

I don't know why the decision is difficult. They are only terminating cells in their body if they decide early enough. It is not like they are terminating a life.

 

[Miss BD]

I don't know why the decision is difficult. They are only terminating cells in their body if they decide early enough. It is not like they are terminating a life.

I'm extremely pro-choice but even I don't agree with this perspective. It's not the fact that it's a bunch of cells, it's the fact that you are choosing the direction that your life will take from this point on. Would it be better to have a child at this point in time, even though circumstances may not be ideal? Or would it be impossible to give a child the love, support and nurturing it would require? Whether you choose to have the child or choose to abort it, the decision is going to have repercussions. So yes, it is an extremely difficult decision.

 

[SolidTiger]

I'm extremely pro-choice but even I don't agree with this perspective. It's not the fact that it's a bunch of cells, it's the fact that you are choosing the direction that your life will take from this point on. Would it be better to have a child at this point in time, even though circumstances may not be ideal? Or would it be impossible to give a child the love, support and nurturing it would require? Whether you choose to have the child or choose to abort it, the decision is going to have repercussions. So yes, it is an extremely difficult decision.

If a woman has doubts about being able to provide for the child than they should definately abort it. They can always have another one when they are capable of raising a child.

 

[KevinCat07]

BTW, KevinCat, you still haven't answered my questions.

Are you happy to fund the system that will come under strain?

Are you a vegeterian?

How can you call my thoughts distasteful, when you solution is to make sure the chicks keep their legs closed. Your thoughts seem very narrow minded,

1. If it genuinley helps...then yes. I haven't brought my faith into it yet but it would be wrong otherwise not to. The question is will it be abused. If one is an atheist I would imagine it would be harder to think of other people, so I can understand why some here are opposed. If it ends up saving some future lives, then yeah.

2. No, of course not. Mate your comparing cows to human life which is wrong. You are basically saying i'm applying humanity to a bunch of "cells" but you are applying human characteristics to cows. Are you a vegan?

3. How is advocating they keep their legs closed wrong? It's fool proof. No STI's, no having to even deal with an abortion in the first place. Now you will probably say girls will be girls etc but that would be the same level as the "boys will be boys" logic for the rapists that the Islamic Sheik was describing last year.

 

[Sportman1987]

Why should the circumstances of the pregnancy have ANY bearing on abortion if the embryo is indeed life?

I have no problem with abortion since I don't view the embryo as any more a life than my sperm, which I waste by the million.

However, if you do indeed view it as life, I can't see how you can effectively legitimise murder by saying under *some* circumstances a life, by your own definition can be terminated. Atleast be consistent.

 

[Sportman1987]

Nail. Hammer. Head. A seven week old fetus isn't a life, it can only exist in the womb and is far removed from us. It is not a life, and women should have a say on the future of that fetus.

Not really. Leave a baby to fend for itself and it will die pretty fast.

 

[mr_cellotape]

Not really. Leave a baby to fend for itself and it will die pretty fast.

Yes, clearly. But it has the potential for life. Even with the help of it's own mother, much less doctors and modern medicine, a 5 months old or less fetus cannot live independent of its host.

Now you will probably say girls will be girls etc but that would be the same level as the "boys will be boys" logic for the rapists that the Islamic Sheik was describing last year.

That's correct, people; excusing promiscuity is as bad as excusing rape. And anti-abortionists claim they don't hate women.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Im not a left winger. Im as economically Liberal as they come but conservatism and it's fight against communism has rendered my social beleifs leftist. How sad.

Babies are spunges and they at least have potential for humanity. A point between fetus and a child with potential for life has been recognised as a moral center and i see nothing wrong with that. Most Australians support abortion and it's not changing so go away back to the dark ages.

 

[Sportman1987]

Yes, clearly. But it has the potential for life. Even with the help of it's own mother, much less doctors and modern medicine, a 5 months old or less fetus cannot live independent of its host.

Equating a potential life as life? Which side of the debate are you on!? Scooby Doo is less confused than you.

 

[simpleton]

3. How is advocating they keep their legs closed wrong? It's fool proof. No STI's, no having to even deal with an abortion in the first place. Now you will probably say girls will be girls etc but that would be the same level as the "boys will be boys" logic for the rapists that the Islamic Sheik was describing last year.

It's wrong because it does not affect you and the cost to society in which you live is relatively minor. In Australia today, casual sex will lead to STI's and unwanted pregnancy very rarely and when it does there are solutions. You have no basis for advocating this except for outdated religious dogma.

Do you also advocate people shouldn't drive cars - no accidents, no crash repairs, no physical injuries? If I was you I would spend more time examining the leaders in your community (eg priests) that empirically have been shown to be sexually deviant (eg child molesters) at a much high propotion than the general population.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

You think preventing people who are not capable looking after themselves let alone children raise children is stupid? Just look at the news over the last few weeks. Month old twins dies in Brisbane because the mother didn't feed them ( the dad is just as responsible.). A family had 14 children living in squallar and unsanitary conditions which was deemed unfit for even a dog, also a similar case was found in Canberra. And also the article in the Herald Sun today I pointed out in my previous post.

It is fine if an adult wants to screw up their own life and and face hardship for themselves, because that is their own choice. But a child would have no choice to be born into those conditions.

We already have power to take children like that away from those situations though. The failing in those instances isn't with preventing those people from having kids, its from not recognising the situation and responding to the complaints in time in the first place.