Abortion

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Norm Smith Medallist
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I recall stating that a woman's reproductive rights and the right of the fetus/child need to be balanced against one another. In that regard, I believe that a woman's reproductive right not to bear a child would trump the right of the fetus/child in the case of rape, but not necessarily in other situations. I'm respectfully not sure that there is a real conflict.
If in certain situations the rights of the fetus>than the mother then should alcohol be banned for pregnant women? Drugs? Vigorous exercise? Pizza and takeaway?

The mother's rights trump the fetus as the fetus is not viable without the mother. Only way to circumvent this is to give the fetus equal status with human life.
 

Taylor

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A rape kit isn't going to prove a rape occurred and neither is a police report.

What about when there are those things but not enough evidence?

It's a pointless distinction to make.
Patients presenting for rape are treated for pregnancy. There is no need to prove a rape for an abortion that isn't required, which is my point, there is no pregnancy. It was prevented.
 

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Niximus

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Birth control after rape holds off ovulation as far as I know. It's the morning after pill.

Again, hundreds of thousands of lifestyle abortions sneaking in on the coat tails of a tiny fraction of rape abortions.

Build a system to suit 99% and we will be fine
No birth control is 100% effective.

My wife and I do not want children. We do not want children so much that I got a vasectomy at 32. It is extremely unlikely, but not impossible for that to spontaneously reverse. If it did and we somehow became pregnant we would not be having a baby.
 

Bomberboyokay

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Birth control after rape holds off ovulation as far as I know. It's the morning after pill.

Again, hundreds of thousands of lifestyle abortions sneaking in on the coat tails of a tiny fraction of rape abortions.

Build a system to suit 99% and we will be fine
I'm beginning to think you're not much of a nurse.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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I think we need to be honest that for many 'pro-life' people it has nothing to do with the rights of a fetus - if it did then the manner of conception would be irrelevant. Why would a rape baby have less rights than a non-rape baby, it makes no sense?

If you understand that it's actually about punishing promiscuity then it all makes sense. A raped woman is innocent and of course she shouldn't be forced to birth the rapist's baby. If it's not rape though then she should have just kept her legs shut if she didn't want a baby...
Agree. It is about people forcing their own view of the world onto others.

In this and only this can I come some way to understanding the Catholic Church View (no abortions for rape as murder >rape) otherwise why not allow abortions up to a certain point for any reason? If they are legal, medically safe then who cares if it is for an accident and lifestyle reason? (No contraception is 100% reliable?) You can't force people into parenthood and women to carrying a pregnancy and child they don't want.
 

Pie eyed

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Queensland narrowly manage to legalise abortion in the year 2018.

This says everything any normal person ever needs to know about any facet of Queensland.

For the record I was born and raised in Queensland.
 

ShanDog

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Agree. It is about people forcing their own view of the world onto others.

In this and only this can I come some way to understanding the Catholic Church View (no abortions for rape as murder >rape) otherwise why not allow abortions up to a certain point for any reason? If they are legal, medically safe then who cares if it is for an accident and lifestyle reason? (No contraception is 100% reliable?) You can't force people into parenthood and women to carrying a pregnancy and child they don't want.
I don't follow - the Catholic Church is ok with aborting babies as a result of rape? Am I understanding that correctly? If so, it's a hypocritical position.
 

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Taylor

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Yes.


What?

That includes the right to end a pregnancy.
I look at it the other way. You have the right to have as much as sex as you want but the responsibility that comes with that is you might create a life.

Even on the balance, the right to life of the child is higher than the right of the mother to not be inconvenienced.

As I said before, we just need to be honest in this discussion. This isn't a rape issue, it's a small part of it. This is a lifestyle issue. We need better means for women to have as much sex as they want without fear of falling pregnant.
 

its free real estate

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The Catholic Church have been consistent on abortion and infanticide since the beginning. Back in Roman times, female infanticide was rife, which led to male:female sex ratios in Rome of 1.4 men to every woman. Ancient Greece was also a heavy practitioner of infanticide.

We have removed the Christian taboo on abortion but kept its taboo on infanticide.
 

cartwright

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I look at it the other way. You have the right to have as much as sex as you want but the responsibility that comes with that is you might create a life.

Even on the balance, the right to life of the child is higher than the right of the mother to not be inconvenienced.
You're either for forced pregnancies or against it.

Reality is, a couple of 17 year old kids shouldn't be forced to raise a child when they have zero life experience themselves. A woman, who is dealing with violence in her home, shouldn't have to have a child because you think they think its an inconvenience.

A couple, who have to decide whether to keep a child with a defect or abnormality, shouldn't be forced to make that decision and be a branded a criminal in the process.

the thing is, an abortion is a difficult and complex decision, the reasons it might be made are varied. And its a personal one.

As I said before, we just need to be honest in this discussion. This isn't a rape issue, it's a small part of it. This is a lifestyle issue. We need better means for women to have as much sex as they want without fear of falling pregnant.
I do not believe I have ever raised rape as an argument against or for abortion. I believe the state does not have more control over a woman's body than herself. I'm pretty consistent in my stance.

What would be preferred is the old "rare, safe & ....legal" ... and know if they do fall pregnant they have choice over what happens next. And that they won't be judged by others who think that their decision is similar to deciding on whether to keep a pet.
 

Taylor

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You're either for forced pregnancies or against it.

Reality is, a couple of 17 year old kids shouldn't be forced to raise a child when they have zero life experience themselves. A woman, who is dealing with violence in her home, shouldn't have to have a child because you think they think its an inconvenience.

A couple, who have to decide whether to keep a child with a defect or abnormality, shouldn't be forced to make that decision and be a branded a criminal in the process.

the thing is, an abortion is a difficult and complex decision, the reasons it might be made are varied. And its a personal one.



I do not believe I have ever raised rape as an argument against or for abortion. I believe the state does not have more control over a woman's body than herself. I'm pretty consistent in my stance.

What would be preferred is the old "rare, safe & ....legal" ... and know if they do fall pregnant they have choice over what happens next. And that they won't be judged by others who think that their decision is similar to deciding on whether to keep a pet.
It's not me who thinks it's an inconvenience, it's the reported reason for the study I was citing.

Also, the overwhelming majority of abortions are women aged 20-40 so again we are diverting the conversation to the emotional extreme, previously in the thread it was rape and now it's teenagers having abortions to justify the access to a medical procedure that ends an inconvenient human life for the benefit of the one who chose to engage in the act that created them.

I'm not in favour of forced pregnancy, I'm in favour of no pregnancy. Not abstinence. No pregnancy.

I'm a huge fan of unsafe sex because it's so much better but someone else's life shouldn't be the cost that gets paid for me to live my life free of the responsibilities for the consequences of my actions.

That's only my position. I think the solution is a better contraception, as long as it isn't state mandated.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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I don't follow - the Catholic Church is ok with aborting babies as a result of rape? Am I understanding that correctly? If so, it's a hypocritical position.
No.

Catholic Church = No abortion under any circumstances. Including rape as murder is a greater offence.

Majority on this board = Abortion should be allowed under certain circumstances not as a lifestyle choice.

Me = Up to a certain point 12-16 weeks a fetus is not viable without the mother and yet to form as a sentinent being. Not murder. Therefore abortions for everyone who wants them under any circumstance. Funded by Medicare. Otherwise the alternative is to force parenthood on those who don't want it, force women into carrying a pregnancy and giving birth against their will and having unwanted children born.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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I'm a huge fan of unsafe sex because it's so much better
We need better means for women to have as much sex as they want without fear of falling pregnant.
Something we agree on. But
a) Women already can have as much sex as they want
b) What other contraception do you want? Women have the choice of at least half a dozen options. Men have but 1. And if a couple agrees to forgo condoms for quote 1 than a man really is placing the course of his life solely in the hands of his partner. And he doesn't get the choice of abortion.

Abortion really exists as a last line of denfence. Women are fertile for 30 years + and no contraception is ever going to be 100%.

Bring on a male pill/equivalent I say. Then we might see the score card even out a bit and less unplanned pregnancies.
 

tommyTitch

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Isn't it strange how all pro abortion people are already born? Why not also introduce euthanasia for children. When it all gets too hard for the parents, we can just erase them?
 

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