Abortion

[Monkster]

OH BOO HOO, cry me a river, if he talks her into having the kid & then walks away he deserves it,

I didn't say it was a bad thing, just pointing out that guys who mess around and have an 'accident' have to suffer consequences as well.

mind you, there are a lot of fathers paying sweet F all. You see, they say they are unemployed & just do cash jobs. Those poor men, they only have to put out some money,

Some money? Try the majority, besides there are plenty of single mothers out there that do squat to look after their child as well, I'm sure it all balences out (statistically).

while the woman has to provide the rest of the money & the day to day care of the child, sacrificing many things, to be able to look after the child until it can provide for itself.

A child can get a job at 14 and a half so why does child support still need to be paid after that age?

 

[Monkster]

I saw some of the McCain Obama debate today, I don't like how the religious right describes pro-choice as pro-abortion, as if we are some blood thirsty maniacs, they don't necessarily interwind, are they really that stupid or are they doing it on purpose?

I agree, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice but anti-abortion.

 

[stimpy]

A child can get a job at 14 and a half so why does child support still need to be paid after that age?

are you for real?

 

[mantis]

are you for real?

Unfortunately he is, but you have to forgive him, because he is young & never had to raise a child through High School & Uni, yes I guess there are bogans out there, who make their kids leave school as soon as possible to support themselves, maybe that happened to him.

 

[mantis]

I didn't say it was a bad thing, just pointing out that guys who mess around and have an 'accident' have to suffer consequences as well.

Not as severe as the woman, they still have their own life, the woman doesn't because she has the child to consider.

Some money? Try the majority, besides there are plenty of single mothers out there that do squat to look after their child as well, I'm sure it all balences out (statistically).

There are more mothers out there doing it hard, working & raisinng their children by themselves, with no support by the father.

A child can get a job at 14 and a half so why does child support still need to be paid after that age?

If you weren't a Mod, I'd respond to that sentence the way it deserves, which is what you are hanging out for, hence you trolling my every post on this board.

 

[Monkster]

are you for real?

Unfortunately he is, but you have to forgive him, because he is young & never had to raise a child through High School & Uni, yes I guess there are bogans out there, who make their kids leave school as soon as possible to support themselves, maybe that happened to him.

You two never heard of working after school and weekends?

 

[Monkster]

Not as severe as the woman, they still have their own life, the woman doesn't because she has the child to consider.

Since you've never been a father supporting a child that doesn't live with them I'd suggest you've got NFI what you're on about.

There are more mothers out there doing it hard, working & raisinng their children by themselves, with no support by the father.

Unless you have some stats on that than you're just guessing.

If you weren't a Mod, I'd respond to that sentence the way it deserves, which is what you are hanging out for, hence you trolling my every post on this board.

Yeah couldn't have anything to do with the fact that I disagree with pretty much everything you say now could it?

 

[azreal]

I agree, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice but anti-abortion.

Thats a good way of saying it,

me too.

 

[fairdinkum]

Playing devil's advocate here - So the man should get no say into something that he could be paying child support to for the next 16 years? It seems a bit contradictory that the women is happy to let the man pay all kinds of fees for the child but won't let him have a say with the abortion.

The man doesn't like it, then there's one place where he shouldn't stick his old fella. Very, very simple.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

I never said that, I have said numerous times when abortion threads are started, that if a woman decides to keep the baby against the father's wishes, then she should not have the right to expect him to pay, because it was her choice, same is if she wants to get rid of it, it is her choice.

I agree with that sentiment completely. It is definitely the woman's choice (the man can be an advisor to her, or a council, but its her decision), and if she chooses to go through with it, against the man's wishes, but he should still pay something.

 

[stimpy]

You two never heard of working after school and weekends?

You'd make a 14 and 1/2 year old support himself, WTF???? What about liesure time, homework etc. **** those years are golden purely because they're the last years before you become a responsible adult.

I appreciate that some kids do not have a choice but to rely on them at the age of 14 to support themselves so the father doesn't have to is a bloody joke...

sheeesh, i'm glad i never had a dad like you.

 

[fairdinkum]

I agree with that sentiment completely. It is definitely the woman's choice (the man can be an advisor to her, or a council, but its her decision), and if she chooses to go through with it, against the man's wishes, but he should still pay something.

Agreed (for once)

If men don't like the idea that, if their sexual partner falls pregnant, she gets to decide whether or not the baby is born and, if she goes through with it, he pays child support (regardless of whether he wants the child or not), then men do not have to have sex with women. Very simple.

 

[Monkster]

Agreed (for once)

If men don't like the idea that, if their sexual partner falls pregnant, she gets to decide whether or not the baby is born and, if she goes through with it, he pays child support (regardless of whether he wants the child or not), then men do not have to have sex with women. Very simple.

Ditto that if a woman doesn't want to fall pregnant she doesn't have to have sex with a man either.

 

[KevinCat07]

Thats a good way of saying it,

me too.

Rubbish. If you are pro-choice then you don't care if the women chooses murder. Evil prevails when good men do nothing - but then again a lot of people posing as good aren't exactly that!

And while you are at it, why don’t you smear yourself with a little sheep’s blood!

 

[fairdinkum]

Ditto that if a woman doesn't want to fall pregnant she doesn't have to have sex with a man either.

You seem to have missed my point.

I didn't say that 'if a man doesn't want a woman to fall pregnant, he doesn't have to have sex with her'.

I said (paraphrasing) 'if a man doesn't like it that the woman calls the shots, he doesn't have to have sex with her'.

 

[Monkster]

You seem to have missed my point.

I didn't say that 'if a man doesn't want a woman to fall pregnant, he doesn't have to have sex with her'.

I said (paraphrasing) 'if a man doesn't like it that the woman calls the shots, he doesn't have to have sex with her'.

Than how about "if a woman doesn't like it that abortion is illegal than she doesn't have to have sex".

 

[mantis]

Than how about "if a woman doesn't like it that abortion is illegal than she doesn't have to have sex".

HA HA, can you imagine if all the single women said, no I can't have sex, in case the protection fails & I might get pregnant & don't want to have a kid yet.

You wouldn't see many guys out & about, they will all be at home sitting in front of their computers getting RSI.

By thwe way Monk, in case you haven't heard, abortion is legal.

 

[Monkster]

HA HA, can you imagine if all the single women said, no I can't have sex, in case the protection fails & I might get pregnant & don't want to have a kid yet.

You wouldn't see many guys out & about, they will all be at home sitting in front of their computers getting RSI.

So it's ok for someone to say that if the man doesn't like that he doesn't get a say he shouldn't have sex but not the other way around?

By thwe way Monk, in case you haven't heard, abortion is legal.

Technically it's decriminalised, however we were discussing hypothetical situations.

 

[mantis]

So it's ok for someone to say that if the man doesn't like that he doesn't get a say he shouldn't have sex but not the other way around?Technically it's decriminalised, however we were discussing hypothetical situations.

Yes, because the man isn't the one who has to go through the pregnancy & raise the child, he can just walk away.

 

[Monkster]

Yes, because the man isn't the one who has to go through the pregnancy & raise the child, he can just walk away.

I believe we went through the whole Child Support thing, btw the original statement was that the man has to pay child support regardless of if he wanted the kid or not so please ensure your arguements are in line with that statement.

Just to clarify, my comment was a rebuttal to "if a man doesn't want to pay child support he shouldn't have sex".

 

[mantis]

I believe we went through the whole Child Support thing, btw the original statement was that the man has to pay child support regardless of if he wanted the kid or not so please ensure your arguements are in line with that statement.

Just to clarify, my comment was a rebuttal to "if a man doesn't want to pay child support he shouldn't have sex".

Yes, but the poster who made that post did so as a rebuttal to someone saying that if women don't want to get pregnant, then they shouldn't have sex. Round & round & round we go.

Let's face it, teenagers & young adults will always have sex, sometimes with protection & other times not, sometimes they use protection & it fails. The only way to stop unwanted pregnancies & abortions, is for people to not have sex, unless they want to have a kid.

I hope the the health system will be able to cope with all the RSI patients they will get.

 

[fairdinkum]

Than how about "if a woman doesn't like it that abortion is illegal than she doesn't have to have sex".

In the hypothetical scenario in which abortion is both illegal and unobtainable, this is a valid point. Of course, in this scenario, one can imagine that it wouldn't take too long for the laws to change, because many women would take you up on your advice and support for the predominantly male anti-abortion lobby would dry up fairly quick. Of those who continued to have sex, the mortality rate arising from backyard abortions would also quicken the abolition of the relevant laws.

However, we are talking about a society in which abortion is legal and/or obtainable, and the laws therein pertaining to the rights of the mother to 'choose' and to child support where necessary. In such a society, if the man doesn't like it that the woman gets the final say, he knows where to keep his old fella.

 

[fairdinkum]

Yes, but the poster who made that post did so as a rebuttal to someone saying that if women don't want to get pregnant, then they shouldn't have sex. Round & round & round we go.

Actually, my argument stands on its own. It need not be a 'rebuttal' as you put it.

Basically, most of us agree that abortion is an undesirable outcome. But many of us who think that abortion is sometimes horrendous are willing to accept that it is not our place to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her own body. That is, we justify a woman's right to choose based on her own right to autonomy.

If we accept this argument, then that is why we must apply similar logic to the decision of keeping the baby. It is not the father's right to his own body that leads us to accept abortion as a necessary (albeit undesirable) option, so he should have no (legal) say in what happens to the pregnancy.

To put this in perspective, suppose when conception took place a third physical entity was immediately expelled from the mother. Let us call this an 'egg'. That is, it is no longer any more attached to (or dependent on) the mother than it is the father. In such a case, there would be no reason to give the mother the final say on whether the egg is incubated or destroyed. Indeed, the whole argument for legal 'abortion' (read - destroying the egg) would suddenly evaporate.

The argument for giving the mother the final say is not based on her being a 'mother' full stop, but rather it is based on her right to her body - the same right that leads us to allow abortion (even when we think it undesirable) in the first place.

 

[Jabso]

You know some people don't like being categorised as left/right winged, personally I'd call myself leftist but some people don't believe they fit in to any of those very broad categories.

 

[Jabso]

Not really. Things like condom breakage happen all the time. What if someone got preggers after that? They took the right measures and shouldn't have to pay for it.

I'm all for abortion and it should be legalised. Can't stand the goodie goodies that say that it has feelings/ cant choose what they want. It is just a bloody cell in some unlucky chick.

What would you rather people who are against abortion?

A baby who comes into the world, the mother has to live off the system because she can't afford to look after the child. THe mother goes to work to try support for the child, so the child has no figure to teach and guide them and turns into a ____hole of a child. Or the mother doesn't give a shit from the start and you still get a prick of a child.

Or we can get the bastard sucked out and we all move on..

Some anti-abortionists seem to point to scientific facts that fetuses are alive, yet other scientifically backed arguments they will dismiss easily. If you care about the life of a cell, why aren't they vegans? That chicken you ate didn't have a choice ever. (No I'm not veg).