Oppo Camp Non-Eagles Discussion

[Cuzz09]

16 seems perfect

then play everyone twice home and away

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[flamingEMBERS]

St Kilda is just as much of blight to the comp too.

They at least kind of have fans when they're good, have had shocking management though

 

[sharps24]

Way off topic but since Simpson isn't going anywhere anytime soon:

1995 we go to 16 team comp. Population 18 million on dot.
2011/12 we go to 18 team comp, population is 22.5 million. 12.5% increase of comp size, on back of 25% population increase.
Still an 18 team comp in 2024 and population is just shy of 27 million, now a 50% population increase on 1995.

Not sure what the story is here, are there less 18 year olds than in 1995? Less 18 year olds playing sport? Less 18 year olds playing football?

Doesn't seem ideal. Bloody kids these days eh, we'll hit 50 million one day and they'll be saying we need to go back to a 12 team comp. And they'll probably be right.

Alternatively, maybe try invest some money back into the game. Have larger squads so if you get a few injuries you can still do match sim. Have more development coaches and professional staff around the clubs. Have better feeder comps. Don't destroy all the top 10 talent by sending crazy numbers of them to s**t clubs where they have no chance of ever developing properly. Pay the umpires a living wage so they don't have to take bribes from the AFL or Sportsbet to rig games or whatever they are doing now. etc etc. Seems like just the AFL are s**t at running a professional comp more than it is access to young and willing bodies. We need to be a 20-24 club comp to ever reach some degree of fairness in fixturing. If we had a 24 club comp today it'd be a 33% increase on clubs during a period of 50% pop increase. Dunno, seems doable at first glance but maybe the AFL being run better doesn't cut deeply enough into the embarrassing health of western youth.

 

[sharps24]

Meh, briefly looking into it I can believe that there are probably about the same amount of kids to choose from today as there were 30 years ago. % of population for 15-19 year olds fallen about 20% over that time and probably still trending down. Add in demographic changes to % of pop foreign born [ie.not AFL households], helicopter parenting steering kids to soccer/other sports to avoid concussions, child obesity rates etc etc. Maybe enough factors to support going back to the 16 club comp, dreaming towards a 12 club comp. 2 for every mainland state and 1 each for tas and NT works best for me.

Imagine how good it would be to add Tas and NT, keeping the 2 teams for each of WA, SA, NSW, QLD and then making the VLF do some kind of a relegation thing where only the best 2 teams they have are allowed to play in the AFL and if they don't make top 4 then get relegated. VFL goes back to being Melbourne centric but is a televised professional comp and so buys out the MCG contract. AFL GF rotates. 24 game season, play everyone twice. 50 plus on main list and fully fledged national AFL reserves comp. One governing organisation packaging up AFL, AFL Reserves, VFL, WAFL, SANFL broadcast rights and setting salary caps and player payments equitably for all of those.

 

[matthew_s]

Meh, briefly looking into it I can believe that there are probably about the same amount of kids to choose from today as there were 30 years ago. % of population for 15-19 year olds fallen about 20% over that time and probably still trending down. Add in demographic changes to % of pop foreign born [ie.not AFL households], helicopter parenting steering kids to soccer/other sports to avoid concussions, child obesity rates etc etc. Maybe enough factors to support going back to the 16 club comp, dreaming towards a 12 club comp. 2 for every mainland state and 1 each for tas and NT works best for me.

kids in 95 just didnt have the choices that kids today have now. There is so much more competing for kids attention.

To illustrate the point, in 1995 there would have been 1 Aussie in the NBA (Luc Longley), now we've had recent seasons with ~10

The non-sporting pass times have also exploded exponentially as well.

 

[matthew_s]

They at least kind of have fans when they're good, have had shocking management though

They've also employed Ross Lyon. TWICE.

Insta-fold.

 

[FKASC]

Way off topic but since Simpson isn't going anywhere anytime soon:

1995 we go to 16 team comp. Population 18 million on dot.
2011/12 we go to 18 team comp, population is 22.5 million. 12.5% increase of comp size, on back of 25% population increase.
Still an 18 team comp in 2024 and population is just shy of 27 million, now a 50% population increase on 1995.

Not sure what the story is here, are there less 18 year olds than in 1995? Less 18 year olds playing sport? Less 18 year olds playing football?

Doesn't seem ideal. Bloody kids these days eh, we'll hit 50 million one day and they'll be saying we need to go back to a 12 team comp. And they'll probably be right.

Alternatively, maybe try invest some money back into the game. Have larger squads so if you get a few injuries you can still do match sim. Have more development coaches and professional staff around the clubs. Have better feeder comps. Don't destroy all the top 10 talent by sending crazy numbers of them to s**t clubs where they have no chance of ever developing properly. Pay the umpires a living wage so they don't have to take bribes from the AFL or Sportsbet to rig games or whatever they are doing now. etc etc. Seems like just the AFL are s**t at running a professional comp more than it is access to young and willing bodies. We need to be a 20-24 club comp to ever reach some degree of fairness in fixturing. If we had a 24 club comp today it'd be a 33% increase on clubs during a period of 50% pop increase. Dunno, seems doable at first glance but maybe the AFL being run better doesn't cut deeply enough into the embarrassing health of western youth.

Were squads smaller back then? They didn’t have as many on the bench I know that

 

[ziad]

16 seems perfect

then play everyone twice home and away

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

The numbers say it all.

 

[ziad]

kids in 95 just didnt have the choices that kids today have now. There is so much more competing for kids attention.

To illustrate the point, in 1995 there would have been 1 Aussie in the NBA (Luc Longley), now we've had recent seasons with ~10

The non-sporting pass times have also exploded exponentially as well.

Rugby Union (Not Rugby League) is dying. They rely on big private schools in NSW/QLD. Some of these schools had 10 teams a few years ago, now they have 10 soccer teams and 2-3 Rugby union teams. As a side comment they refuse to target the poorer areas of Sydney with large islander populations (that happen to love Rugby Union).

 

[Cuzz09]

The numbers say it all.

what numbers?

Also if they want a proper top standard league they need a reserves comp and probably an u19s comp and all train/travel/develop together.



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[sharps24]

Were squads smaller back then? They didn’t have as many on the bench I know that

In 95 it seems everyone had 42 senior players except Sydney who had 41, and Fremantle who had 50. No Rookies or Cat B's. When Port Joined teams went to 41-42 Senior players and up to 6 Rookies, then early 2000's they were down to 37-40 seniors and up to 6 Rookies. Then cat b's and all that started in the Gold Coast/GWS era. So its kinda the same, 42 back in the day then about 45 now but less seniors. Special cases with new teams seam to have been able to have up to 50 or so.

 

[southcoast]

pretty close

Think of the travel.


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[ziad]

what numbers?

Also if they want a proper top standard league they need a reserves comp and probably an u19s comp and all train/travel/develop together.



On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

The numbers where there are close to 1000 AFL players and only a few are top quality - the Australian cricket team is tiny and only a few are 'elite'

 

[Ghossein]

Not that anyone asked but this is what I would do if I was dictator of the AFL:

Tas and NT to each have a team, 2 in WA, 2 in SA, 2 in NSW, and 2 in QLD. 20 Team competition.

Reform the draft to remove priority picks, bidding, father-son, academy, etc. Draft order should reflect the table at the end of the season.

Allow clubs to recruit mature players from the state leagues without having to go through the draft. Rule could be something like if a player has nominated for 3 drafts and has not been selected, clubs can simply offer them a contract.

Reduce the length of quarters from 20 minutes to 15, and extend the length of the H&A season.

Scrap the pre-season tournament and simply start round 1 then.

Extend the size of lists to about 45-50 but make it so that clubs don't have to fill every spot if they don't want/need to. Clubs can make the choice to take on more projects or keep shorter list sizes if they eye talent in upcoming drafts.

Hire an ex-judge/arbitrator to run the tribunal so that it actually follows basic legal precedents

Thank you for coming to my ted talk

 

[InTheWings]

Way off topic but since Simpson isn't going anywhere anytime soon:

1995 we go to 16 team comp. Population 18 million on dot.
2011/12 we go to 18 team comp, population is 22.5 million. 12.5% increase of comp size, on back of 25% population increase.
Still an 18 team comp in 2024 and population is just shy of 27 million, now a 50% population increase on 1995.

Not sure what the story is here, are there less 18 year olds than in 1995? Less 18 year olds playing sport? Less 18 year olds playing football?

Doesn't seem ideal. Bloody kids these days eh, we'll hit 50 million one day and they'll be saying we need to go back to a 12 team comp. And they'll probably be right.

Alternatively, maybe try invest some money back into the game. Have larger squads so if you get a few injuries you can still do match sim. Have more development coaches and professional staff around the clubs. Have better feeder comps. Don't destroy all the top 10 talent by sending crazy numbers of them to s**t clubs where they have no chance of ever developing properly. Pay the umpires a living wage so they don't have to take bribes from the AFL or Sportsbet to rig games or whatever they are doing now. etc etc. Seems like just the AFL are s**t at running a professional comp more than it is access to young and willing bodies. We need to be a 20-24 club comp to ever reach some degree of fairness in fixturing. If we had a 24 club comp today it'd be a 33% increase on clubs during a period of 50% pop increase. Dunno, seems doable at first glance but maybe the AFL being run better doesn't cut deeply enough into the embarrassing health of western youth.

A lot of that increase has been through immigration, with kids coming from rugby / soccer cultures as well, so not necessarily picking AFL as their chosen sport.

 

[boondy]

Is it raining yet

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Way off topic but since Simpson isn't going anywhere anytime soon:

1995 we go to 16 team comp. Population 18 million on dot.
2011/12 we go to 18 team comp, population is 22.5 million. 12.5% increase of comp size, on back of 25% population increase.
Still an 18 team comp in 2024 and population is just shy of 27 million, now a 50% population increase on 1995.

Not sure what the story is here, are there less 18 year olds than in 1995? Less 18 year olds playing sport? Less 18 year olds playing football?

Doesn't seem ideal. Bloody kids these days eh, we'll hit 50 million one day and they'll be saying we need to go back to a 12 team comp. And they'll probably be right.

Alternatively, maybe try invest some money back into the game. Have larger squads so if you get a few injuries you can still do match sim. Have more development coaches and professional staff around the clubs. Have better feeder comps. Don't destroy all the top 10 talent by sending crazy numbers of them to s**t clubs where they have no chance of ever developing properly. Pay the umpires a living wage so they don't have to take bribes from the AFL or Sportsbet to rig games or whatever they are doing now. etc etc. Seems like just the AFL are s**t at running a professional comp more than it is access to young and willing bodies. We need to be a 20-24 club comp to ever reach some degree of fairness in fixturing. If we had a 24 club comp today it'd be a 33% increase on clubs during a period of 50% pop increase. Dunno, seems doable at first glance but maybe the AFL being run better doesn't cut deeply enough into the embarrassing health of western youth.

Here is the problem, auskick numbers are great and kids play footy like they always did until they are about 14-16. The issue now is that the dropout of playing footy is higher than ever in history.
We have got to a point where if the player thinks they are not going to play AFL then they give it away.

The AFL have created a mess where they have sold to their public that only the top level matters and under that you are a nobody. All the steps to get there are ignored and all the levels below AFL are not being encouraged to pursue.

That our young people are no longer happy to become 200 game WAFL players or 200 game A grade Amatuer players means these clubs and footy underneath the AFL are going to get weaker and weaker and with less and less teams.

So while the AFL will prosper footy at all levels underneath it are dying a slow death. Go and have a look how many under 17 sides their are in WA and you will be stunned just how few their are. Finding 16 year olds who want to play footy is vary rare.

 

[KERRPOW]

They've also employed Ross Lyon. TWICE.

Insta-fold.

The sequel is funnier than the original.

 

[sharps24]

Here is the problem, auskick numbers are great and kids play footy like they always did until they are about 14-16. The issue now is that the dropout of playing footy is higher than ever in history.
We have got to a point where if the player thinks they are not going to play AFL then they give it away.

The AFL have created a mess where they have sold to their public that only the top level matters and under that you are a nobody. All the steps to get there are ignored and all the levels below AFL are not being encouraged to pursue.

That our young people are no longer happy to become 200 game WAFL players or 200 game A grade Amatuer players means these clubs and footy underneath the AFL are going to get weaker and weaker and with less and less teams.

So while the AFL will prosper footy at all levels underneath it are dying a slow death. Go and have a look how many under 17 sides their are in WA and you will be stunned just how few their are. Finding 16 year olds who want to play footy is vary rare.

Whats the solution? Bigger list sizes? national reserves comp? higher salaries for the state comps? all of the above?

For me I reckon the AFLPA is kind of screwing everyone over, the top flight are being paid way too much. If the code is going backwards and it clearly seems to be we probably need to be paying more people who play, rather than paying the people who play more. A WAFL career should be a worthwhile investment of ones time.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Whats the solution? Bigger list sizes? national reserves comp? higher salaries for the state comps? all of the above?

For me I reckon the AFLPA is kind of screwing everyone over, the top flight are being paid way too much. If the code is going backwards and it clearly seems to be we probably need to be paying more people who play, rather than paying the people who play more. A WAFL career should be a worthwhile investment of ones time.

I don't know what the solution is to get Juniors to stay playing longer, once upon a time the WAFL clubs invested heavily in their junior areas which gave the young guys a goal of where they wanted to play, But now as all the money is at the AFL level the WAFL clubs do very little in their zones. They simply don't have the staff or the funding to do it.
Bigger list sizes and a national reserves comp will be probably the worst thing that can happen to football as a whole, good for AFL clubs but pretty much a nightmare for all other leagues under it.

I am more of a smaller list size advocate and that the players who are on AFL lists who don't play AFL are playing meaningful football in the second tier level against well paid semi pro footballers.

But the pathway seems set, the AFL will just be there on its' own and everything underneath will become insignificant except the under 21's and they will also struggle because once not drafted a player will just say there is nothing in football for them to aspire to now.

I don't think it's a great outlook, AFL seems fine but after that I am very concerned for the sport.

 

[RookiePick]

I don't know what the solution is to get Juniors to stay playing longer, once upon a time the WAFL clubs invested heavily in their junior areas which gave the young guys a goal of where they wanted to play, But now as all the money is at the AFL level the WAFL clubs do very little in their zones. They simply don't have the staff or the funding to do it.
Bigger list sizes and a national reserves comp will be probably the worst thing that can happen to football as a whole, good for AFL clubs but pretty much a nightmare for all other leagues under it.

A pretty fair assessment. Most kids playing junior footy wouldn't be able to name a single player from the WAFL club they are supposedly aligned to. I'm not sure I have ever seen a player at a junior club event or function - which is not to blame them, the poor buggers have to work full time, play and train and I can't imagine they have the time or energy to donate more time into a non-paying endeavor.

It's a real pickle of a situation. There is no money there to fund promotion or activity to raise awareness or interest. With no awareness or interest you can't attract money. It's a vicious circle of decline.

 

[Rowan18]

I don't know what the solution is to get Juniors to stay playing longer, once upon a time the WAFL clubs invested heavily in their junior areas which gave the young guys a goal of where they wanted to play, But now as all the money is at the AFL level the WAFL clubs do very little in their zones. They simply don't have the staff or the funding to do it.
Bigger list sizes and a national reserves comp will be probably the worst thing that can happen to football as a whole, good for AFL clubs but pretty much a nightmare for all other leagues under it.

I am more of a smaller list size advocate and that the players who are on AFL lists who don't play AFL are playing meaningful football in the second tier level against well paid semi pro footballers.

But the pathway seems set, the AFL will just be there on its' own and everything underneath will become insignificant except the under 21's and they will also struggle because once not drafted a player will just say there is nothing in football for them to aspire to now.

I don't think it's a great outlook, AFL seems fine but after that I am very concerned for the sport.

It feels like it might become like NFL where no-one plays after high school unless they are pros.

The physical demands of footy are a challenge. My hockey club has teams all the way up to over 60s. When you go into the clubhouse the footy is always on, but there we all are, watching AFL but playing a completely different sport (which we know we can keep playing for most of our lives).

 

[Forward Press]

16 seems perfect

then play everyone twice home and away

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

It 'seems' perfect but there is no way we will have a 30 game season imo.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

Not that anyone asked but this is what I would do if I was dictator of the AFL:

Tas and NT to each have a team, 2 in WA, 2 in SA, 2 in NSW, and 2 in QLD. 20 Team competition.

Reform the draft to remove priority picks, bidding, father-son, academy, etc. Draft order should reflect the table at the end of the season.

Allow clubs to recruit mature players from the state leagues without having to go through the draft. Rule could be something like if a player has nominated for 3 drafts and has not been selected, clubs can simply offer them a contract.

Reduce the length of quarters from 20 minutes to 15, and extend the length of the H&A season.

Scrap the pre-season tournament and simply start round 1 then.

Extend the size of lists to about 45-50 but make it so that clubs don't have to fill every spot if they don't want/need to. Clubs can make the choice to take on more projects or keep shorter list sizes if they eye talent in upcoming drafts.

Hire an ex-judge/arbitrator to run the tribunal so that it actually follows basic legal precedents

Thank you for coming to my ted talk

Disagree on the length of game and not sure NT is viable but you make some great points.

State league players who've been overlooked in a certain number of drafts should be undrafted Free Agents. By that time they should get to choose where they play especially as they potentially have a life they need to uproot.

 

[Ghossein]

State league players who've been overlooked in a certain number of drafts should be undrafted Free Agents. By that time they should get to choose where they play especially as they potentially have a life they need to uproot.

One of the big deterrents to mature players is exactly that. Once a player is 21+ and playing in a state league they generally have a career underway, potentially a wife and kids they are supporting.

They aren't going to uproot all that for a 40k rookie contract, which has a very high likelihood in ending after 12 months. They might if a club offers 100k and locks it in for a number of years.

We are always talking about a lack of talent in the AFL so I don't see why this hasn't been addressed.