List Mgmt. Adelaide Crows 2021 List Management thread

[Mego Red]

We don't make moves like that, we are too conservative.

Classic BigFooty.

* post completely unrealistic trade of happy, contracted player

* Doesn't happen

* Club is too conservative

 

[Mego Red]

I don't think we gave him away, indeed i can see why we flicked him.

It was the wrong move IMO

You win some, you lose some.

Agreed.

We were right in knowing we were too one paced.

We were wrong in trading Lyons.

 

[Mego Red]

Brisbane also have Neale, Hipwood, Daniher, Cameron and many others on good $$$ with a number still to be signed up and looking for pay rises.
Bailey would be my number 1 target and I’d be offering 8-900k. He’s an elite player, with speed and growth to come. We have nothing like him.
I’m all in in him.
if we are serious, he could be the type to take us from good to elite down the track

Feels incredibly unrealistic.

He's a Darwin boy very happy in Brisbane, just signed a new contract with a pay rise to play for a successful team on the rise.

I rate him, but the time to offer cash was a year ago. Maybe he just wasn't interested.

 

[DJ75]

Feels incredibly unrealistic.

He's a Darwin boy very happy in Brisbane, just signed a new contract with a pay rise to play for a successful team on the rise.

I rate him, but the time to offer cash was a year ago. Maybe he just wasn't interested.

All very true. BUT, we need a Z Bailey/S Bolton type as much as we need anything. Clubs poached our best youngsters, so nothing like returning the favour.

 

[DJ75]

I would just like to make a bit of a point here.

I have always been a big fan of Ogilvie. I have spoken to him a few times over the years and he has always been super receptive and impressed me with his knowledge and commitment. Some of the criticism that we have seen over the years has been justified (and yes I know everyone will point to the Jones/Butters decision, but let's be real, it wasn't pick 1 V pick 2. Lots of clubs had the chance to draft Butters before Port did, meanwhile, Jones is really starting to develop well.)

What I did want to point out though is that it looks like Ogilvie absolutely killed the 2020 draft.

Thilthorpe is a gun. Perfect choice.

Pedlar is an AFL player. No doubt. He's going to be quality.

Cook took a little time to adjust (he's very much a kid still) to AFL demands, but I am incredibly excited about him. In fact I think he might end up the pick of the lot, which given how good the rest are is insane. His ceiling is massive.

Berry has already shown he is quality. An absolutely inspired choice.

Rowe was a bit of a stop gap choice. He's struggling a bit at the moment, but he's played every game this year, so was a reasonable choice.

We held our nerve and got both Borlase and Newchurch through to the rookie draft. Both have been reasonable this year. They might not make AFL level (although I still think Newchurch has a lot of potential), but are good rookie picks.

Meanwhile, I will also go on record as saying that I think Gollant is going to be very, very special. Worrell is showing something and O'Conner has debuted already (although I suspect he is limited and won't play much AFL). Fair to say the 2019 draft was a pretty good one as well.

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

I would just like to make a bit of a point here.

I have always been a big fan of Ogilvie. I have spoken to him a few times over the years and he has always been super receptive and impressed me with his knowledge and commitment. Some of the criticism that we have seen over the years has been justified (and yes I know everyone will point to the Jones/Butters decision, but let's be real, it wasn't pick 1 V pick 2. Lots of clubs had the chance to draft Butters before Port did, meanwhile, Jones is really starting to develop well.)

What I did want to point out though is that it looks like Ogilvie absolutely killed the 2020 draft.

Thilthorpe is a gun. Perfect choice.

Pedlar is an AFL player. No doubt. He's going to be quality.

Cook took a little time to adjust (he's very much a kid still) to AFL demands, but I am incredibly excited about him. In fact I think he might end up the pick of the lot, which given how good the rest are is insane. His ceiling is massive.

Berry has already shown he is quality. An absolutely inspired choice.

Rowe was a bit of a stop gap choice. He's struggling a bit at the moment, but he's played every game this year, so was a reasonable choice.

We held our nerve and got both Borlase and Newchurch through to the rookie draft. Both have been reasonable this year. They might not make AFL level (although I still think Newchurch has a lot of potential), but are good rookie picks.

Meanwhile, I will also go on record as saying that I think Gollant is going to be very, very special. Worrell is showing something and O'Conner has debuted already (although I suspect he is limited and won't play much AFL). Fair to say the 2019 draft was a pretty good one as well.

Gollant is a really interesting one. Took some nice clunks in the Sanfl yesterday, and a few other nice things at ground level.

I’m keen to see more, that’s for sure.

 

[Tom14]

Feels incredibly unrealistic.

He's a Darwin boy very happy in Brisbane, just signed a new contract with a pay rise to play for a successful team on the rise.

I rate him, but the time to offer cash was a year ago. Maybe he just wasn't interested.

Yeah I think if we (Bris) weren't having another season in contention and we'd left him unsigned then there could have been a risk of someone blowing us out of the water $ wise.

Thankfully we signed him, Starcevich, McCluggage and Rayner until at least 2024 before the season started and got ahead of this issue. We probably won't do too much this trade period as a result.

 

[1970crow]

Who gave him away to Brisbane?

doing brilliantly when you need a rabble like the Suns to make yourself feel better about your own decisions. Just the good old Trigg days where we were happy as long as we were better than the behemoth down the road.

 

[NTRabbit]

These are just young blokes. If someone is offering them 300k more than their current employer, they will go.

I'm not young, and for an extra $300k I'd pop a wheelie in the middle of the office while shouting about how incompetent and full of shit my current manager is on my way out.

 

[Jcpdragonx]

I would just like to make a bit of a point here.

I have always been a big fan of Ogilvie. I have spoken to him a few times over the years and he has always been super receptive and impressed me with his knowledge and commitment. Some of the criticism that we have seen over the years has been justified (and yes I know everyone will point to the Jones/Butters decision, but let's be real, it wasn't pick 1 V pick 2. Lots of clubs had the chance to draft Butters before Port did, meanwhile, Jones is really starting to develop well.)

What I did want to point out though is that it looks like Ogilvie absolutely killed the 2020 draft.

Thilthorpe is a gun. Perfect choice.

Pedlar is an AFL player. No doubt. He's going to be quality.

Cook took a little time to adjust (he's very much a kid still) to AFL demands, but I am incredibly excited about him. In fact I think he might end up the pick of the lot, which given how good the rest are is insane. His ceiling is massive.

Berry has already shown he is quality. An absolutely inspired choice.

Rowe was a bit of a stop gap choice. He's struggling a bit at the moment, but he's played every game this year, so was a reasonable choice.

We held our nerve and got both Borlase and Newchurch through to the rookie draft. Both have been reasonable this year. They might not make AFL level (although I still think Newchurch has a lot of potential), but are good rookie picks.

Meanwhile, I will also go on record as saying that I think Gollant is going to be very, very special. Worrell is showing something and O'Conner has debuted already (although I suspect he is limited and won't play much AFL). Fair to say the 2019 draft was a pretty good one as well.

Perhaps take off the tri coloured glasses for a minute. Himmelberg looked like our second tall fpr tje next 8 years last year. The top teams are stacked with superstars, and improving teams like Essendon and Freo have far better top end talent than us.

Cook is promosing but coming from a long way back, Berry's been okay but has his deficiencies, Pedlars had plenty injuries but looks good, Thilt looks great and keen to see his improvement next year, Worrell looked completely lost, as did O'Connor, Gollant is also long term project.

 

[DJ75]

Perhaps take off the tri coloured glasses for a minute. Himmelberg looked like our second tall fpr tje next 8 years last year. The top teams are stacked with superstars, and improving teams like Essendon and Freo have far better top end talent than us.

Cook is promosing but coming from a long way back, Berry's been okay but has his deficiencies, Pedlars had plenty injuries but looks good, Thilt looks great and keen to see his improvement next year, Worrell looked completely lost, as did O'Connor, Gollant is also long term project.

Must be fun living in your house.
Try taking off your pessimistic glasses.

 

[Torpedro]

Perhaps take off the tri coloured glasses for a minute. Himmelberg looked like our second tall fpr tje next 8 years last year. The top teams are stacked with superstars, and improving teams like Essendon and Freo have far better top end talent than us.

Cook is promosing but coming from a long way back, Berry's been okay but has his deficiencies, Pedlars had plenty injuries but looks good, Thilt looks great and keen to see his improvement next year, Worrell looked completely lost, as did O'Connor, Gollant is also long term project.

So Worrell's single game is enough to judge him on? Despite the fact he's been one of our best in the sanfl

 

[Jcpdragonx]

Must be fun living in your house.
Try taking off your pessimistic glasses.

You declared our entire draft hand last year a hit with a micro sample size. I'm saying wait and see. Jones last game in his first year is a prime example not to get ahead.

 

[Jcpdragonx]

So Worrell's single game is enough to judge him on? Despite the fact he's been one of our best in the sanfl

Didnt say Worrell was a bust, said he looked lost in his 1 afl game.

 

[rabidcrow]

At what point is it ok to bid then Luke? Is 2 ok, seeing as there's no cash reward. If not, do we wait until 5 or do you think he should just slip through to your pick where even you wouldn't select him so you can get him with multiple later picks. Clubs should just select based on their talent order regardless of academy or FS status. It's pretty simple.

Perhaps the AFL could make short term rule changes to make it easier for clubs to match pick 1-2 prospects and not put pressure on their list management. Hang on Luke they didn that for you last year when then changed how many picks you could take to the draft compared to list spots


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[rabidcrow]

It's money.

It's not hard.

1. When you are sh*t you have lots of bad or unready players

2. So, you have lots of spare cap, because your players aren't worth much

3. So, you can offer much more to gun players than contending clubs with maxed out salary caps can offer them to stay

Now the tables are turned.

It's time for us to think like the poacher, not the poached.

Money plays a part. Culture does too. If the place has no soul then dollars talk louder. We had a house of cards in 2017 - no culture/ close team bond foundation. So players left for dollars. Our management was terrible and provided the shortest premiership window of the AFL era


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[GrommoT]

How do you tell if a rebuild is on track?

Long, bad rebuilds
Melbourne 2007-2020
Carlton 2002-present day

Good, short rebuilds
West Coast 2008-2010
Hawthorn 2002-2006

Which one are we in?

We should have some idea by 2022/23.

Brought this to thread rather than this discussion disappear when the GBU thread peters out.


TL;DR: WCE took 4 years to get back to top 4 after bottoming out in 2008, while we are 1 year out after bottoming out in 2020.


Since you used WC to compare with, a rough look at their table finishes and ours.
WCE: 2007-3 .. '08-15(2nd last) .. '09-11 .. '10-16(last) .. '11-4 .. '12-5
AFC: 2017-2 .. '18-12 .. '19-11 .. '20-18(last) .. '21-16(?) .. '22-???

Basically, we both were near top in 2007/2017 - they bottomed out the next year (was tough beating the Lemons to bottom in those days) and we bottomed out two years later.

So if we're comparing ourselves with WCE circa 2008 and we followed their pattern, we'd be bottom again next year! And then into the top-4 in 2023.

Unfortunately for WC, the second time they bottomed coincided with GC being given their start up concessions (picks 1,2,3, 5, ...) - WC did draft Gaff with pick 4, nevertheless.


Also interesting is looking at the movement of senior/older players exiting club (retirements, delistings, player trade-outs), and entering club (player trade-ins).

Using {Retirement<>Delisting<>Player Trade-Outs_/_Player Trade-Ins} as the template gives an idea of the net loss/gain of older players:

WCE
2006: {?<>?<>1_/_1}
2007: {2<>3<>Judd_/_JJK} -5
... - top 4
2008: {1<>3<>0_/_0} -4 WC got PP 2008
... - first trough
2009: {4<>0<>2_/_0} -6
2010: {4<>7<>1_/_?} -12
2011: {2<>4<>1_/_1} -6
2012: {1<>2<>2_/_3} -2
2013: {3<>6<>0_/_1} -8

AFC
2016: {0<>1<>1_/_0} -2
2017: {1<>4<>3_/_2} -6
... - top 4
2018: {2<>6<>1_/_2} -7
2019: {2<>0<>5_/_1} -6
2020: {1<>0<>3_/_1} -3
... - first trough
2021: ...?


[ps. using wikipedia source of info]

 

[Danger Zone]

Should we be trying to develop Worrell as a Key Forward? Looks like it would suit his skills well and from memory he spent time there as a junior. We need another plan if Fog doesn't work out, and he has enough points of difference that he could play third tall behind Thilthorpe and Fog too.

 

[Redline]

It won't be said by the club, with the official line being we wanted JUH and budding helped us get Rowe, but the bid on JUH was to make Thilthorpe the second pick.


Takes away the scrutiny of being "pick 1" and pressure.

Plus KPP at pick 1 have not fared well.



The $10k investment package really is not part of any argument here. Over a career that is a pittance compared to earnings a pick 1 should get. Even as the package matures.



I would argue such a "carrot" should mean more to a guy ar pick 91 than pick 1.

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We had to do it, we have always said we pick the best player as per our rankings. I don't think Thilthorpe would even care.

 

[latinoheat]

Should we be trying to develop Worrell as a Key Forward? Looks like it would suit his skills well and from memory he spent time there as a junior. We need another plan if Fog doesn't work out, and he has enough points of difference that he could play third tall behind Thilthorpe and Fog too.

I’d like to see macasey tried forward. Seems too slow for defence. I’d have Worrell play back .

 

[LoBu]

This may be a bit off topic but relates to 2020 Draft.
Beveridge a hater and accuse Crows of being vindictive

Rival clubs warned against potential ‘vindictive’ bids on father-son prodigy

Ben Cotton from Fox Sports
July 2nd, 2021 6:52 pm

"Western Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge has warned rival clubs against potential “vindictive” bids for father-son prodigy Sam Darcy, saying it takes the gloss off the national draft’s No 1 pick.

Darcy – a 203cm ruckman/key forward and son of Bulldogs legend Luke – is being touted as a potential top two pick after booting six goals for Vic Metro last weekend.

The Bulldogs have the right to match any bid for Darcy so long as they have enough draft points.

But if Darcy was taken with Pick 1 by likely wooden spooners North Melbourne and the Bulldogs matched it, he would still receive the $10,000 investment package from the AFL and title of being the first overall selection – not the prospect who lands at Arden Street.

It would follow a similar outcome to last year’s draft – where the Adelaide Crows placed a bid on Jamarra Ugle-Hagan instead of Riley Thilthorpe with Pick 1 despite knowing that the Bulldogs would match it with Next Generation Academy rights.

As such, the Crows denied Thilthorpe – who they were already essentially locked into drafting – the $10,000 investment package and mantle of being Pick 1.

Speaking on 3AW, Beveridge conceded history could repeat itself and see Darcy receive a bid with Pick 1.

“He might and it was interesting last year with “Marra”, ultimately he gets the NAB portfolio, he gets the cash reward, he gets the recognition, with the club in Adelaide which nominated him and Riley Thilthorpe misses out on that,” the Bulldogs coach said.

“Personally if you know the Dogs are going to take him and you have the No 1 pick, wouldn’t you want your lad who is coming in to get that and let your lad have that even though you want to make us pay. There are not that many vindictive list managers and recruiters in the comp.”

The Herald Sun reports that rival clubs believe North Melbourne could bid on both Darcy and Collingwood father-son prospect Nick Daicos with the No. 1 pick."

I am glad Crows made them pay full price.

Translation:

We screwed over Adelaide, but then they screwed us over, which was really mean of them.

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[phill5158]

I’d like to see macasey tried forward. Seems too slow for defence. I’d have Worrell play back .

This is a good thing to have we have Worrell who can play both ends and McAsey who can also play both ends. I do agree with you I reckon McAsey should be tried forward again I remember that game he was tried there last year took a really good mark but the kick that followed it was horrible but that can improve. I think give him a run up forward in the reserves first before hand and see how he goes.

I still have massive faith in McAsey his 2020 highlights albeit relatively small showed good patches of play just that he is taking time to get where we want him to be much like Doedee. As for Worrell I see his best football being in defence, will be a very good player for us no doubt about it.

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[WeedsMullet84]

What on Earth are we going to do with our KPD's in the event that Talia makes a comeback?

From a list management perspective we've done well in tying Worrell and McAsey to 2 year contracts, but what are we doing with Murray, who remains unsigned? Are we playing him to put him in the shop window?

Mark my words, from reading some of the other club boards there a lot of people who are envious of our ability to identify KPD talent and develop our stock. My preference would be to entertain any offers for McAsey, as i think Murray & Worrell are much more mobile, reflecting the modern day tall defender.

We trialled Murray as a forward in the 2nd half of one game this year and in my opinion he looked fantastic. We had the chance to do that again on Saturday and we bizarrely sent Doedee up there (don't get me wrong he did ok, but it's not his future position). What a missed opportunity!

 

[Golumless]

What on Earth are we going to do with our KPD's in the event that Talia makes a comeback?

From a list management perspective we've done well in tying Worrell and McAsey to 2 year contracts, but what are we doing with Murray, who remains unsigned? Are we playing him to put him in the shop window?

Mark my words, from reading some of the other club boards there a lot of people who are envious of our ability to identify KPD talent and develop our stock. My preference would be to entertain any offers for McAsey, as i think Murray & Worrell are much more mobile, reflecting the modern day tall defender.

We trialled Murray as a forward in the 2nd half of one game this year and in my opinion he looked fantastic. We had the chance to do that again on Saturday and we bizarrely sent Doedee up there (don't get me wrong he did ok, but it's not his future position). What a missed opportunity!

It's certainly in our club DNA to continuously find good KPDs.

Depth is always nice, I guess, when it comes to Murray. A stop-gap whilst McAsey and Worrell develop in the SANFL and a bit of coverage if Talia never comes back.

 

[Scorpus]

What on Earth are we going to do with our KPD's in the event that Talia makes a comeback?

From a list management perspective we've done well in tying Worrell and McAsey to 2 year contracts, but what are we doing with Murray, who remains unsigned? Are we playing him to put him in the shop window?

Mark my words, from reading some of the other club boards there a lot of people who are envious of our ability to identify KPD talent and develop our stock. My preference would be to entertain any offers for McAsey, as i think Murray & Worrell are much more mobile, reflecting the modern day tall defender.

We trialled Murray as a forward in the 2nd half of one game this year and in my opinion he looked fantastic. We had the chance to do that again on Saturday and we bizarrely sent Doedee up there (don't get me wrong he did ok, but it's not his future position). What a missed opportunity!

We need to pick one of them to develop as a forward. Framtpon and Himmelberg both won't make it so we need to think about replacing their list spots, as well as Lynch and Walker, very quickly.

So basically it's out of McAsey, Murray and Worrell as to who we swing up the other end of the ground, and I think you can make a case for all of them.

Personally Worrell to me looks like a Nick Haynes type so I'd keep him as a defender. Murray could go either way but I'd really like to see us try McAsey forward for another stint. He looks physically better suited to a lead up forward role than a defender

We may also benefit from Jake Kelly being a free agent. If he leaves that would free up additional defensive room