AFL State of Origin...? How should it be structured

juss

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Or three years in late October to november.

I'd go with a 6 team comp

Vic, wa, sa, NSW/act, Qld/nt, Tas/international

Pools of three with one overlap game...then semis and a final
Don't think it works after the season has lost momentum, players have been sent for surgery, are holidaying in the off season and about to start preseason. Late Oct/Early Nov is an akward time.
 

NoobPie

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Don't think it works after the season has lost momentum, players have been sent for surgery, are holidaying in the off season and about to start preseason. Late Oct/Early Nov is an akward time.
In my opinion it is the only time that works. No one is going to accept disruption of the season. People are delusional if they think that clubs are going to release their best players during or right before the season. Best chance is the end of the season.

Also, football dominates the conversation well in to November without any football being played
 

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jmac91

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I have a Better Idea.
6 teams - Vic, WA, SA, NSW/ ACT, QLD/ NT, TAS
3 weeks a Year in Post season (What International Rules would be)
2 Years
Top 2 Plays Grand Final
 

telsor

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Michael Malthouse took the Vic view to the Eagles & that was that for Origin in WA.
Not sure it was him so much as that it was a noticeable number of WA players coming out of a single WA team.

Average SoO game would have been at least 1.5 teams worth of players from VFL and under 0.5 from WAFL/SANFL....So the average VFL club would have been losing ~3-4 players, while the average WAFL/SANFL club would lose ~1...So naturally, VFL clubs were more concerned about the risks, and took more steps to limit their exposure. When WCE was in the same situation (actually worse if memory serves) they behaved the same way.
 

juss

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In my opinion it is the only time that works. No one is going to accept disruption of the season. People are delusional if they think that clubs are going to release their best players during or right before the season. Best chance is the end of the season.

Also, football dominates the conversation well in to November without any football being played
At that stage most players fall into 3 brackets.

Unfit/boozing/resting/holidaying/Not match or skill ready.

In rehab from an earlier season injury and /sent for surgery preparing for preseason.

Still injured.

No one wants to see WA's second team take on a SA third team vs. VIC fourth best available team.

The mandatory off period won't work imo.
 

Kwality

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Not sure it was him so much as that it was a noticeable number of WA players coming out of a single WA team.

Average SoO game would have been at least 1.5 teams worth of players from VFL and under 0.5 from WAFL/SANFL....So the average VFL club would have been losing ~3-4 players, while the average WAFL/SANFL club would lose ~1...So naturally, VFL clubs were more concerned about the risks, and took more steps to limit their exposure. When WCE was in the same situation (actually worse if memory serves) they behaved the same way.
Nope, Mick was looking after his own interests/doing the job he was paid to do.
Courtesy of the VFL stuff up* over the formation of the Eagles squad, & the attempts to fix it, Micks squad included the cream of the 1985 Teal Cup squad ( John Worsfold, Bluey McKenna, Chris Lewis, Paul Peos, Chris Waterman, Peter Sumich and Scott Watters).
The early adopters were well behind the Eagles at this time.

* 35 in the initial squad compared to 53 for the rest, it was going to be evened up at some point & was.


You are spot on, the Eagles knew the rules they needed to follow to win a flag & Mick called the shots.
 
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speedpeck23

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Well this is what I can come up with.

Play it the second and third week after the AFL Grand Final with players from the two Grand Final teams excluded. This is to still try and give players a long break before the following season. The teams are selected on the Tuesday after Brownlow Medal Night, so more tv focus is on the AFL in the lead up to the Grand Final.

Have a team to represent every State, unfortunately the Territories miss out, but with players able to be pulled up from state leagues to help the smaller states. Maybe let NT pair with QLD and let ACT pair with NSW, but i'm not sure on it.

On a five year rotation, each state will only play one other state that year, on a one game at home and one game away arrangement. This could be expanded to include the territories though. So that it may look like:

Year 1:
Week 1 - WA vs SA in Perth, Vic vs Tas in Melbourne, QLD vs NSW in Brisbane
Week 2 - SA vs WA in Adelaide, Tas vs Vic in Hobart, NSW vs QLD in Sydney

Year 2
Week 1 - QLD vs Tas in Brisbane, SA vs NSW in Adelaide, Vic vs WA in Melbourne
Week 2 - Tas vs QLD in Hobart, NSW vs SA in Sydney, WA vs Vic in Perth

etc for following years.

And it is purely competed against the team you play that year, so no over-arching winning state, based on an aggregate score between the two games.
Agree with the teams NSW/ACT and QLD/NT , Try to create a competitive balance....wait for several seasons before NSW or Qld plays Victoria.... Initially play all matches in Southern states to get a crowd, Once NSW and Qld start winning ....extend to those states. Having star players identified as coming from NSW or Qld would be a massive boost for the profile of AFL in expansion states.
 

speedpeck23

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At that stage most players fall into 3 brackets.

Unfit/boozing/resting/holidaying/Not match or skill ready.

In rehab from an earlier season injury and /sent for surgery preparing for preseason.

Still injured.

No one wants to see WA's second team take on a SA third team vs. VIC fourth best available team.

The mandatory off period won't work imo.
Would definitely play it during season bye round...raise profile of top players and pay them big money...provide a real incentive.
 

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if everyone was on board with it (league admin, players, coaches etc.)…. I would do a "State of Origin" break/weekend in the middle of the season...

3 tiers, 6 teams - VIC, SA, WA, TAS, NSW/ACT, QLD/NT

You win, you go up a tier or stay in the top tier for next season
You lose, you go down a tier or stay in the bottom tier for next season

Home team alternates for each individual match-up... so if its VIC v WA at the MCG, the next time they play each other, the game will be in Perth

SoO had it's place at one point... no longer relevant/workable now... I mean if we ever get an Tasmania club in the future, it's possible that the majority of the side plays again during SoO as a "state" side which would be kind of redundant
 

big_e

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Division 1: WA, SA, Vic, NSW
Division 2: Qld, ACT, Tas, NT

Promotion/relegation - winner of div 2 goes up, loser of div 1 goes down. Similar timing to RL - say after round 6, round 11 and round 16.

But it will never happen.
 

Silent Alarm

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Yep, I like the idea of the first one back being in Perth, at Optus, for WA v Victoria on the eve of WA Day: Sunday 5.20pm.

It's a pity that weekend is round 10 and not 11. I'm sure clubs would prefer to have an 12/10 split than a 10/12 one, but I wonder if the season could be brought forward a weekend to work it out?

Hold it every three years. It gives it some real gravitas. It means genuinely good, long-term players earn their jumper. While there's no shame in having a great ten weeks and winning a state strip, it still seems a bit more... coveted if it's every three years. The next edition is also decided when the siren goes and confirmed a few months afterwards. Obviously the winner gets to host the next one. Builds some narrative and hype while also opening up dialogue of if it should be a rematch, what state is looking strong or overdue for a face-off... The other benefit is you can see how one time-slot worked and rejig. Perhaps 2023 could be a complete season-opener the Friday night before Carlton - Richmond, or the week before Christmas when players have just gotten back into training.

So in theory it could end up like:

2020: Western Australia v Victoria – Sunday, May 31 at Optus Stadium, Perth, 5.20pm.
2023: Western Australia v South Australia – Sunday, June 03 at Optus Stadium, Perth, 5.20pm.
2026: South Australia v Victoria – Saturday, October 10 at Adelaide Oval, Adelaide, 7.10pm.
2029: Victoria v South Australia – Friday, March 15 at the MCG, Melbourne, 7.50pm.
 
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RussellEbertHandball

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Once every 4 years when the Olympics are on, have a SoO carnival.

Its a dead period for other sports when the Olympics are on, which takes up 3 weekends over 16 days from opening to closing ceremonies and Ch 7 will be the Olympic network and footy network for the next decade. You could sell the carnival to 9 or 10 to host.

So play it over 2 of those first weekends, have Saturday games, Wednesday night games and then Sunday games.

First one have it like U/18 comp ie Vic Metro, Vic Country, WA and SA in Div 1 and in Div 2 have NSW/ACT, Qld, Tas, NT. Then have promotion and relegation and eventually merger the 2 Vic teams as you work out a better model.

The real issue would be that the Olympics vary when held between mid July to late August. Ideally early July would be good, and the majority of players would get 2 not 1 weekend off and refreshed for the last month of finals.

These are the days of the last 4 Olympics and next 3.

2004 Athens 13 Aug to 29 Aug
2008 Beijing 8 Aug to 24 Aug
2012 London 27 July to 12 Aug
2016 Rio 5 Aug to 21 Aug
2020 Tokyo 24 July to 9 Aug
2024 Paris 26 July to 11 Aug
2028 Los Angeles 21 July to 6 Aug

LA games 21st is a Friday so a Saturday 22nd through to Sunday 30th July games would mean 4 games left in August a finals bye weekend and GF on Saturday 30th September.

You could start it Saturday 15th July and finish Sunday 23rd, so that leaves 5 games before finals, as most of the sports media and general media start going all Olympics the weekend before the opening ceremony.

Paris games the same, start it the week before, Saturday 20th and finish Sunday the 27th July which would leave 4 weekends, the bye and 28th September GF.

But the players thru their PA would have to demand this to happen, rather than fans or the AFL wanting it. If the players don't buy in, it will be a flop.
 

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kid_a

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Two divisions and both have two matches to start of the cycle, the two winners in each division playoff in a final, the two losers of div 1 play in the relegation playoff where the loser of that match is dropped down to division 2 and replaced by the division 2 winnners

Finals and relegation game to be held the following year two weeks before the beginning of the regular season.

So it'd look something like this:

May 2021:
div 1
Vic 114-74 SA @ Docklands
WA 103-69 NSW/ACT @ Perth Stadium
div 2
QLD 87-54 NT @ Carrara
Tas 116-62 Internationals @ Yorke Park

March 2022:
div 1 final
Vic 86-89 WA @ Docklands (vic host the final having been the bigger winner percentage wise from the semi's)
div 1 relegations(survival) game
NSW/ACT 69-85 SA @ Giants Stadium
div 2 final
Tas 64-99 QLD @ Yorke Park
***WA are champions of Australia, NSW/ACT are relegated and replaced in div 1 by QLD

May 2023:
div 1
WA - QLD @ Perth Stadium
Vic - SA @ Docklands
div 2
NSW/ACT - Internationals @ Manuka Oval
Tas - NT @ Bellrieve Oval

March 2024:
finals & relegation game

and so on...
 

NoobPie

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So I just can't see it working at any other time than after the end of the AFL season

1. there is no way clubs are going to be accommodating of games in the middle of the season (or a week before it)
2. the game is too complex nowadays to be able to cobble together a team and get them to play together that weekend - they would need at least a couple of weeks to drill particularly game plans etc

I agree that the "gravitas" could only be established and maintained by doing it periodically (i.e. once ever 3 or 4 years) but it would need to be at the end of the season
 

RussellEbertHandball

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2. the game is too complex nowadays to be able to cobble together a team and get them to play together that weekend - they would need at least a couple of weeks to drill particularly game plans etc
What is so complex about the game that they couldn't learn in a couple of training session? Its not as if the coaches are going to employ some complex negative shutdown strategies to be a 8 goals vs 7 goals type game under the roof in perfect conditions.

Maybe that is the selling point for SoO. Sell it to the players that you will able to leave the bullshit of professional modern footy behind, and come and play the game like you did when you fell in love with as a kid.

I can't see coaches playing all the game with +1 or +2 defenders after the centre bounce lets people move out of 6-6-6 formation. The coaches wont coach to not lose and save their jobs like you get in the AFL comp.

Some good cash to play, some footy fun, some beers and bonding mid week like the NRL SoO boys do, might be the hook to get the players interested.
 

LeeARM

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I would keep it as a 1 weekend event and just have 1 game every year between 2 of Vic, WA and SA with the winner staying on.
Possibly have another game between 2 of NSW, Qld, Tas and NT if there's enough interest (and available players).
Have it in October, after the season so that injuries aren't as much of an issue.
 

NoobPie

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What is so complex about the game that they couldn't learn in a couple of training session? Its not as if the coaches are going to employ some complex negative shutdown strategies to be a 8 goals vs 7 goals type game under the roof in perfect conditions.

Maybe that is the selling point for SoO. Sell it to the players that you will able to leave the bulls**t of professional modern footy behind, and come and play the game like you did when you fell in love with as a kid.

I can't see coaches playing all the game with +1 or +2 defenders after the centre bounce lets people move out of 6-6-6 formation. The coaches wont coach to not lose and save their jobs like you get in the AFL comp.

Some good cash to play, some footy fun, some beers and bonding mid week like the NRL SoO boys do, might be the hook to get the players interested.
Plus 1s and 2s? Seriously?

Any comparisons with rugby league are ridiculous. The game is the most simple and monotonous sport on the planet and the NRL is played in front of empty stadiums.

An AFL state of origin would need to have multiple weeks for the players to train together and would need to be at the end of the season as not to disturb the AFL season
 

RussellEbertHandball

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Plus 1s and 2s? Seriously?

Any comparisons with rugby league are ridiculous. The game is the most simple and monotonous sport on the planet and the NRL is played in front of empty stadiums.

An AFL state of origin would need to have multiple weeks for the players to train together and would need to be at the end of the season as not to disturb the AFL season
Aussie rules is a simple game. Modern coaches have tried to turn into soccer with using hands.

List what the bloody hell they have to spend multiple weeks training to learn and get right?

Its not going to some sort of massive high stakes games the first couple of times they play. It will exhibition type games like the pro bowl in the NFL.
 

NoobPie

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Aussie rules is a simple game. Modern coaches have tried to turn into soccer with using hands.

List what the bloody hell they have to spend multiple weeks training to learn and get right?

Its not going to some sort of massive high stakes games the first couple of times they play. It will exhibition type games like the pro bowl in the NFL.
Ahh, another one who confuses their lack of comprension with the games apparent lack of complexity

30 years ago you could name someone right half back and that would be enough. What would that mean to a modern player?
 

RussellEbertHandball

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Ahh, another one who confuses their lack of comprension with the games apparent lack of complexity

30 years ago you could name someone right half back and that would be enough. What would that mean to a modern player?
Please list what you think the players have to work thru for 2 weeks to play basically exhibition games - in October - their holiday period???
 

NoobPie

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Please list what you think the players have to work thru for 2 weeks to play basically exhibition games - in October - their holiday period???
Well done. You've managed to move the goal posts, avoid my question and then have the audacity to ask me one at the same time!

If they are to introduce state of origin tournaments it won't be as "basically exhibition games" - they will be serious tournaments or otherwise there is no point

Given this, teams will need to develop game plans; understandings of how they'll organise in different game scenarios ; how they'll transition between possession, defence and stoppage; running patterns of forwards etc

It is not like, say, rugby league where positions and roles and heavily shaped by the regimented rules and the monotonous bore of a game that has been produced by the progressive removal of contested possession.

To call the modern game "soccer with using hands" makes me wonder what you actually think you are watching. It does shed light on why you might think that you could just throw 36 modern professional players out on to a football ground and you would end up with a coherent spectacle
 

RussellEbertHandball

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Well done. You've managed to move the goal posts, avoid my question and then have the audacity to ask me one at the same time!

If they are to introduce state of origin tournaments it won't be as "basically exhibition games" - they will be serious tournaments or otherwise there is no point

Given this, teams will need to develop game plans; understandings of how they'll organise in different game scenarios ; how they'll transition between possession, defence and stoppage; running patterns of forwards etc

It is not like, say, rugby league where positions and roles and heavily shaped by the regimented rules and the monotonous bore of a game that has been produced by the progressive removal of contested possession.

To call the modern game "soccer with using hands" makes me wonder what you actually think you are watching. It does shed light on why you might think that you could just throw 36 modern professional players out on to a football ground and you would end up with a coherent spectacle
Hang on, I asked you a question, you avoided it and asked me one and now you accuse me of audacity.

You are not going to get these games being much more than exhibition games. If the OP thought that then he/she is living in fantasy land. These games will be like the NFL Pro Bowl Games. That's all.

They are not going to go into fine details minutia like you think it will and require rocket science preparation.

The soccer with hands comment comes from the fact that most clubs are trying to copy Ajax and Barcelona's Total Football game strategies. Use the high press, make the field as small as possible inside your forward 50, keep players on the outside to stop the oppo getting an easy out, keep possession at all cost, move the ball around the arc rather than just blaze away etc. Others are studying the counter attacking style you see a lot of in the Italian and German leagues.

Watch a decent standard soccer game and watch an AFL game and you can see the coaches have taken strategies straight out of soccer. Why does Clarko go to Bolton Wanderers nearly every year of his coaching tenure in the off season for a refresher course, as well as other big soccer clubs?? Why do other club coaches go and spend time with EPL and Euro soccer clubs? For the football shirts and chanting? One game has been full time professional for 30 or 40 years more than the other and has evolved it strategies ad tactics more than the other one. The other one is copying straight from its play book.
 

NoobPie

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Hang on, I asked you a question, you avoided it and asked me one and now you accuse me of audacity.

You are not going to get these games being much more than exhibition games. If the OP thought that then he/she is living in fantasy land. These games will be like the NFL Pro Bowl Games. That's all.

They are not going to go into fine details minutia like you think it will and require rocket science preparation.

The soccer with hands comment comes from the fact that most clubs are trying to copy Ajax and Barcelona's Total Football game strategies. Use the high press, make the field as small as possible inside your forward 50, keep players on the outside to stop the oppo getting an easy out, keep possession at all cost, move the ball around the arc rather than just blaze away etc. Others are studying the counter attacking style you see a lot of in the Italian and German leagues.

Watch a decent standard soccer game and watch an AFL game and you can see the coaches have taken strategies straight out of soccer. Why does Clarko go to Bolton Wanderers nearly every year of his coaching tenure in the off season for a refresher course, as well as other big soccer clubs?? Why do other club coaches go and spend time with EPL and Euro soccer clubs? For the football shirts and chanting? One game has been full time professional for 30 or 40 years more than the other and has evolved it strategies ad tactics more than the other one. The other one is copying straight from its play book.
The AFL has borrowed from soccer as well as many other sports. To try to assert the AFL tactical evolution over the last 20 years is a direct transfer from soccer is profoundly superficial and is the assertion of a very limited mind. Soccer has barely anything to offer in regards to the contested / stoppage game for instance. Rugby union has offered more than soccer at that level and the transitioning between the stoppage situation to defence and attack has probably more analogy (but very limited) with ice hockey and basketball

Ironically the main reason Australian football's "tactical evolution" happened after other professional invasion sports is because of the comlexity involved in organising 18 players across a much bigger ground. Basketball was way ahead of soccer but no fool would be fool enough to try and claim that soccer's zoning was lifted mindlessly from basketball.

The bottom line now though is, post revolution, you can't expect a team of footballers who have payed in systems that are developed and drilled over months to revert back to meat and veg positional man on man play from the 80s. Only someonw with no grasp of the modern game could possibly think that

It is low likelihood that SoO will ever be brought back but there is zero likelihood that it would come back as a light hearted exhibition game. That's almost as ridiculous as thinkinh the modern game is just some cartoonish transfer of soccer strategies!
 

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