AOC v republican Karen's (and Ted)

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Ghost Patrol

Vice President of Antifa (not PRGuy)
Sep 17, 2019
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Yes i have in countless posts. Human rights are rights that do not contradict other rights in any society regardless of size or wealth. That is the only definition that makes sense to me that doesnt reduce rights down to things that simply would be nice to have In society.

nothing wrong with doing that. Its what the UN have done. But it removes the objective nature of a right and therefore their power as a concept. Its why many academics now say that human rights are an imaginary construct. Cos thats what the UN has reduced it to. It enables right wingers to reject the concept of humam rights. I however believe rights are an objective reality.
Have you ever put a band-aid on someone else?
 

Roby

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Yes i have in countless posts. Human rights are rights that do not contradict other rights in any society regardless of size or wealth. That is the only definition that makes sense to me that doesnt reduce rights down to things that simply would be nice to have In society.

nothing wrong with doing that. Its what the UN have done. But it removes the objective nature of right and therefore their power as a concept.
The basis of human rights have nothing to with "whether they contradict with other rights". This is an insane postulation of its existence that I've never heard before or anyone had ever uttered.
 

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Seeds

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Health care. Were you forced into providing it?
actually yes we are forced to provide it. Doesnt mean i wouldnt of done it anyway. But plenty of other people in our society would rather not give up taxes for free health care to others. They are forced to.

a right is not something that requires the action of others. It does require a lack of certain actions in others however but it never requires others to act (unless it is to rectify a right that has already been violated).

the freedom to avoid harm from others, the freedom to keep the fruits of your labour, the freedom of movement, the freedom from irrelevant discrimination. These along with others are all human rights. They do not contradict each other and can exist in any society regardless of size or wealth. even if you are the only person on the planet.

i want society to have free education, welfare support and free health care. But not cos they are a human right. I want them cause they make societies on average happier despite the fact they contradict human rights. Im a utilitarian. not a libertarian. Libertarians advocate human rights (my definition of human rights) as the end goal of life even if they dont say it specifically. Utilitarians advocate happiness instead.
 
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Seeds

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Which dictionary are you using?
My own definition based on the readings of various books on the topic. Maybe do some reading of your own rather then rely on dictionaries which just jot down a number of definitions (Often inconsistent with each other) based on how the common people use the term.
 
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Ghost Patrol

Vice President of Antifa (not PRGuy)
Sep 17, 2019
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actually yes we are forced to provide it. Doesnt mean i wouldnt of done it anyway. But plenty of other people in our society would rather not give up taxes for free health care to others. They are forced to.

a right is not something that requires the action of others. It does require a lack of certain actions in others however but it never requires others to act (unless it is to rectify a right that has already been violated).

the freedom to avoid harm from others, the freedom to keep the fruits of your labour, the freedom of movement, the freedom from irrelevant discrimination. These along with others are all human rights. They do not contradict each other and can exist in any society regardless of size or wealth. even if you are the only person on the planet.

i want society to have free education, welfare support and free health care. But not cos they are a human right. I want them cause they make societies on average happier despite the fact they contradict human rights. Im a utilitarian. not a libertarian. Libertarians advocate human rights (my definition of human rights) as the end goal of life even if they dont say it specifically. Utilitarians advocate happiness instead.
It's also your right to help, or accept help from other humans.

No one is forcing doctors and nurses to go to work.
 

Roby

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actually yes we are forced to provide it. Doesnt mean i wouldnt of done it anyway. But plenty of other people in our society would rather not give up taxes for free health care to others. They are forced to.
Again this highly incorrect.

You are not forced to pay for health care of others. You're making sh*t up in your mind that does not exist.

Even if you don't pay for healthcare nobody at a hospital here would refuse to treat, you know human rights and all.
 

Chief

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My own definition based on the readings of various books on the topic. Maybe do some reading of your own rather then rely on dictionaries which just jot down a number of definitions (Often inconsistent with each other) based on how the common people use the term.
You've made up your own definition and measured statements against that definition. Not the definition the original speaker was using.

That's a little nuts.
 

Johnny Bananas

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But plenty of other people in our society would rather not give up taxes for free health care to others. They are forced to.
Plenty of people in our society would rather not let other people own property and possessions and would rather take it from them. They are forced to comply by the law. Is this the standard we are taking for human rights now, what people would rather not do unless compelled to by an authority?

a right is not something that requires the action of others. It does require a lack of certain actions in others however but it never requires others to act (unless it is to rectify a right that has already been violated).
Gee whiz, your concept of rights has a lot of caveats.
 

Seeds

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Plenty of people in our society would rather not let other people own property and possessions and would rather take it from them. They are forced to comply by the law. Is this the standard we are taking for human rights now, what people would rather not do unless compelled to by an authority?


Gee whiz, your concept of rights has a lot of caveats.
Whats your definition of a human right as compared to what counts as a right?

my definition is pretty much the same as John Lockes:

John Locke claimed that certain rights self-evidently pertain to individuals as human beings because these rights existed in the hypotheticalstate of nature” before humankind entered civil society. Chief among them are the rights to life, liberty (freedom from arbitrary rule), and property.

the caveat is they can exist in a state of nature, can be applied to all and do not violate each other. Its not that difficult a concept to understand.
 
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Seeds

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Yes, it can be.

BUT - I tend to agree about "health care" not being a universal human right. "Health care to the best of the ability of the community/state" might be.
not by my definition as human rights should be applicable even if you are the only person in your society.
 

sherb

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How is health care in any way a human right?

to get access to health care you have to force others to work on your behalf violating other human rights.

a human right cant be one that requires other human rights to be violated in order to access it.

free health care is a great achievement of a wealthy society. But its not a human right.

and what the hell does being a whining woman have to do with white conspiracy theories?
The quote in the opening post isn't stating that it is.

It's suggesting that, when held as a view, it isn't as extreme as those views held by white supremacists.
 

Seeds

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Then nobody else has the right to step in and stop you putting a band aid on yourself.
Huh? but thats the same in any society including those that dont have free health care.

no one advocating free health care as a humam right is advocating it simply as the right to treat yourself. They are advocating it as others having to treat you.
 

Roby

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Huh? but thats the same in any society including those that dont have free health care.

no one advocating free health care as a humam right is advocating it simply as the right to treat yourself. They are advocating it as others having to treat you.
Universal and free health care is a good thing. I'm not sure why you're trying to get into semantically charged argument about it.
 

Blue1980

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I find it bizarre certain Americans associate universal health care with the communism
Right wing/wealthy forces have really brainwashed a lot of people, to argue against their own interests.

What is the argument? Universal health care, you know who likes that? Communists? Communists such as Stalin, Stalin killed 5 million people, you will be killed and live under communist rule!
 

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