Are Led Zeppelin over hyped?

[AndSmithMustScore]

First off let me say i think they are a great band with a talented line up.

BUT!

Alot of polls have them rated as the best or close to the best and i can't see that IMO.

To me they were a successful money making venture.

So much of their work is just ripped off from other artists, and alot of stuff they got away without crediting, but they did however cop a few law suits over the years(whole lotta love, lemon song).

Too many people mix up the terms 'songwriting' and 'song-arranging. Zep were only average song writers, but they were excellent song arrangers.

Writing a great song or great songs does NOT make you a great songwriter. I will fully agree that the best songs of Zep are simply fantastic, and I am fully happy to listen to them.

But the filler is often not just mediocre, it's damn near unlistenable. Whether a banal ballad like 'Thank You' or the shitty 'Misty Mountain Hop' or most of the second disc of Physical Grafitti, this group consistently had far too much filler on their albums for them to be considered 'the greatest band of all time.'

As a singer Plant was very hit and miss, and after a while his voice can be down right bloody annoying.

Page is a great guitarist, but iv'e read more than a few reviews that state he's also at times a rather sloppy guitarist. And often the terms "pretentious ****er" are used to describe alot of his work with Zep.

So for all this mystical adoration of Led Zep i feel they are in some ways overated in the music world by some people especially when it comes to influence and overall musical ability.

To my way of thinking Zep are the kind of bands "most" people who get into them listen to during a certain age in ther lives(and then move on), where as bands like The Beatles, Stones, The Who(and the Kinks ) tend to be listened to people of all ages through all different periods of their lives.

Yes Zep were one hell of a talented line up, and gave us a few brilliant songs, but other than that?



Discuss.

 

[wally funk]

well, led zeppelin 1 and 2 were masterpeices and 3 and 4 were pretty damn good i think.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

well, led zeppelin 1 and 2 were masterpeices and 3 and 4 were pretty damn good i think.

I was the best.

All other albums to follow are ok but not as great as they are sometimes portrayed considering their apparent talent.

Dazed and Confused is a classic track, but it's just a Yardbirds rip off.

I guess that's my biggest sticking point with them.

They are one of the biggest rip off merchants ever, but they just did it well.

Nothing was very original about them.

Even some of Bonham's efforts were just a Keith Moon wannabe thing.

Sure every band draws inspiration from another song or artists for a track or two on their albums, but LZ did it with so many tracks it's hard for me to rate them so highly knowing that.

 

[Carlos]

Even some of Bonham's efforts were just a Keith Moon wannabe thing.

As much as i have become an absolute Zep nut over the last few years, i didnt necessarily disagree with much of what you wrote until this bit.

But regardless of my own opinion of that statement, i'm really keen to read you expand on it for me please.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

As much as i have become an absolute Zep nut over the last few years, i didnt necessarily disagree with much of what you wrote until this bit.

But regardless of my own opinion of that statement, i'm really keen to read you expand on it for me please.

I'm reffering to his antics, not his greatness as a drummer as both were outstanding drummers.

The debuched lifestyles even down to the throwing tv's out of hotels always to me seemed like Bonham had looked at Moon and said i want to be like him.

 

[Carlos]

I'm reffering to his antics, not his greatness as a drummer as both were outstanding drummers.

The debuched lifestyles even down to the throwing tv's out of hotels always to me seemed like Bonham had looked at Moon and said i want to be like him.

Fair enough. As drummers, what made Bonzo the legend that he is couldn't be more far removed from what Moon was known for. I'll leave my opinion of each player's ability out of it though.

But i certainly understand the lifestyle comparisons, even down to the sad manners of their deaths. In terms of one trying to emulate the other, i just think they were both fond of excesses and had access to them in spades due to who and what they were.

 

[krisholio14]

Overrated? Name another band who can say straight up that their first 6 albums are all bonafide classics?

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Overrated? Name another band who can say straight up that their first 6 albums are all bonafide classics?

Yup overated.

There's alot of ordinary stuff on those those albums so i don't think you can call their first 6 albums classics.

There are moments of pure genius but the fillers on alot of the albums really aren't that good in fact some are down right awful.

Sure everyband has fillers but for a band with their legendary staus they have way too much so so material considering they ripped alot of it anyway.

As musos not many bands could match them for individual talent.

But they wouldnt be in the top 100 song writers ever.

Plant's vocals suit some of their material great, but as a vocalist he's not that great.

As said they aren't an original band.

Zep II would go down as their most ripped album.

 

[sainters]

AndSmithMustScore are you on drugs?

Certainly one of the best.

 

[krisholio14]

Yup overated.

There's alot of ordinary stuff on those those albums so i don't think you can call their first 6 albums classics.

There are moments of pure genius but the fillers on alot of the albums really aren't that good in fact some are down right awful.

Sure everyband has fillers but for a band with their legendary staus they have way too much so so material considering they ripped alot of it anyway.

As musos not many bands could match them for individual talent.

But they wouldnt be in the top 100 song writers ever.

Plant's vocals suit some of their material great, but as a vocalist he's not that great.

As said they aren't an original band.

Zep II would go down as their most ripped album.

you make some very interesting points smith. and i dont entirely disagree with what youre saying. possibly the bit about filler tho. apart from physical grafitti.

the thing with led zeppelin that stands out is the chemistry between the band members. i think that is what ultimately sets apart the good bands from the truly great bands. led zep brought a whole vibe to their music which gave them the edge over other bands. i dont listen to anywhere near as much of them as i used to, but any time i happen to hear one of their songs, or even put one on myself, i am always reminded of the power these guys had when they made music together.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

AndSmithMustScore are you on drugs?

Certainly one of the best.

No i'm not on drugs, Led Zeppelin were though.

I'm just critiquing a band i feel are often overated.

I think iv'e presented valid points as to why i think their hype isn't always deserved.

But iv'e not denied the obvious talent within the bands musicians.

It's often the fan who doesn't know the background of songs that gets fooled into thinking a bands genius was their own.

Would you like me to list all the songs who's riff have been taken from other artists?

Perhaps state why they weren't that good when Plant went all Tolkien like in more than a few of their songs and for my mind never really carried it off.

At no point am i denying their talents as musicians, i'm questioning their abilities in those other things that make up music, you know, lyrics and singing.

 

[johnnyhoward]

I agree that they weren't the absolute best songwriters - the amount of dud songs they made attests to that. But they made up for it with some classic riffs (Whole Lotta Love, Immigrant Song, Over the Hills and Far Away are some of my favourites) and great albums, particularly their first four.

Still, most (if not all) bands today release their albums with a bit to a lot of filler, but aren't able to match Zeppelin at their peak moments.

Onto your point though Smith, they may have ripped off a few of their ideas - but do you think this downgrades their status as one of the top 3 bands ever? I was surprised to hear a year or two ago that Whole Lotta Love wasn't even their own song (they tried to pass it off as their own, which was disappointing) - but they were influential as one of the first metal bands. And their "cover" of Whole Lotta Love is 10000x better than the original "You Need Love".

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

you make some very interesting points smith. and i dont entirely disagree with what youre saying. possibly the bit about filler tho. apart from physical grafitti.

the thing with led zeppelin that stands out is the chemistry between the band members. i think that is what ultimately sets apart the good bands from the truly great bands. led zep brought a whole vibe to their music which gave them the edge over other bands. i dont listen to anywhere near as much of them as i used to, but any time i happen to hear one of their songs, or even put one on myself, i am always reminded of the power these guys had when they made music together.

You do prove a point of mine earlier i made about their music.

Alot of people get into Zep and during a period of their life they are massive, but then people seem to move on from them.

Bands like the Beatles, Stones etc do tend to keep their fans through all kinds of trends and ages of people.

I too like Zep, but i found the more i got into them and the music the more i realised that when i compared them to other artists they started to come up short in more than a few areas.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

I agree that they weren't the absolute best songwriters - the amount of dud songs they made attests to that. But they made up for it with some classic riffs (Whole Lotta Love, Immigrant Song, Over the Hills and Far Away are some of my favourites) and great albums, particularly their first four.

Still, most (if not all) bands today release their albums with a bit to a lot of filler, but aren't able to match Zeppelin at their peak moments.

Onto your point though Smith, they may have ripped off a few of their ideas - but do you think this downgrades their status as one of the top 3 bands ever? I was surprised to hear a year or two ago that Whole Lotta Love wasn't even their own song (they tried to pass it off as their own, which was disappointing) - but they were influential as one of the first metal bands. And their "cover" of Whole Lotta Love is 10000x better than the original "You Need Love".

For mine it what i see as a potential weakness as in using others riffs was also their strength, especially for Page.

Page was just brilliant at taking someone elses riffs and turning them into a something often freakish.

But that's why i wonder why such a talented guitarist couldnt develop a much higher element of his own original riffs.

Even the concept of their first album was inspired by Jeff Beck's Truth, which up until Zeps's 1 was the heaviest album probably released at that stage.

For those that don't know Beck brought out in 68 this album, and what was on it, none other than "You Shook Me", which would also appear on Zeps debut album.

And this is another sticking point on Zep for me, Beck was the equal of Page possibly even more creative, it should be remembered that Page was there all through the 60's and didn't really do much.

It was only once he got in with Beck and The Yardbirds did he seem to start wanting to make his own music, and maybe this has alot to do with Beck being very experimental while with the Yardbirds and that gave Page ideas as to what could be done with a guitar.

So i wonder would Page have remained a session guitarist if The Yardbirds hadnt come along and opened his eyes up a bit.

I agree that they did influence certain bands and the like but i'm not sure sometimes they are as big an influence as some people might make them out to be.

I only say this because Zep themselves seemed to have been a band heavily influenced by bands like The Who and someone like Jeff Beck.

 

[The_Eagles]

Stairway to Heaven carries a fair bit of weight in the argument

 

[volcboy]

No

Every band 'copies' or reinterprets music and music styles from their influences - does that make the Rolling Stones (who've played ripped off blues 'covers' for 40 years) over hyped?

I disagree with the 'filler' tag - the fact that they experimented with different types of music (eg. III) and styles is a plus. They could have just churned out the same old blues album after album, but didn't.

Watch their live DVD and you will see some of the most brilliant live music performance of all time. No current band could come close.

 

[evo]

Discuss.

Burn the heretic!

 

[evo]

So i wonder would Page have remained a session guitarist if The Yardbirds hadnt come along and opened his eyes up a bit.

Surely you jest.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

No

Every band 'copies' or reinterprets music and music styles from their influences - does that make the Rolling Stones (who've played ripped off blues 'covers' for 40 years) over hyped?

I disagree with the 'filler' tag - the fact that they experimented with different types of music (eg. III) and styles is a plus. They could have just churned out the same old blues album after album, but didn't.

Watch their live DVD and you will see some of the most brilliant live music performance of all time. No current band could come close.

Early on yes. The Stones unlike LZ didn't put their best album out first.

The Stones actually got better with time, LZ got worse. Why?

Because The Stones had more creative talent than LZ.

Sorry but Jagger/Richards as a writing/arranging combo pisses all over Plant/Page.

 

[Papa G]

The Beatles have fillers in all their albums, so what is your point? I've yet to hear the perfect album. In all of Zeps first 6 albums the good far outweigh the bad.

Why was Page successful and Jeff Beck relatively not so?

Don't all bands/ singers borrow or are influenced by others.

Plant wasn't a great singer but his voice suited the music? How would Pavaroti go singing a Bob Dylan song?

Bottom line is Led Zeppelin are the greatest rock band ever and are not over rated. Rolling Stones come close but the fact they have hung on too long goes against them. Beatles incredibly over rated musically, especially their 3 riff teeny booper early crap.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Surely you jest.

You do realise he knocked back joining an already successful Yardbirds because being a session muso paid better.

If Beck hadn't convinced him to join who knows where he might have ended up.

One things for sure LZ wouldn't have happened.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

The Beatles have fillers in all their albums, so what is your point? I've yet to hear the perfect album. In all of Zeps first 6 albums the good far outweigh the bad.

Why was Page successful and Jeff Beck relatively not so?

Don't all bands/ singers borrow or are influenced by others.

Plant wasn't a great singer but his voice suited the music? How would Pavaroti go singing a Bob Dylan song?

Bottom line is Led Zeppelin are the greatest rock band ever and are not over rated. Rolling Stones come close but the fact they have hung on too long goes against them. Beatles incredibly over rated musically, especially their 3 riff teeny booper early crap.

Because Beck wasn't in it for the money.

He also realised he couldn't sing or write for shit so he never bothered to.

And yes every band has fillers, but compared to The Beatles, Stones, Who etc. who are up there as the best bands, LZ had far more filler on their albums.

LZ did hold on too long, from House of the Holy onwards they had begun to lose it.

As for the Beatles, sorry but don't even put Page and Plant in the same breath as Lennon/McArtney when it comes to song writing/arranging music.

That's why i keep saying LZ can't be the greatest band of all time because they wrote on the whole average lyrics, sung most of them over the top in an annoying manner and were only saved by Page's brilliance and a musical arranger.

 

[FIGJAM]

I'm interested to see what defines "filler" from Led Zep II to Houses of the Holy.

Physical has some tracks which are ho hum, and it could have comprised a frighteningly brilliant single album, although some obscure, yet brilliant, numbers would have been lost. LZI has a few covers as filler, but the standout Zep songs broke them into superstardom, and rightly so.

Houses is my favourite album. Some would consider it to be weak, as it doesn't contain many, if any, regular rock or pop tracks. for mine, that's part of its appeal and it is from a musicianship perspective, absolutely ****en awesome. LZIII might have some similar detractors, but like Houses, it's probably due to that person's desire more accessible music.

In closing, they aren't flawless. No band's catalogue is. But then there are **** all bands who's first six albums are considered essentials either.

They are a freak of nature and are the greatest rock and roll band of all time. Discuss!

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

I'm interested to see what defines "filler" from Led Zep II to Houses of the Holy.

Physical has some tracks which are ho hum, and it could have comprised a frighteningly brilliant single album, although some obscure, yet brilliant, numbers would have been lost. LZI has a few covers as filler, but the standout Zep songs broke them into superstardom, and rightly so.

Houses is my favourite album. Some would consider it to be weak, as it doesn't contain many, if any, regular rock or pop tracks. for mine, that's part of its appeal and it is from a musicianship perspective, absolutely ****en awesome. LZIII might have some similar detractors, but like Houses, it's probably due to that person's desire more accessible music.

In closing, they aren't flawless. No band's catalogue is. But then there are **** all bands who's first six albums are considered essentials either.

They are a freak of nature and are the greatest rock and roll band of all time. Discuss!

Ok i'll discuss Houses.

Houses captures the band in a rather strange, almost funny groove. It's said that it originated at a particularly boozy period in the band's life, when they were just having a good time and playing everything that came into their head (rather like the Stones' Black And Blue).

To me this album shows Jimmy Page could really go no further than heavy blues or dark acoustic ballads with any hint of success. Funk? Reggae? Doowop? Yeah, they're all here, but they really shouldn't be.

'No Quarter' is a gem, one of their best.

'Rain Song' is good but too long.

'Over the hills' is ok.

'The song remains the same' - Why does this sound like Yes? average lyrics. does this song actually have structure?

'The Crunge' - Plant ruins it with his obnoxious 'looping' vocalising.
'D'yer Maker' - funny stuff, duck out of water.

These two songs are weird for the fact that if this was Zep starting to diversify it's sound why was there no follow ups to these styles on other albums?

It's as if they just plonked em on this album to take up a space.

'Dancing Days' - blah, hurts my ears.

'The ocean' - just ok.

And why was House of the Holy relased 2 years later on the Physical Graffiti album? and not on the album that carries it's name?


So i ask you how can a band with average song writing abilities and a questionable vocalist be the greatest band of all time?

 

[Papa G]

Because Beck wasn't in it for the money.

He also realised he couldn't sing or write for shit so he never bothered to.

And yes every band has fillers, but compared to The Beatles, Stones, Who etc. who are up there as the best bands, LZ had far more filler on their albums.

LZ did hold on too long, from House of the Holy onwards they had begun to lose it.

As for the Beatles, sorry but don't even put Page and Plant in the same breath as Lennon/McArtney when it comes to song writing/arranging music.

That's why i keep saying LZ can't be the greatest band of all time because they wrote on the whole average lyrics, sung most of them over the top in an annoying manner and were only saved by Page's brilliance and a musical arranger.

Disagree - Physical Graffiti is an awesome album. Even Presence and In through the Outdoor have their moments, although the bad does outweigh the good.

If your talking average lyrics, I give you: Yellow Submarine, Hello Goodbye, Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da and I am the Walrus for starters.

If you think Plants vocals are annoying, you obviously just don't like Led Zeppelin.