Are we "soft"?

[Westy_Boy]

Firstly, I'm not making a statement ... it's a question which I want to get some opinions on.

I don't mean it in a 'gutless', 'weak' or 'lacking courage' sense, but just generally found wanting when teams take it up a level in hardness.

I know we've got Libba, Westy, Kritter and Grant giving 100% all of the time, but generally, across the park, are we "soft" ?

Personally, I just don't see that die hard mentality any more .... the desperation, the physical presense, get the ball at all costs frame of mind.

Maybe it's just all the under-developed kids we've got playing out there, and it'll fix itself up over the next few seasons as they mature ... but I have noticed something lacking, last year, and in the first few hitouts this pre season.

Or am I just imagining things?

 

[The Doctor]

Westy

I thought Port exposed us badly in the first half. When the heat was on they smashed through us. I don't think it was because our guys didn't try they were just out muscled by a physically stronger team.

Port showed us how far we need to improve if we are going to mix it with the big boys this year. Robbins will continue to improve and Lets not forget West and Libba were having their first runs so they will add some power in midfield but they are going to need support. The question in my mind is where will it come from?

We still don't have a kamikaze Mark West type to blast into the packs and barrel blokes out the way. Why didn't Wallace give Mitch Hahn more of a go in the middle? He looks the right size and has the right hardness. He just needs the experience and the Wiz cup would have been a good opportunity to try him out. Another I'd give a run to in the middle even just for a short bursts would be Kretiuk. Put him in their during "heat periods" or when the pressure is on. A lot of teams wouldn't like having him throwing his weight around and clearing a path for the runners.

I mentioned in the review thread that I thought the Port youngsters recruited the same time as ours seemed to be more advanced both physically and mentally for senior footy. I have always been critical of Wallace's handling of the young guys. Most are in their 3-4th seasons so they should be ready, no excuses. So perhaps our boys need a few more months or the season to be in peak physical shape and catch up.

 

[jim440]

Have to agree.

Port pished us aside way too easily. Murph, Guido, Gilbee, Alvey, Hargrave are all too light, still.

It's something we will have to put up with for at least another year as there are no alternatives.

Eagleton & Garlick could also be added to this list.

Robbins attacks the ball as hard as anyone we've got.

Even though Scooter and Lib are small of stature, they don't get easily pushed off the ball.

 

[dogboy23]

At this stage I cant be sure whether the Port effort was just an abberation,one of thos days where they just wern't interested.When you look at the Essendon game our attack on the ball particularly from the youngsters was top notch but then you get efforts like that.

Remembering we still have Grant,Croft and Penny to add some size to the line up I think we should be fairly well off in that department.Robbins has been earmarked for the midfield so we can expect to see he and Westy going straight at it all the time.Dimma and Libba do not lack intestinal fortitude nor do Kretta,Hahn,Croft,Picken,Grant,Harrison and Bartlett.There is plenty of hardness there IMO its just when they are all shut down we are made to look particularly bad because we do have alot of runners.As doc said though West is only going to get better.

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the possesions of West,Libba,Dimmatina and one or two others(unfortunately the afl site only has total possesions not quarter by quarter)to see whether the fight back was due to them getting more hard balls in the second half.I think its fairly obvious that these guys just need to get there hands on the ball and we are a hard side to beat.

Wait till the real stuff starts and then we will find out who is for real and whos not.BTW I still think we should have recruited Fletcher.

 

[Portia]

I should point out that these Port kids that look so big, with the exception of Thurstans, started pretty big.

Guerra was already a manchild before he was drafted, Carr was not the light framed kid like an Alvey, Murphy or Giansiracusa.

Teams eventually decide that they need to recruit for physicality (Essendon with the Johnsons a couple of years back), and maybe thats something the Dogs need to do. An example of this sort of player picked up this year would be Dan Elstone from Bendigo, drafted by Hawthorn - another pre-built player.

Michael Stevens is a good reverse example. Stevens started at the same time as Josh Carr, but still has trouble getting into the side because he tries to play in and under with an extremely light frame. He's got the talent, but can be easily pushed off the ball. Same training as the others, but not the same build. Sometimes you can't recruit for the best available player.

Sure, you can build light kids up, but you can't afford to have too many.

 

[dogboy23]

Originally posted by Porthos
I should point out that these Port kids that look so big, with the exception of Thurstans, started pretty big.

Good point Porthos I was going to point out the same thing.The younger Cornes is another example he came in fairly built and with a reputation for being straight at the ball.

I have a feeling Wallace is reluctant to play Hahn to much at Colonial with his emphasis on covering the ground.He must also remember however that with Colonial is fairly small and teams can easily shut down our young runners with enough physical pressure.It happened to Werribee last year in the big games against the more built teams on smaller grounds we got cramped and had no run and we couldnt get our hands on the pill.

 

[The Doctor]

I'm a big wrap for Elstone but the reality is the Dogs were never a realistic chance to get him in the draft with only 1 pick in the top 40. Birss is the one who should become that type of heavy traffic player. He needs another year to develop but looks the goods physically. I really like the look of him and hope he gets a decent run in the seniors this year.

We also need to get more from Dimma this season.

 

[jim440]

Originally posted by dogboy23

It would be interesting to see the breakdown of the possesions of West,Libba,Dimmatina and one or two others(unfortunately the afl site only has total possesions not quarter by quarter)to see whether the fight back was due to them getting more hard balls in the second half.I think its fairly obvious that these guys just need to get there hands on the ball and we are a hard side to beat.

Wait till the real stuff starts and then we will find out who is for real and whos not.BTW I still think we should have recruited Fletcher.

I think the improved 2nd half was more due to the guys who couldn't get near in the first half finally getting involved.

Giansiracusa, Gilbee, Smith, Bandy, Murphy and Darcy all improved on dreadful first halves.

West probably had 10 possesions in the first quarter anyway. Libba didn't get a lot of touches when he came on and Dimma was terrible for the whole game (not on his own there).

Once James went off, more pressure was placed on the Port defenders.

 

[Rocco Jones]

I don't think that we are soft because "we don't go in". I have to say we are not up to it physically. Someone like Eagleton could have all the heart in the world but he still wouldn't be much of a physical presence. However we do have a young list and as their bodies mature hopefully our list will have more of a physical presence. It's all part and parcel of having a young list.

 

[sigscotty]

It is exactly that we have all the under developed kids out there.

They have effectively replaced in the last few years, Cameron, Curly, Southern, Powell, Montgomery, Kolynuik, Wynd, Romero.

Of these guys, Curly, Powell, Southern, Monty and Romero came to us physically ready to mix it up physically. As did Dimma.

As opposed to the current batch who have come to us as kids. I believe it has been that long (if ever) that we have seen a large batch of youngsters come up at once that we are just not used to the effect that has on our side in the toughness area.

Guys like Brown and West were no different as youngsters to the current crop, but they were able to develop without hurting the side because they made up such a smaller percentage of the team.

So basically we just have to sit it out until the likes of Guido can back up their attitude (see him having a go at Primus?) with some genuine physical presence.

The drafting of some bigger type midfielders last year should also help.

 

[K9-54]

Well, we aint "hard". But I'm not sure how far we are away from where we need to be. I suspect we only need one or two hard runners and everyone walks a bit taller, runs a bit straighter, and hits a bit harder.

 

[PC28]

I do it all the time, and i'll do it again...

There teams of 97 & 98. We didn't have an overwhelming amount of "tough" balls and all type players, but geez, didn't we put the Stevie Nicks up some teams.

We had a great balance in those years. A team that could run like anything, but with the "wog squad" and those type of reputations, we could mix it...

Thats what i think we need.

We have enough runners, we have a few talls, and a focal forward in James, ie someone who wont kick 100 goals (sorry Rocco) but can add 50odd, what we need now is to find the toughness again.

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

I don't think we are soft at all. I think teams know there in for a tough game when they play us. We might not be as skilled as a couple of years ago, but we are still a hard team

 

[LastCall]

I dont think we are a soft team however, we can be pushed around. A lot of the younger players, as gifted as they are, are not physically ready to handle or dish out the rough stuff.
By that I mean bumps and shepherds etc.
It looks great on paper to have players that are athletically gifted
and you do need a certain amount of run but the reality is that this is a contact sport that requires you to take and dish out bumps or outbody someone for a mark etc.
I wont go into some of our selections come draft time however,
I have always believed you need a balance of younger and older players, I know many who prefer the club to player the younger
players exclusively, but we should always look at players who can make the transistion quickly. Young talls might be the exception.

 

[Westy_Boy]

Originally posted by The_Flying_Egg
I think teams know there in for a tough game when they play us. We might not be as skilled as a couple of years ago, but we are still a hard team

I see it as being directly opposite. In the past we've had the culture of not having the talent to match the best teams in the comp, but the opposition were always in for a prick of a day to get the points.

Now, although the talent across the field seems to have improved (we're replacing blokes with poor disposal like Romero with faster and better skilled players like Eagleton etc), it seems that we get smashed without even putting up a fight more often than not.

Last year's matches against Essendon, Port, Carlton and Collingwood are examples ... 5,6,7 and in the Collingwood match, 10 goal runs in less than a quarter... I don't know what it comes down to. Intensity, accountability and hardness? They seem to fly out the window ... and then, when we get a sniff of a fight back/run-on ourselves, those facets of our game inexplicably lift out of sight.

I reckon we have the ability to be right up there in hardness with the current team (check out last year's Adelaide match when Terry had specifically put the onus on hardness)... but why do we look soft in so many of these other matches?

IMHO, it's more than just having a few immature bodies out there ... maybe it's psychological? Mentally soft when things aren't going our way? Maybe we're frontrunners? I don't like labelling my team like that, but if indeed there is a problem, we have to spot it before fixing it.

Whatever it is, I hope we don't see us smashed that easily, that often, again this year.

 

[stefoid]

We are soft. But mostly its an attitude thing. We have too many receivers to hard ball getters ratio in the team.

Eagleton is the same weight, and one cm shorter than Scott West. Westy gets the hard ball, or recieves, as the situation demands. Eagleton dances around the pack like a little pixie while the opposition scoots off with the ball.

We just need more players around the ground who are prepared to do the hard work when they have to, instead of just wanting to be on the end of it 100% of the time.

Smith and Brown are the prime offenders from the list of those who should know better. I dont even rate eagleton. Guido needs to work on hardness too.

Optimisticly, from what I have seen, Murph and Robbo can go in hard. If these guys get regular onball time, we can kiss the likes of Eagleton goodbye.

 

[Bulldog1954]

Originally posted by stefoid

Smith and Brown are the prime offenders from the list of those who should know better.

I agree with much what you said, but not with Smith and Johnson. They are runners primarily, but IMO when the tough stuff needs to be done neither of these back away, particularly Johnson.

 

[stefoid]

Actually it was Smith and brown. Cant fault Johnos endevour.

Smith looks to be on the end of it too much, and Brown, well maybe he just hasn't learned how to apply his smaller frame in such a way as he doesnt get pushed off the ball yet. He needs a lesson from Westy who will throw himself hard at an opponent as he goes for the ball, knowing that opponent's superior size will push him back onto the ball when they collide -- that sort of thing.

 

[dogboy23]

IMO there is no need for Browny to go anywhere near a hard ball get he is of more use using his disposal.I disagree that he is soft to he has a real bit of mongrel in him.If you watched dermie does on him last season he highlighted how good he is at pushing off his opponent in a pack and recieving the ball.He is very strong through his hips and that is one of his strengths.IMO the only things he needs to work on are his fitness and his life outside of footy.