List Mgmt. The Missing Middle Tier - Why we are headed for a rebuild

[Old Puppy]

The issue in my mind is the poor quality of our Footy Department. I reckon they are in the bottom 4 in the league. Bevo and Grant struggle to retain or recruit quality people. Not only is our game plan hopeless but our ability to identify (outside our first-round selections which have been good) and develop talent is woeful.

It's far too matey between the coach, the CEO, and the head of the footy department. We need a total footy department rebuild (a la St Kilda, or Richmond back in 2016).

Really hope that if KWW gets Gil's job our new Pres can see what most of us can see.

You are 100% correct and nothing will change until Grant goes and that’s not happening so we will keep getting the same results

 

[stefoid]

Its weird because this seasons playing 20 or so players is probably the best balanced and across the park talented Ive seen at the dogs in some time. But the talent after that is drops off questionably, and the age profile of the midfield is scary.

One thing that works in our favour is that A grade mids are easier to find, tend to be best available, and tend to develop quickly. Also trading for an established top mid at this point wouldnt be a stupid thing to do.

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

Carlton are an interesting case for us to examine. They drafted well and have 2 established, youngish KPFs and one KPD of the same ilk. Looks like they might have a good young ruck as well. They’ve got a top 5 player in the comp in Cripps, and another coming through in Walsh. This could be where we are in a couple of years when JUH and Darcy are playing consistently alongside Naughton and English (Busslinger might be there too), with Bont obviously and maybe Smith developing into a better player.

That’s the core of a good team, but they’ve chucked a lot of salary cap at other players who might not be worth it (Williams, McGovern, Cerra) and have built a slowish midfield with Kennedy and Hewett alongside Cripps. The game is moving towards pace, either genuine leg speed or fast ball movement, but they don’t look like they’re positioned for that.

My guess is their floor is fairly high, like ours is, but their ceiling is fairly low, again like us. Faster, better-coached teams will get a hold of them in September and they’ll hover around the 6-11 ladder position until something changes.

But a least they actually recognise this.

They drafted and are playing Cowan and Hollands and got Acres.

We are playing mediocre 28-31 year olds.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Good post DW. I think losing Dalyrmple and his uncanny knack of finding diamonds in the rough has hurt us the most.

Outside our first round picks, and you would be very unlucky to pick a dud in the first round, no one stands out. Mediocre players, who you really hope will come on, but really, Garcia, Vandemeer, Archie, Raak, Roark Smith, the list goes on, but can you trust them to do their role.

The other issue is players with constant soft tissue injuries like Vandemeer, they can’t get a consistent run at games.

 

[dogwatch]

... I think losing Dalyrmple and his uncanny knack of finding diamonds in the rough has hurt us the most.

...

Yes and it wasn't only the loss of Dalrymple. It was the ongoing dynamic between the list management team and the coaching staff that (reportedly) led to his departure. There's no reason to believe that unfortunate dynamic has changed, although I concede some of this is assumption and not verified fact.

If Milesi and Power are to strengthen this list in the manner we think is necessary they must certainly listen and consult with the coaches but ultimately they need to be able to do it with minimal direct interference.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

I guess if we are smart, we look at the players Dalrymple has recruited for Sydney that can’t get games, I mean that Roberts went alright…

 

[bresker]

I thought to myself 'I wonder if the other contenders have a poor bottom 6 like ours? Do they have Robbie McComb's running around for them?'

Most opposition fans would say 'Robbie who?' if you asked them to rate McComb.

So I went through the team lists from Sydney. Geelong , Melbourne etc on the AFL app and looked at their bottom few players based on the AF rating.

I was expecting to find a few 'Robbie who?' s in there , but apart from a few first year players I'd heard of nearly all their weaker players.

I'd always assumed our bottom 6-8 wasn't that bad, as we have a negative bias from watching them every week & can't adequately compare them to our rivals. Now I do think we've got a VFL bottom end. And we don't have many injuries.

We're being dragged along by exceptional performances from a few , good but patchy performances from most, and dragging some other drab footsoldiers who may be hindering more than helping in our weekly brutal slogfest.

 

[Anja_Nees]

A good thread and it’s an interesting conundrum.

I think people like Cornes bang on about us not getting the best out of a great list because of 2021, but the reality was that was a lot of things going right at the same time.

It included, without being exhaustive, peak Bont, Dunkley, Macrae, Libba together, plus lesser lights Keath, Smith, Bruce, Dale and Daniel being in more or less career best form, and English forming a pretty good duo with Martin for a patch. I don’t think the list is that great now and it needs renovation.

I’ve never liked the idea of picking up fringe players. They usually have a dead cat bounce (if that) then return to where they were. Lloyd, Hannan, and others have looked pretty good early but don’t take you forward.

We now have a raft of 27+ y.o. players not clearly in the best 22 that we will need to exit in an orderly way so we don’t lost too much depth. I’ve waxed lyrical about this in other threads, but I’d have at least Hannan, Roarke, O’Brien, McComb, McLean and one or two others in the gun, with Keath, Bruce and Duryea tentative over the next 18 months.

It’s not doom and gloom. Whereas the Hawks traded almost all of their first rounders for a decade, we’ve kept ours and have 6-7 young players with a very high ceiling, and players like Bont, Dale and Macrae have a fair bit left in them. I think we can stay competitive while turning over the list, but we need to axe the list cloggers and draft well to replace them.

 

[bobs head soup]

I'm not sure we can say we are heading for a rebuild. Given we turned over 8 players last year, have to say it's already started.

 

[Anja_Nees]

I'm not sure we can say we are heading for a rebuild. Given we turned over 8 players last year, have to say it's already started.

That’s probably true. Good clubs (ie Geelong and Sydney) find a way to stay competitive while turning the side over. I’m sure that’s what we want to do, but I think we can expect another heavy turnover this year, hopefully jettisoning the list cloggers.

Dom Milesi hasn’t had much of a chance to show us what he’s got given the JUH and Darcy scenarios. He’ll likely have a fair few sub 30 picks this year. It’s a good opportunity to supplement the English, Naughton, Smith etc bracket.

 

[Mofra]

I guess if we are smart, we look at the players Dalrymple has recruited for Sydney that can’t get games, I mean that Roberts went alright

Shane Biggs went even better (never forget)

 

[LondonBulldog]

I would argue that with some culls to "older" and the "not good enough" players this year and some major role changes or moving on of some "recognised" players with 2 first round picks we can have a mini rebuild. A bit like when Cooney and Griffen left. Best thing that ever happened to the club as Bont and MaCrae stepped right up. We need more runners in the middle though. Libba needs to be middle/forward next year. Not sure about MaCrae but his time is up for 100% in the middle. The game waits for no-one. Butters, Rozee and Horne Francis won that game when it counted. All young and fresh onballers. Thats what we need to draft next year.

 

[Dazb86]

It's on Bedendo, Khamis, Cleary, West, A.Jones and McNeil to step up and become regulars on merit.

Out of that list West, Khamis and McNeil have a few runs on the board at AFL level. All 3 have played games and impacted. They probably should be favoured over guys like McComb and Hannan who are older and their form is still flakey.

 

[geoffjennings79]

I would argue that with some culls to "older" and the "not good enough" players this year and some major role changes or moving on of some "recognised" players with 2 first round picks we can have a mini rebuild. A bit like when Cooney and Griffen left. Best thing that ever happened to the club as Bont and MaCrae stepped right up. We need more runners in the middle though. Libba needs to be middle/forward next year. Not sure about MaCrae but his time is up for 100% in the middle. The game waits for no-one. Butters, Rozee and Horne Francis won that game when it counted. All young and fresh onballers. Thats what we need to draft next year.

As was posted earlier, at the end of 2014 when Cooney and Griffen left, we turned over 14 players.
Hardly a mini rebuild!

 

[Libba39]

I'm not sure we can say we are heading for a rebuild. Given we turned over 8 players last year, have to say it's already started.

Agree! Definitely a transition or refresh at least.

Bont is now what 27/28 we need our next gen a-grade mid to be drafted this November because if we're waiting for West or Garcia to come through we'll be waiting for lonnngggg time.

 

[Bald]

We still haven’t replaced Morris, Picken, Matthew Boyd, and arguably Dickson.

Morris and Picken I'd agree. Matthew Boyd was a fantastic midfielder that was moved down back at the end of his career, the first time we saw Adam Treloar down back last year the entire board had a melt down.

 

[maddog37]

Morris and Picken I'd agree. Matthew Boyd was a fantastic midfielder that was moved down back at the end of his career, the first time we saw Adam Treloar down back last year the entire board had a melt down.

Treloar and Boyd. Apples and oranges.

 

[Bald]

Treloar and Boyd. Apples and oranges.

I realise that, the point I’m making is if we moved a prominent midfielder down back we’d lose our minds about how much of an idiot Bevo is.

 

[mattwa]

From what I've seen West and Garcia will never be more than C+ players maybe Westy has a higher ceiling to a B which all lists have. We have the developing talls of top top end talent in Darcy, Marra, Buss, Timmy, Naughts. No side in the comp had that level of developing talls.

Mids are easier to draft/find so whilst it looks a little light on atm 3 top end mids this year to that list and I feel it will look far more balanced

 

[BulldogMuscle]

From what I've seen West and Garcia will never be more than C+ players maybe Westy has a higher ceiling to a B which all lists have. We have the developing talls of top top end talent in Darcy, Marra, Buss, Timmy, Naughts. No side in the comp had that level of developing talls.

Mids are easier to draft/find so whilst it looks a little light on atm 3 top end mids this year to that list and I feel it will look far more balanced

Everybody shitting on West/Garcia when neither have been given a proper run in their actual positions.
Neither of them are small forwards, wingers, or defenders, they are mids, pure and simple, but as said earlier in this thread, neither have been given any AFL time (short of West attending something like 3 CBA's) because we constantly rely on the old group to 'get it done'.

 

[TMoney22]

Bailey Smith

6

Bailey Smith

Age

23

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

is the only mid we have who may become consistently elite quickly. Yet he's hardly played in the middle at all this year. Half forward pushing up is a waste of development. He doesnt even play wing with Williams, Hannan, Scott more preferred lol. We need to accept his flaws and let him learn. Give him plenty of rotations as a mid and then rest him forward/wing.

His midfield development should be a priority, then West.

 

[St 07]

I thought McComb, Scott and O'brien were mid 20's at most. I like them as pick-ups but that is a little bit depressing.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Morris and Picken I'd agree. Matthew Boyd was a fantastic midfielder that was moved down back at the end of his career, the first time we saw Adam Treloar down back last year the entire board had a melt down.

Boyd became an AA half back as a result of that change which was a genius one. Treloar isn’t a good fit.

 

[Bald]

Boyd became an AA half back as a result of that change which was a genius one. Treloar isn’t a good fit.

It was genius in hindsight for sure. The point I’m making is that when ever anything like this is tried these days there’s a collective groan that Bevo is trying things.

 

[dogwatch]

Bailey Smith is the only mid we have who may become consistently elite quickly. Yet he's hardly played in the middle at all this year. Half forward pushing up is a waste of development. He doesnt even play wing with Williams, Hannan, Scott more preferred lol. We need to accept his flaws and let him learn. Give him plenty of rotations as a mid and then rest him forward/wing.

His midfield development should be a priority, then West.

I think he also needs some one on one coaching regarding his role and disposal. And maybe his mental approach. No idea who or how that’s done, but he has the attributes to be a top midfielder and now more than ever in his career we need to unlock that.