List Mgmt. The Missing Middle Tier - Why we are headed for a rebuild

Remove this Banner Ad

I'm very convinced that West has all the tools to be far better than a C+ player, I'd go as far as to say he could be an A grader given the right opportunity.

People are saying that people only feel this way because of his Dad, which I think is simply not true. He is faster than the average inside midfielder, decent by foot, great by hand, as hard as they come, great recovery speed getting up the ground, better vision than most of our team. He definitely does have a few issues, seems selfish as times and defensive running being the big ones.

He just needs a proper crack at it.
 
We need to spend some 2nd / 3rd rounders on some elite runners IMO. Melbourne have these half forwards / wings who are absolute jets (Spargo, Sparrow, Chandler). They work harder than any other players out there to create space and support defensively. They’re fast, have a great goal nous and they know how to use their limited possessions to set up attacking plays and goals.

Our small / half forwards (apart from Weightman) would be the shitest in the league. We need to inject some athletic hard working players into our mix. That’s the way the game is going. Look at Melbourne, Pies. Even Essendon have built a game plan around pace, hard running and outnumbering.

Also, what has happened to Baz Smith? 😭

Remember when he kicked his first goal against the pies? Most players would be so happy but Baz was just keen to pump up the boys and looked angry. Remember that game against the blues where he was giving it Cripps and Walsh at the stoppage then kicking an awesome goals from 50 before he gave it to them again. Remember that port game in the wet in 2019 where he had 12 tackles or something? He’s lost his edge and I think is behind on his development trajectory.
 
geoffjennings79 said:
As was posted earlier, at the end of 2014 when Cooney and Griffen left, we turned over 14 players.
Hardly a mini rebuild!
Click to expand...
We made finals the next year, so even though we turned players over (for me it wasn't a big rebuild, that happened earlier, the McCartney years), we had a good core of older players and some great young guns who were ready to take the roles of Griffen, Cooney and others.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Highlander said:
I'm very convinced that West has all the tools to be far better than a C+ player, I'd go as far as to say he could be an A grader given the right opportunity.

People are saying that people only feel this way because of his Dad, which I think is simply not true. He is faster than the average inside midfielder, decent by foot, great by hand, as hard as they come, great recovery speed getting up the ground, better vision than most of our team. He definitely does have a few issues, seems selfish as times and defensive running being the big ones.

He just needs a proper crack at it.
Click to expand...
His attack on the ball & body is elite. He just needs to blunt some of his deficiencies - some of the mistakes in games are from wanting it 'too much' - same with Garcia. Both have an innate competitiveness that we lack as a team sometimes.

I'd seriously consider him as a tagger some weeks.
 
Whoyagot said:
We need to spend some 2nd / 3rd rounders on some elite runners IMO. Melbourne have these half forwards / wings who are absolute jets (Spargo, Sparrow, Chandler). They work harder than any other players out there to create space and support defensively. They’re fast, have a great goal nous and they know how to use their limited possessions to set up attacking plays and goals.
Click to expand...
Last week we had three wingman rotating through the role (Williams / Scott / Baker) for an output of 33 touches and a goal - to me that's the output we want from two wingmen.
It's hard to tell on TV how they're collectively doing on the defensive running side of the game, but against some teams that's effectively playing on running player down.

We targeted Ollie Hollands with our first rounder last year for a reason. A gun wingman is a desperate need for us.
 
Is it really all that bad? I don't think so
We made a bloody grand final less than two years ago, looking at the team who played the grand final who's left/retired since then?

A Graders:
Josh Dunkley

B Graders:
Easton Wood
Lachie Hunter

Everybody else:
Zaine Cordy
Josh Schache
Stefan Martin

The core of a grand-final attending side is still there, still playing, two more years experience, yes we need a top up in a few positions, yes we need players like Busslinger to come on quickly to replace Easton Wood's intercepting role, we need a good hard nose-two way running defensive mid to replace Dunkley, and a solid solid winger, but honestly I don't think we need to head into rebuild territory. I think we have the good core of a list there (Albeit aging), I still 100% believe that it's coaching, system and selection that is our biggest problem right now.

The list is not perfect by any means but it isn't as bad as what some are making it out to be.
 
BulldogMuscle said:
Everybody shitting on West/Garcia when neither have been given a proper run in their actual positions.
Neither of them are small forwards, wingers, or defenders, they are mids, pure and simple, but as said earlier in this thread, neither have been given any AFL time (short of West attending something like 3 CBA's) because we constantly rely on the old group to 'get it done'.
Click to expand...
I'm not shitting on them at all. I want them in the team. To me an A grader is a Bont, prime Macrae and a Dawson from Adelaide. Big body and skillful who has a unique point of difference.

I agree West should get mid time too but he will never be an A grader and there is nothing wrong with that. He will be a solid B/B+ which is a great asset for the team IF it all clicks
 
mattwa said:
I'm not shitting on them at all. I want them in the team. To me an A grader is a Bont, prime Macrae and a Dawson from Adelaide. Big body and skillful who has a unique point of difference.

I agree West should get mid time too but he will never be an A grader and there is nothing wrong with that. He will be a solid B/B+ which is a great asset for the team IF it all clicks
Click to expand...

I agree. West could potentially be a solid player, but not an A-grader by a long shot. Currently the deficiencies are too many, and some of these probably aren't going to improve much from this point on:

  • average-poor kick
  • poor handball
  • not fast or elite runner
  • average decision maker

He does have some positives, these being his aggression, ball-winning, tackling and marking ability, but there is a LOT which needs to come together before he makes any sort of regular afl player.
 
Libba39 said:
I agree. West could potentially be a solid player, but not an A-grader by a long shot. Currently the deficiencies are too many, and some of these probably aren't going to improve much from this point on:

  • average-poor kick
  • poor handball
  • not fast or elite runner
  • average decision maker

He does have some positives, these being his aggression, ball-winning, tackling and marking ability, but there is a LOT which needs to come together before he makes any sort of regular afl player.
Click to expand...

West is capable of being great by hand. Always been one of his strengths.
 
Libba39 said:
I agree. West could potentially be a solid player, but not an A-grader by a long shot. Currently the deficiencies are too many, and some of these probably aren't going to improve much from this point on:

  • average-poor kick
  • poor handball
  • not fast or elite runner
  • average decision maker

He does have some positives, these being his aggression, ball-winning, tackling and marking ability, but there is a LOT which needs to come together before he makes any sort of regular afl player.
Click to expand...
West actually has a very good athletic profile, elite agility (as in very very top % of all players coming through the u18 system), great leap and whilst he’s short and stocky and doesn’t have great top speed he definitely has a fast first few step burst

These are attributes that are perfectly suited to centre square football, there’s no reason he can’t be our Viney/Adams/Serong/Rowell etc he’s easily on the same level as these guys skillswise. He’s definitely not a ‘poor’ handball either, he’s elite by hand. I agree he has B grade ceiling but that’s fine.

But we’re all shocked that he has quiet games as a small forward 🙄
 
BulldogMuscle said:
Everybody shitting on West/Garcia when neither have been given a proper run in their actual positions.
Neither of them are small forwards, wingers, or defenders, they are mids, pure and simple, but as said earlier in this thread, neither have been given any AFL time (short of West attending something like 3 CBA's) because we constantly rely on the old group to 'get it done'.
Click to expand...
Couldn't agree with this post more.
Then on top of that we recruit inside mids from Footscray and do the same with them.
 
I'd happily give West a run on the ball. I've seen the burst from traffic and he has that ability to get in and out of trouble like a butters did on the weekend. It's what we are lacking atm. I'd persevere with Arty and Cody forward and have West and Garcia as the maniacs in the middle causing pressure at the source.
 
In regards to the opening post.
I reckon all of :
Naughton
Weightman
Bont
Macrae
Treloar
Dunkley
Smith
English
Daniel
B.Dale
Richards
Would have walked into Geelong's team last year.

Swap out Dunkley for L.Jones and add Lobb this year and the players above walk into Essendon, St Kilda, Pies, Blues and Sydney.

Plus we're hoping/expecting JUH, Darcy and Buss to become A grade players.

Yes some of our bottom end are no good. But really it's just McComb, Hannan and McNeil( at this stage of his career).
Scott and O’Brien should only be playing if we have injuries.

Many AFL coaches or coaches in waiting would love a list like ours.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

doggies ftw said:
West actually has a very good athletic profile, elite agility (as in very very top % of all players coming through the u18 system), great leap and whilst he’s short and stocky and doesn’t have great top speed he definitely has a fast first few step burst

These are attributes that are perfectly suited to centre square football, there’s no reason he can’t be our Viney/Adams/Serong/Rowell etc he’s easily on the same level as these guys skillswise. He’s definitely not a ‘poor’ handball either, he’s elite by hand. I agree he has B grade ceiling but that’s fine.

But we’re all shocked that he has quiet games as a small forward 🙄
Click to expand...

Some good points but I wholeheartedly disagree about his handball. I've seen him completely duff a few, unlike his old man who was up there with Greg Williams.
 
If you had to pick two midfielders that currently take spots, and replace them with West and Garcia, who would you move and where would you move them? Can any of our current midfielders fill the role of Matthew Boyd down back?

I can’t imagine we’re moving Bontempelli anywhere but forward and I’m not sure there’s space for him there if the intention is to give younger players a crack, could Liberatore play as a forward?

Do we look to trade one of Libba, Treloar or Macrae. If we’re serious about seeing what the likes of Garcia, West etc have to offer, these are the things that need to be considered.
 
ThePhreshOne said:
If you had to pick two midfielders that currently take spots, and replace them with West and Garcia, who would you move and where would you move them? Can any of our current midfielders fill the role of Matthew Boyd down back?

I can’t imagine we’re moving Bontempelli anywhere but forward and I’m not sure there’s space for him there if the intention is to give younger players a crack, could Liberatore play as a forward?

Do we look to trade one of Libba, Treloar or Macrae. If we’re serious about seeing what the likes of Garcia, West etc have to offer, these are the things that need to be considered.
Click to expand...
On form you’d take the CBAs from Macrae and Smith, but we’d also be taking a step backwards in the short term by doing that. Whether it’s worth it is anyone’s guess, and Smith is worth persevering with given his age and upside.

I’d love to see Macrae back at his best. His hands in congestion were better than any, and his delivery inside 50 was elite. These days, he’s just a slow, defensively poor, non damaging accumulator.

No way should we trade Libba. Heart and soul of the club
 
Libba39 said:
Some good points but I wholeheartedly disagree about his handball. I've seen him completely duff a few, unlike his old man who was up there with Greg Williams.
Click to expand...
Admittedly he probably hasn’t shown it at AFL level, I agree it hasn’t been great to this point from what he’s shown but more was meaning what he’s capable of.

I think a lot of it comes down to his confidence at the level, even after a pretty decent patch of form last year he was only ever 1 maybe 2 quiet games away from being dropped and it’s why he’s always trying to do to much and overplay every possession.

I think if we backed him in for a run in the middle wed see him settle and play to his natural ability which is yeah toe the line with aggression, but great vision and finding great options by hand consistently. Not trying to do too much every time he goes near the ball.

Personally I rate a young player that tries to do too much over the opposite, Macrae & Williams were good examples of this when they first started - always tried to take on the tackler and almost always got caught, but they both learnt from it and become really good in traffic (although Bailey has regressed)
 
My eye test regarding West is that every time he gets dropped I fully understand the reasons for it. I don't believe he has been hardly done by by the match committee at all. He must now 'knock the door down' with successive impressive performances at VFL level before he gets his next chance.
 
ThePhreshOne said:
If you had to pick two midfielders that currently take spots, and replace them with West and Garcia, who would you move and where would you move them? Can any of our current midfielders fill the role of Matthew Boyd down back?

I can’t imagine we’re moving Bontempelli anywhere but forward and I’m not sure there’s space for him there if the intention is to give younger players a crack, could Liberatore play as a forward?

Do we look to trade one of Libba, Treloar or Macrae. If we’re serious about seeing what the likes of Garcia, West etc have to offer, these are the things that need to be considered.
Click to expand...
I don’t think you need to worry about trading players or move them to other positions etc, we’re not going to give West/Garcia 20 CBAs It’s just about including them in the rotations.

We used to run a heap of players through there and it was a major strength - we’re now down to 4 mids per game pretty much, Port had 6 on the weekend. Melb had 7 all see over 3 CBs. Pies = 7, Geelong = 7, Lions = 7.

I’m not sure why we’ve gone the opposite route and are so stale and reluctant to try other players in there, it’s more a timing thing really - when our midfield is on top Bont, Macrae and Libba are lethal but the issue is we don’t have a plan B.

When Melbourne had a run on out of the middle what is the harm in throwing West in to hit the contest and try to force some repeat stoppages, it’s what he does best and he couldn’t do any worse. But we just stick to the same approach hoping it changes

We could easily get him in the rotation for 10 CBs pg without disrupting the other midfielders
 
doggies ftw said:
I don’t think you need to worry about trading players or move them to other positions etc, we’re not going to give West/Garcia 20 CBAs It’s just about including them in the rotations.

We used to run a heap of players through there and it was a major strength - we’re now down to 4 mids per game pretty much, Port had 6 on the weekend. Melb had 7 all see over 3 CBs. Pies = 7, Geelong = 7, Lions = 7.

I’m not sure why we’ve gone the opposite route and are so stale and reluctant to try other players in there, it’s more a timing thing really - when our midfield is on top Bont, Macrae and Libba are lethal but the issue is we don’t have a plan B.

When Melbourne had a run on out of the middle what is the harm in throwing West in to hit the contest and try to force some repeat stoppages, it’s what he does best and he couldn’t do any worse. But we just stick to the same approach hoping it changes

We could easily get him in the rotation for 10 CBs pg without disrupting the other midfielders
Click to expand...
I do agree with this. But the trouble is you need to find another position for the players to play in whilst they’re not playing in the middle.
 
ThePhreshOne said:
I do agree with this. But the trouble is you need to find another position for the players to play in whilst they’re not playing in the middle.
Click to expand...
Not for any significant time of game though it’s really not changing things that much. Just means each of our main 5 see 1-2 more CBAs from a different position or the bench so it’s pretty insignificant. Might mean our captains not sitting on the bench for 7 mins in the last qtr like the weekend too!

For example on the weekend when they were getting on top in the middle in the last qtr and Bonts influence was down in the middle, I would have loved to see us swing him to the backline to strengthen us down there with a cool head and roll West into the guts to hit bodies the way they were using SPP etc

Macrae has already started to play off the HFF a little more which I like because it allows him to impact as an extra rather than being caught out defensively in a 3v3 CB. Baz & Treloar can be effective running in off all 4 sides of the centre square. Libba can be a nuisance in the forward pocket when we’re dominating fwd 50 possession.

Plenty of options and Bev used to be creative with this stuff but he’s gone the other way too much and is now outright stale with this rotations. Not sure why he’s okay with swinging KPP from FF to FB to Wing all within 1 qtr and from game to game but is so reluctant to move midfielders anywhere they may be able to impact ingame

These aren’t significant changes, they’re just allowing some extra rotations for a few different faces in the guts without disrupting the norm. West and Cody would be two great ones to start to role through there 5-10 times a game
 
DognBones said:
My eye test regarding West is that every time he gets dropped I fully understand the reasons for it. I don't believe he has been hardly done by by the match committee at all. He must now 'knock the door down' with successive impressive performances at VFL level before he gets his next chance.
Click to expand...

What's your eye test on McComb and Hannan? West hasn't been given a fair run given his upside IMO
 
Feels like we are way too reliant on Bont (and English) in the middle atm. Bailey Smith playing to his potential the obvious quick fix. Left field would be giving Williams and/or Richards a chance in the middle. Both have a great age and athletic profile.
 
Man that's a lot of C graders on that list.

It confirms what I said after Saturday nights game. We've greatly overrated our list and its being carried by 10 or so players.

When these guys aren't firing as cohesive unit we're liable to be beaten by any side in the competition. When they fire we're competitive but just not good enough to compete at the top end of the competition. A new coach with fresh ideas (they'd be welcome from the incumbent) may change this but I doubt that he or she could get any more out of a list that is as out of balance as the one we currently posses.

The bones of a completive side will be there for the foreseeable future, but a lot of meat needs to be stripped off and discarded. Until we do, we're going to be bumping along as a middle table side. Just inside or outside of the eight. You know, like most of the clubs recent history.

Priorites for mine. Athletic mids. Natural small forwards. A KPB.

I dont care if they come about through trades or the draft.
 
Another way of looking at this list (and excuse me if I reproduce it here for convenience) is that if we can get all or most of those players to their ceiling then we will actually have a VERY competitive list. Now that's a very big if but it shows that it's not all doom and gloom. The key is to unlock that ceiling potential.

1681820734324.png

I know not everybody will agree with my ratings but if you bear with them for a few moments you can quickly see that there are 12 with a potential A grading and 12 with a potential B grading. Let's put them into a line-up and see what that would look like. For this exercise to work you have to visualise these players playing right up to their perceived potential, not just what we've been seeing in past seasons or in the first five rounds. Those with A-ceilings have been bolded.

B: Cleary - Jones L - Williams
HB: Dale - Darcy - Richards
C: Baker - Bontempelli - Bedendo
HF: Smith B - Ugle-Hagan - Treloar
F: Weightman - Naughton - West

R: English - Liberatore - Macrae

Int: Daniel, Lobb, Khamis, Garcia

23rd: Jones A

A/B players not selected above: Johannisen


No doubt you will have twigged that there's a further important dimension that has to be considered and that is age/development trajectory. For several reasons we won't see all 24 of these players at their ceiling at any one time.

The most obvious reason is that a good number of them will probably never even reach that ceiling. It would be fantasyland for that to happen but it's a good starting point because you can then assess which ones are least likely to make it and start looking at recruitment strategies to cover for them.

Another is the age profile. Libba may be an A right now but he's about to turn 31. Realistically he'll be in decline from here on (assuming his knees continue to hold out). Liam Jones is going well but he's already 32. A couple more years as a B would be a great return but we should not be surprised if he slips a bit over that period. Treloar, JJ and Lobb are also on the wrong side of 30.

Meanwhile there are a few C graders we hope will become A or B graders but they are young and it won't happen overnight for most of them. Maybe a few will get there next year if we are lucky. In addition, who knows how the injury gods or free agent shenanigans will affect some of our players in their prime years?

It means that while some are rising there are others declining so it's unlikely they will all be at their peak at the same time.

Offsetting the losses of course are those new to the list (shown in grey). We can expect Busslinger to at least be a B. Hopefully one of the others might crack that level too. There is also the draft/trade pipeline - we should hope to recruit at least one eventual A grader each year.

So who are the key players for this dream to become a reality? I'm talking about current B/C graders who could rise. Let me list the ones I see as crucial:
  • Jack Macrae - was a damaging player a few years ago but is a bland accumulator now. Let's hope it's not because he's lost pace and imagination but that it's because he's carrying an injury (suspected ribs?) which has him operating at 80% of his potential. If so he could yet return to being an A. He's still only 28 after all so another 3-4 years of good footy is not an unreasonable expectation.
  • Caleb Daniel - he's already a high B in my book so it wouldn't take much for him to return to AA form. The conundrum is where to play him to best effect. Maybe Bevo has got it right this year (Caleb's been pretty good) but maybe there's another way to play him that will get even more out of him?
  • Sam Darcy and Jamarra Ugle-Hagan - I'm expecting both of these will become bona fide stars of the comp with the normal trajectory of physical development and experience. It's more a question of when. I'm hoping 2024 but it could be 2025. Darcy's role is also an issue. I have slotted him in as a defender but he could also be a ruck/forward, making a powerful combination with English. We'd probably then want Busslinger to come on quickly.
  • Dominic Bedendo - his name was being whispered a lot in the pre-season so it's been disappointing to see him sidelined for so long. Half of 2023 is looking like a write-off already. He definitely has some skills and flair but we need to see it all come together consistently. If he does develop as some are expecting he would be one of those Dalrymple-style late picks that becomes a star - the sort of thing we have been hoping to see from Milesi.
  • Rhylee West - the subject of much discussion here lately. Definitely has some attributes that we like. He has shown them already - albeit briefly - at senior level. He's nearly 23 so he needs to put it all together soon. Much debate over whether we are giving him sufficient opportunity in the right role (and what that role should really be).
  • Buku Khamis - my gut feeling is we won't see the best of Buku for another couple of years. The key will be (a) to keep him happy and on our list, and (b) to put the development effort into him, which may mean picking one role for him and sticking to it, not treating him as a spare parts man.
  • Bailey Williams - here we have the opposite problem, being a player who may have passed his peak. At his peak we was briefly a B grader but he is currently at C level in my view. If we can get Williams back to a B that would be great because he might have a good 5 seasons left. I'm just not sure how we do that. He has not been inspiring in defence. Is there a midfield or wing role that he can excel in?
So if even two thirds of those came true we'd be pretty well placed. I'd then be happy to pad out the last few spots in the starting 22 with C graders.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

L
It all starts in the middle
Replies
14
Views
694
dogwatch
dogwatch
geoffjennings79
Coach IF (unlikely) we are appointing a new coach, what are realistic options
2
Replies
44
Views
2K
cecil
cecil
_Mike_
  • Sticky
Mod. Notice Welcome Fossie32 to the Bulldogs Community Leader role
Replies
8
Views
349
Chicago1
Chicago1
weltschmerz
Welcome to the Bulldogs Aiden O’Driscoll
2 3
Replies
69
Views
7K
ossie_21
ossie_21
dogwatch
Game Day LIVE - AFL 2023 Draftwatch for the WB
32 33 34 35 36
Replies
890
Views
34K
Mr. Walker
Mr. Walker
G
Western ( Whitten) oval goals.
Replies
15
Views
916
Oliver G
Oliver G
Testekill
Welcome to the Bulldogs Lachlan Bramble
2 3 4 5
Replies
104
Views
9K
Dogs_R_Us
Dogs_R_Us

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top