List Mgmt. The Missing Middle Tier - Why we are headed for a rebuild

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Dazb86 said:
What's your eye test on McComb and Hannan? West hasn't been given a fair run given his upside IMO
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My post was specifically a comment on West not the other two. On exposed form I wouldn't have any of them in my best 22. I think the match committee may be waiting for West to 'iron out a few bugs' and show some consistent improvement rather than the poor effort he displayed in his most recent VFL game.
 
When we play West, I feel like we don’t know what to do with him/nor accept that small forwards do drift in and out games (yet we accept Hannan, McComb doing that most games, minus the upside). Even the best ones in the league do this.

For mine, he’s a mid in waiting and rather than tossing the coin each week for which spud will play sub, I feel he could build plenty of confidence in that role for 3-4 weeks.

Come on, go hell for leather for a quarter or so and impact the game with a few plays.

We’ve got a reasonable draft hand to replenish mids this year, along with cap space freeing up after that when a few others move on. Short-term with picks and cash, we shouldn’t be worried about this.

Need to start looking more at our youngsters who aren’t playing and completely move on McComb, Scott, Hannan etc. Can’t have a terrible bottom end with that age profile.

Don’t be 6-10th and playing them guys, we’ll end up like North. I’ll cop that finish if those young ones are blooded more (we ain’t going to be worse anyway).

Our window might still be 2 years away. Naughton still isn’t completely there, Timmy is just hitting his straps really, while JUH, Darcy & Busslinger are all developing. Our next serious push probably revolves around those keys, with Daniel, Weightman, Bont, Smith, Macrae (he’s still only 28) etc still as the guns.

Would love an immediate impact from that next draft though. A 2019 Bailey Smith would do nicely.
 
Lex22 said:
When we play West, I feel like we don’t know what to do with him/nor accept that small forwards do drift in and out games (yet we accept Hannan, McComb doing that most games, minus the upside). Even the best ones in the league do this.

For mine, he’s a mid in waiting and rather than tossing the coin each week for which spud will play sub, I feel he could build plenty of confidence in that role for 3-4 weeks.

Come on, go hell for leather for a quarter or so and impact the game with a few plays.

We’ve got a reasonable draft hand to replenish mids this year, along with cap space freeing up after that when a few others move on. Short-term with picks and cash, we shouldn’t be worried about this.

Need to start looking more at our youngsters who aren’t playing and completely move on McComb, Scott, Hannan etc. Can’t have a terrible bottom end with that age profile.

Don’t be 6-10th and playing them guys, we’ll end up like North. I’ll cop that finish if those young ones are blooded more (we ain’t going to be worse anyway).

Our window might still be 2 years away. Naughton still isn’t completely there, Timmy is just hitting his straps really, while JUH, Darcy & Busslinger are all developing. Our next serious push probably revolves around those keys, with Daniel, Weightman, Bont, Smith, Macrae (he’s still only 28) etc still as the guns.

Would love an immediate impact from that next draft though. A 2019 Bailey Smith would do nicely.
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Totally agree with this assessment.

Our premiership window has closed. If the club plays its cards well we can be in a position to reopen the window from 2025/26. By then Libba, Trelor, Jones, Bruce, Doc, Crozier, Keith, and Lobb will be either gone or on their last legs. Our 2023 draft needs to focus on quality mids that can impact in 2025/26. We also need to give decent game time to younger players with real upside potential: West, Kamis, Arty, Cleary, Darcy, Busslinger(when ready), etc.
 

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West and Garcia are only going to be bit players. They just aren't good enough to be 4 quarter onballers. Yes a burst in the middle here and there but thats it. They can't cover the ground like a modern day onballers. Richards is best place to become our next onballer or whoever we draft this year. Cupboard is bare for up and coming onballers compared to other clubs.
 
I often wonder if West should be tried in his Dad’s role. He’s got those fast hands . But maybe the game has switched too much to fast explosive ball winners . He’d be chasing shadows.
 
bresker said:
I often wonder if West should be tried in his Dad’s role. He’s got those fast hands . But maybe the game has switched too much to fast explosive ball winners . He’d be chasing shadows.
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Potentially in the same boat as Wallis the last few years. I personally rate West due to his attack on the ball and man. Can win a few 50/50's a game and put on pressure. Has done some very good things at AFL level
 
LondonBulldog said:
West and Garcia are only going to be bit players. They just aren't good enough to be 4 quarter onballers. Yes a burst in the middle here and there but thats it. They can't cover the ground like a modern day onballers. Richards is best place to become our next onballer or whoever we draft this year. Cupboard is bare for up and coming onballers compared to other clubs.
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Garcia moves OK, doesnt he? His worst games at senior level are on par with Mccombs output anyway
 
stefoid said:
Garcia moves OK, doesnt he? His worst games at senior level are on par with Mccombs output anyway
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Much better than McCombs agreed, but still a long way off the best onballers in the comp and realistically will struggle to get there. Not to say there is not a role for him at the club.
 
Dazb86 said:
Potentially in the same boat as Wallis the last few years. I personally rate West due to his attack on the ball and man. Can win a few 50/50's a game and put on pressure. Has done some very good things at AFL level
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Wallis was titantic like though, slow turning circle and most importantly to his downfall IMO was the way he played, he was a hands & knees player - I don’t think he ever contested a ground ball on his feet, which is just not viable in the modern game. West whilst not quick has genuinely elite agility and a low center of gravity so I think the way they attack the contest is very different
 
Our weird little draft manager dude needs to leave and a dude who can find quality talent needs to be brought in. We are DOA if we don’t act on this bloke very quickly.
 
Deadly Darcy said:
Our weird little draft manager dude needs to leave and a dude who can find quality talent needs to be brought in. We are DOA if we don’t act on this bloke very quickly.
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Why is that? I'd be interested in a run down on his failings.

He hasn't had much to work with yet because we've cleaned out most of our mid-range picks for the years 2020 and 2021. Too early to judge him yet on the 2022 draft.
 
Deadly Darcy said:
Our weird little draft manager dude needs to leave and a dude who can find quality talent needs to be brought in. We are DOA if we don’t act on this bloke very quickly.
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Wow. Milesi has been there for 3 drafts.

His 1st rounders have been JUH, Darcy and Busslinger.

His later picks have been Bedendo, Arty Jones, Cleary and Gallagher.

What do you see as the hanging offences in those picks?
 

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would be good to start profiling his hits and misses though. we can put a line thru father sons, academy and Footscray - the picks that are forgone conclusions

dalrymples last live picks were Naughton, Richards and Porter. And in the rookie draft we picked Gowers before a few players like Liam Baker and Brodie Miocheck were picked. I mean, it happens, but you gotta wonder what might have been if someone hadnt pushed Gowers

Then the next live picks were
2018: smith@7 , Vander @ 37, Cavarra @ 45, rookie: lauchie Young, Jordan Sweet
2019: weightman@15, Butler @53, garcia@62 , rookie: --
2020: bedendo@55, rookie - mcneil
2021: jones@43, cleary@61, rookie - Parker@17
2022: busslinger@13, clarke@24, galhager@39, rookie --

Did we miss any guns who came just after our 1st round picks? I dont think so...
If smith, weightman and busslinger play 200 games, thats a pass. as far as we can tell at the moment, smith and weightman are tracking well.
If 3 or 4 of the others also become good players, you would have to say our drafting has been good given the picks available.
 
stefoid said:
would be good to start profiling his hits and misses though. we can put a line thru father sons, academy and Footscray - the picks that are forgone conclusions

dalrymples last live picks were Naughton, Richards and Porter. And in the rookie draft we picked Gowers before a few players like Liam Baker and Brodie Miocheck were picked. I mean, it happens, but you gotta wonder what might have been if someone hadnt pushed Gowers

Then the next live picks were
2018: smith@7 , Vander @ 37, Cavarra @ 45, rookie: lauchie Young, Jordan Sweet
2019: weightman@15, Butler @53, garcia@62 , rookie: --
2020: bedendo@55, rookie - mcneil
2021: jones@43, cleary@61, rookie - Parker@17
2022: busslinger@13, clarke@24, galhager@39, rookie --

Did we miss any guns who came just after our 1st round picks? I dont think so...
If smith, weightman and busslinger play 200 games, thats a pass. as far as we can tell at the moment, smith and weightman are tracking well.
If 3 or 4 of the others also become good players, you would have to say our drafting has been good given the picks available.
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Milesi started in ‘20. Last years draft will be his first real test, but Bedendo, Cleary & AJ is a pretty promising crop from picks 40 onwards IMO

With the rookie selections I’d almost already call McNeil a hit (he’s already a serviceable AFL level pressure forward) and Parker an obvious fail.

So in conclusion it’s too early to tell which makes the post potting him pretty weird and out of line, if 1-2 of AJ/Cleary/Bedendo become a B grader, and we get at least 1x A grader and another best 22 player from ‘22 id call that pretty successful.
 
If your baseline for judging Garcias potential is McComb then you're doing it wrong.

I think a slightly higher metric would be appropriate. The problem is that most of the guys one would realistically judge him against on the list are either perpetually injured, career stalled or at very long odds to make it beyond the next season or so.

West is in a similar position. The calls are now coming that perhaps he should play more at the coalface like his father did. This is all well and good in theory. The problem is that he runs smack up against the same issue that saw Mitch Wallis' career never reach the heights that it perhaps should have. That of the 183cm Tom Liberatore shaped ball winning colossus. I just can't see a world where Liberatore is going to be moved sideways so as to get games into West. Nor can I see a time when booth will play on the ball at the same time. He may or mayn't be a natural centreman or he may be a small tall forward where he has undoubtably looked most comfortable. But the fact is that he's behind two better players in both those positions right now and he just hasn't looked suited to playing anywhere else. Perhaps a stint as a small defender might work. Dunno.

McComb is obviously no great shakes on a wing, but Im not sure that either Garcia, West or too many others currently available would be either. Certainly Roarke would be, Vandermeer probably, Bedendo might be. McNeil? Then it's pretty slim pickings for somebody who is capable of playing the wing/utility role that McComb generally plays. This is why in my view he's getting games not because a recalcitrant Beveridge loves him, but because there is * all else available. Unless the MC want to role the dice and play one or both of Dale or Richards through the wings then I can't see a time when we won't see McComb getting games. Sorry.

Things need to be shook in this side and I'd make that change in a heartbeat because what we're doing right now is spluttering at best and aint working at worst.
 
Last year West averaged 0.86 goal assists per game: the 4th highest on our list.
I would like to see him given more opportunities as a small forward.
 
Problem I see with West is that he doesn’t have the body that matches his strengths. Put his aggression and marking ability into someone like Josh Kennedy, he’ll be a star. But he is relatively small where we want speed, agility, vision and skills. If he keeps going as hard he does, he’ll end up like Clay Smith and it will be career over at 25.
 
Planet Dogs said:
Another idea: am I crazy? How about Crozier in the forward line?
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We traded him in to play forward but he has shown far more behind the ball.
I love Croz but I think we have to look past him for our 2024+ plans.

Lobb-Naughts-Marra as the marking options. Weightman that 4th/utility type, a pressure small (Arty/VDM/hopefully Charlie Clarke in time) with 1-2 resting mid/forwards.

I'd look at another small forward at draft/rookie time this year as I think we're a bit thin in that area.
 
Planet Dogs said:
Another idea: am I crazy? How about Crozier in the forward line?
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We desperately need dynamism in the forward half. Not a guy who's best attribute is catching the ball. Something we have in spades forward.

It's why we are putting games into Arthur Jones well ahead of where his development warrants.

That alone tells us all we need to know about our genuine small forward stocks.
 
I don't think the issue is just personnel. The revolving door of the coaches panel and the assistants hasn't helped either.

My god did they under allocate to the backline though. It is seriously dire back there.
 
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