Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[ferball]

You have lost me. Maybe because you are using a different definition of belief.

Im only agnostic athiest in regards to black holes and whatever came before the big bang. On earth it is provable as anything is provable (With exception of mathematical statements) that gods do not exist.

So not at all provable as nothing is really provable, only disprovable. (Except maths.)

What Is a god and how would you measure its existence?

 

[Seeds]

So not at all provable as nothing is really provable, only disprovable. Except maths.

What Is a god and how would you measure its existence?

A god is a non natural force that comes and goes as it pleases.

Nothing may be 100 percent provable beyond maths and basic logical statements. Thus why i used the term belief. But when the probabilities of not being true given the world we have observed so far are so ridiculously small then it is of no use to anyone to say such a thing is not provable. Evolution is provable. The earth is round is provable. Gravity is real is provable. Only a natural plane of existence is provable.

 

[ferball]

Seeds

The earth isn't round.

Evolution is a thing, change over time in response to changing environmental conditions. However the details of "evolution" change all the time.

How does gravity work? It's a word to describe something (attraction between matter) that we don't understand (yet).

If gods exist they are "natural" by definition of their existence. Same with all "supernatural" phenomonen.

 

[Wedge McManus]

It’s history numbnuts. It was what was being taught... doesn’t have to be correct. It happened. It’s Christian doctrine. God made man in Gods image etc etc.. The Church ruled etc etc. The Vatican observatory is one of the oldest astronomical institutes .

That's exactly how I'd expect a fundie to respond, with abuse and nonsense. So just don't get too precious when you get it back bro

 

[Total Power]

A god is a non natural force that comes and goes as it pleases.

Nothing may be 100 percent provable beyond maths and basic logical statements. Thus why i used the term belief. But when the probabilities of not being true given the world we have observed so far are so ridiculously small then it is of no use to anyone to say such a thing is not provable. Evolution is provable. The earth is round is provable. Gravity is real is provable. Only a natural plane of existence is provable.

'Objective Realism' can not be maintained as experiments continue to refute that view point. A 'scientific positivist' point of view is supported by epistemic considerations. Simply put there is no such thing as "objective reality" or "reality" ..there is only an "experience" of reality.

In QM, the act of observation seems to create the properties that the quantum system did not have prior to observation, because the conditions for observation to be possible, necessitates that the underlying reality be forced to conform to our a-priori intuitions, ...our 'forms of thought', ...or conceptual structure,.... dependent upon the way the mind synthesis experience at the macroscopic scale.....

The result is that QM does not tell us about 'Independent Reality', but rather of our Experience of reality, since we add or force the wave-function to collapse into conceptual values. ....i.e. the concept of 'position' with respect to say an electron is simply not defined until it is observed, ...until it interacts with the macroscopic apparatus designed to conform the underlying reality (the "electron") to the concept of 'position'.

Some people get so carried away with science, they forget the basic principles behind it. Nothing is provable, yes i mean NOTHING.

"There is no way to remove the observer us from our perception of the world, which is created through our sensory processing and through the way we think and reason. Our perception and the observations upon which our theories are based are shaped by a kind of lens, the interpretive structure of our human brains." - Stephen Hawking

 

[Wedge McManus]

If I can't make a stupid, smart arse comment in a thread about religion then things have become pretty grim.

Well I can't argue with that. As you were

 

[Wedge McManus]

and research the correlation between the autism spectrum and atheism while they are at it.

What's so stupid about using a distinct lack of religious evidence to base an argument on? Why are you calling atheists autistic for having the guts to call a spade a spade?

And what's wrong with being autistic? You are a very nasty fundie aren't you?

 

[Wedge McManus]

There are several studies on that very topic.
The most humorous is the American one, the states that rate the lowest in intelligence are the most religious red states, also the highest per capita in unwanted and aborted teen pregnancies and the highest rates of gay pr0n users.

Also those red states are the very places which place a very high premium on judging a person's worth by the amount of melanin in their skin. Stupidity doesn't begin to describe it.

 

[chelseacarlton]

You have lost me. Maybe because you are using a different definition of belief.

Im only agnostic athiest in regards to black holes and whatever came before the big bang. On earth it is provable as anything is provable (With exception of mathematical statements) that gods do not exist.

Yes, we appear to be getting slightly lost in the semantics.
You’re agnostic atheist in regards to Blackholes?
Atheism is a non belief in god/s, what do blackholes and pre-Planck time have to do with atheism, they are matters of physics?!
In regards to god/s, you are what’s known as an gnostic atheist, if you believe you know there are no gods.
The highlighted may been my error on the previous reply, agnostic versus gnostic.

 

[chelseacarlton]

What's so stupid about using a distinct lack of religious evidence to base an argument on? Why are you calling atheists autistic for having the guts to call a spade a spade?

And what's wrong with being autistic? You are a very nasty fundie aren't you?

He’s full of s**t on this matter of autism and atheism having any links at all, I think he provided some pathetic document by an unqualified nimrod on a fundie christian page.
Classic whataboutism derpnessment on his behalf.

 

[ferball]

'Objective Realism' can not be maintained as experiments continue to refute that view point. A 'scientific positivist' point of view is supported by epistemic considerations. Simply put there is no such thing as "objective reality" or "reality" ..there is only an "experience" of reality.

In QM, the act of observation seems to create the properties that the quantum system did not have prior to observation, because the conditions for observation to be possible, necessitates that the underlying reality be forced to conform to our a-priori intuitions, ...our 'forms of thought', ...or conceptual structure,.... dependent upon the way the mind synthesis experience at the macroscopic scale.....

The result is that QM does not tell us about 'Independent Reality', but rather of our Experience of reality, since we add or force the wave-function to collapse into conceptual values. ....i.e. the concept of 'position' with respect to say an electron is simply not defined until it is observed, ...until it interacts with the macroscopic apparatus designed to conform the underlying reality (the "electron") to the concept of 'position'.

Some people get so carried away with science, they forget the basic principles behind it. Nothing is provable, yes i mean NOTHING.

"There is no way to remove the observer us from our perception of the world, which is created through our sensory processing and through the way we think and reason. Our perception and the observations upon which our theories are based are shaped by a kind of lens, the interpretive structure of our human brains." - Stephen Hawking

There is an article about this up thread that I linked to if you haven't seen it. I haven't posted that much in this thread so it's easy to find. It's a piece on an evolutionary biologist who is trying to get his head around these ideas.

His starting point is that reality is unknowable and all our sensory experiences are effectively illusions that we use to survive. Ie our senses tell us nothing about objective reality but everything about how to stay alive long enough to breed. Straightforward enough idea I guess.

 

[Boston tiger]

What's so stupid about using a distinct lack of religious evidence to base an argument on? Why are you calling atheists autistic for having the guts to call a spade a spade?

And what's wrong with being autistic? You are a very nasty fundie aren't you?

What’s wrong with researching the correlation between those that score high on the autism spectrum and atheists?

 

[Boston tiger]

That's exactly how I'd expect a fundie to respond, with abuse and nonsense. So just don't get too precious when you get it back bro

But do you understand the importance of Christianity in the promotion of science. You know universities and all that

 

[Corpuscles]

What’s wrong with researching the correlation between those that score high on the autism spectrum and atheists?

Nothing!

However, time would be better spent contemplating why any all knowing all caring and loving imaginary creator God, would amongst other things 'design' autism and other serious mental genetical maladies ?
Then also why it fails those who try to believe or claim to actually believe, the man made promises in it's name, of answering their or any 'prayer' , by not immediately rectifying the mistake?

 

[M Malice]

Some hypothesise that the Universe is without beginning and without end.... eternal so no need for a creator, we/life was inevitable with an infinite amount of Petri dishes.

However humans could be around for thousands more years and still not know all there is to know about this reality, much of what is now viewed as unknowable or mysterious will one day be understood eg. possible other dimensions.

Although I'm pretty sure that a bearded man in the sky preoccupied with among other things what we do with our own and to each others genitals will not be confirmed.

 

[Boston tiger]

He’s full of s**t on this matter of autism and atheism having any links at all, I think he provided some pathetic document by an unqualified nimrod on a fundie christian page.
Classic whataboutism derpnessment on his behalf.

There’s also that study by neuroscience that points towards those that need to visualise to understand have trouble with the God concept because you can’t visualise God etc.? No judgements here just keeping it scientific.

 

[Pessimistic]

Just beware of who writes history. The church copped it in the neck from the powerful Protestant churches/ countries there for a fair awhile. The misconceptions of the Galileo case for one. But definitely panic stations and a backlash against science when the Protestant revolution was in full swing .

Theres no doubt the 'church' sponsored learning and discovery long before it was fashionable.

Weighing against that is the propensity to destroy knowledge they found uncomfortable at the time

Researchers using the sponsorship obviously used codes to get round the censorship where they saw the knowledge was important over politics

 

[Corpuscles]

There’s also that study by neuroscience that points towards those that need to visualise to understand have trouble with the God concept because you can’t visualise God etc.? No judgements here just keeping it scientific.

Very interesting!
That a natural normal human faculty, even regularly used in imagination, creativity, work, activity, sport, and communication and is generally extremely positive attribute , cannot apparently be utilized often in such contemplation.
However, those with limited or missing or deficient of such faculty, are somehow more able to accept a vague concept that cannot be visualised.

Which is the handicapped ?
The one with the faculty, or those with no need for it or deficient, and rely on brainwashing and what others have told them?

Of course, there MUST be a universal creative force!
However, it is far too complex for mere humans to pretend they know all, or even much at all, about it.

 

[Boston tiger]

Nothing!

However, time would be better spent contemplating why any all knowing all caring and loving imaginary creator God, would amongst other things 'design' autism and other serious mental genetical maladies ?
Then also why it fails those who try to believe or claim to actually believe, the man made promises in it's name, of answering their or any 'prayer' , by not immediately rectifying the mistake?

Suffering has been contemplated to death over the 2000 years but feel free to contemplate. It’s an interesting contemplate

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

But do you understand the importance of Christianity in the promotion of science. You know universities and all that

Those first unis were predominantly for priests for theological studies. Don’t think there was too much science study going on.

 

[Boston tiger]

Very interesting!
That a natural normal human faculty, even regularly used in imagination, creativity, work, activity, sport, and communication and is generally extremely positive attribute , cannot apparently be utilized often in such contemplation.
However, those with limited or missing or deficient of such faculty, are somehow more able to accept a vague concept that cannot be visualised.

Which is the handicapped ?
The one with the faculty, or those with no need for it or deficient, and rely on brainwashing and what others have told them?

Of course, there MUST be a universal creative force!
However, it is far too complex for mere humans to pretend they know all, or even much at all, about it.

It’s neuroscience.. do what you want with it. Not sure where handicap comes into it

 

[Boston tiger]

Those first unis were predominantly for priests for theological studies. Don’t think there was too much science study going on.

Thank God for theological studies then .. otherwise we may have never had universities.

 

[Scotland]

i think you are confusing athiesm with agnosticism. Athiests dont just believe in no god, they believe there is only a natural plane of existence and no spiritial plane and they base this on evidence just like we do with belief in evolution and round earth. Most of us dont see round earth or evolution with out eyes. We see it with data and belief that images of the earth on tv from outer space are real. Athiests believe there is only a natural plane of existence because we have found no evidence through empirical testing that any phenomena on earth is a result of spirtual forces. None. Whenever scientists figure out how some phenomena works it turns out the answer is alway reducable down to four natural forces. Gravity, electromagnestism, weak nuclear force and strong nuclear force. Scientists have now come up with an equation that explains everything and there is no god or spirual component to that equation. Its an amazing achievement of human kind. Thus we conclude that a natural state of existence is all there is.

Atheism is what you want it to be.

Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

What is Atheism?

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods. It is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about a person.

www.atheists.org

I've posted this before and I stick by it. If you want to call that agnosticism go ahead, for mine being agnostic is all about the unknown. 'I don't know if there is a god but how can anyone ever know?' - wishy washy nonsense.

I don't believe in the existence of any gods nor do I think they are necessary, but if I'm wrong and God is sitting up on his cloud watching me and shaking his head then so be it. If there is indeed a god then it can and should eventually be known and observed and opinion won't change until that day comes. That's the distinction to me. You can take it to the extreme and argue until you are blue in the face that there cannot under any circumstances be a god but from my POV it's easier to just tell Christians that their fairy tales are nonsense and get on with my day.

 

[Scotland]

Seeds

The earth isn't round.

Correct, it's an oblate spheroid.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Thank God for theological studies then .. otherwise we may have never had universities.

Don’t think so as first unis actually were in Africa and Middle East.