Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2
- Status
You aren't? we are here to 'ask a christian' , talk about the Bible, we are not here to seek life advice on how to lead our life and think. You keep saying how it is important to be a fundie in our lives? as i said i am not a halfwit like your mob.
You keep doing the same thing post after post. I came from the sewer why would i go back? The more i read from you the more i am convinced you have NFI
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
You refer to yourself as having been in prison, and coming from the sewer... What really gives?
You ask a Christian on this thread why we believe what we do.
It was never meant to be a debate Christian v Atheist, or in your case, uncommitted to anything.
Not at all, you actually tried to tell 2 pages ago about OT being for the Jews. Faith can justify anything, even killing of innocents and all the immoral things your god have done. I am not surprised, somewhere deep inside even you know the God of OT is a w@nker.
You said this:
Focus on Jesus. That is why we are CHRISTIANS. His words and works. Without Jesus, you stick to JUDAISM
This is so ***** it's not even funny. Jesus' preachings mean nothing without the moral laws of OT. Focus' on Jesus while ignoring the laws of OT means you actually don't believe in your own God. You must first believe in the moral laws of OT only then Jesus' preaching's can start making sense to you. Saying without Jesus its Judaism, goes to show you don't know about your own religion. The context of Jesus' message lies in the OT. YWH and Jesus is the same person remember?
All you fundies operate the same way. You have been caught with your pants down on several occassions here and your comeback message is always like
- keep reading, you will find Jesus once
- Your search continues, you will believe in Jesus one day
etc etc.
Such a defeatist argument, it's not even funny.
I told you about my life, prison was a far better place than where i was. Go back and read how i suffered (and my parents being devout christians) throughout my childhood. Happy to refer to the post again. My actual liberation came right after i lost my faith, my life got better almost instantly. If it was the other way around you will say Jesus did it for me. Confirmation bias is a terrible thing. Why would i go back to a jail?
It's exactly ask a christian. I am not asking for life advice, i am asking for you to debate the Bible, i will appreciate it if you stop preaching and give advice on how to live my life? just because you are an obedient slave boy, it doesnt mean everyone. I am truly free, you are not.
i am here to debate theology, i am not an atheist, so i am not sure where you getting atheist vs christian from and somehow you think you have a copyright for god, aka if God exists it must be your God. This is such a shitty assumption to make. 5.5 billion people believe in God which got nothing to do with your God. That's why i am here to debate the BIBLE, not about which god is real, i am just here to debate theology, but this is apparently too difficult for you do, cause your lack of understanding of theology is apparent. Your lack of scriptural defence shows you have been defeated, constantly resorting to evangelical arguments like 'you will find Jesus soon' shows this.
I have no desire or will to believe in your deity or follow him even if he was real. His character stinks and there's nothing i appreciate about this deity. You keep repeating the same thing x100 times won't change that. I asked you 2 basic questions which still went unanswered
1. What is the character of your deity like?
2. What is sin.
You haven't answered these questions, which is very basic to Christianity, but apparently you claim to know the Bible.
Theres a saying, learn to walk before you can run.
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Vdubs
Hall of Famer
I stick by that. Jesus is why we are Christians, and His words are in the NT. But the OT is critical as it lays down the laws of God, and it represents many prophesies about the coming of Jesus, and because Jesus refers to the teachings as critical.
And how many of them been fulfilled by Jesus that was prophecised in the OT? NONE. A big fat Zero. Which is why Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah/God
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Wrong. Ask A Christian. I am a Christian. You are not an atheist. You ask questions from a background of having had some faith.? What do you refer to as being in prison? Is that metaphorical for a Christian upbringing, or was there actual time i a real prison? You do not make it clear.
I am not an atheist, i am an atheist when it comes to your God, just like you an atheist when it comes to other religions. I have stated that a million times yet you keep putting words in my mouth. If you insist on doing it, why do you bother replying to my messages when you are just flat out lying about me now?
Yes i mean metaphorical Christian upbringing, i have read the Bible several times till i was 18, i went to the Church 3 times a week (atleast), sometimes 6 days a week. I have read Bible from cover to cover, many times.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
INCORRECT
From The Jesus Film Project,
Some scholars believe there are more than 300 prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament. These prophecies are specific enough that the mathematical probability of Jesus fulfilling even a handful of them, let alone all of them, is staggeringly improbable—if not impossible.
Peter Stoner, Chairman of the Departments of Mathematics and Astronomy at Pasadena College, was passionate about biblical prophecies. With 600 students from the InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Stoner looked at eight specific prophecies about Jesus. They came up with extremely conservative probabilities for each one being fulfilled, and then considered the likelihood of Jesus fulfilling all eight of those prophecies.
The conclusion to his research was staggering. The prospect that anyone would satisfy those eight prophecies was just 1 in 1017. In Science Speaks, he described it like this:
"Let us try to visualize this chance. If you mark one of ten tickets, and place all of the tickets in a hat, and thoroughly stir them, and then ask a blindfolded man to draw one, his chance of getting the right ticket is one in ten. Suppose that we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state.
"Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote using their own wisdom."
55 Old Testament prophecies about Jesus
We put together 55 prophecies that cover four specific areas:
- Jesus's birth
- Jesus's ministry
- Jesus's death and resurrection
- Jesuss' role in the church
We've ordered the prophecies based on their Old Testament book order. For each one, we included a verse showing its fulfillment in the New Testament.
It's our hope that your faith is strengthened as you peruse these prophecies about Jesus.
Prophecies of Jesus's birth
Not only was Christ's miraculous birth prophetically revealed, but God planned his lineage from the very beginning. Here are eight prophecies predicting elements of Jesus’ birth and childhood.
1. The nations will be blessed through Abraham's lineage
Prophecy:
"I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3).
Fulfillment:
"And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways” (Acts 3:25–26).
2. God's covenant with Isaac's ancestors
Prophecy:
"Then God said, 'Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him'" (Genesis 17:19).
Fulfillment:
"Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned'” (Romans 9:7).
3. The nations will be blessed through Jacob's offspring
Prophecy:
"Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring" (Genesis 28:14).
Fulfillment:
Jacob is part of Jesus’ genealogy.
"the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor" (Luke 3:34)
4. The scepter will come through Judah
Prophecy:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his" (Genesis 49:10).
Fulfillment:
Judah is part of Jesus's genealogy.
"the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah" (Luke 3:33)
5. David's offspring will have an eternal kingdom
Prophecy:
"When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever" (2 Samuel 7:12–13).
Fulfillment:
"This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham" (Matthew 1:1)
6. A virgin will give birth, and he will be called Immanuel (God with us)
Prophecy:
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14).
Fulfillment:
"The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).
7. The Messiah will end up in Egypt
Prophecy:
"When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son" (Hosea 11:1).
Fulfillment:
"So he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'Out of Egypt I called my son'" (Matthew 2:14–15).
8. The Christ will be born in Bethlehem
Prophecy:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times." (Micah 5:2).
Fulfillment:
"When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born. 'In Bethlehem in Judea,' they replied, 'for this is what the prophet has written:
"'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will shepherd my people Israel.'" (Matthew 2:4–6).
Prophecies about Jesus's ministry
It was God’s plan that Jesus would have a profound ministry during his time on earth. This collection of prophecies focuses on particularly specific elements of Christ's earthly ministry.
9. Christ's ministry will destroy the devil's work
Prophecy:
"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel" (Genesis 3:15).
Fulfillment:
"The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work" (1 John 3:8).
10. Jesus will have a sinless, blemish-free life and ministry
Prophecy:
"The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats" (Exodus 12:5).
Fulfillment:
"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" (Hebrews 9:14)
11. The Messiah will be humbled in order to serve mankind
Prophecy:
"You have made them a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.
You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet" (Psalm 8:5–6)
Fulfillment:
"It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. But there is a place where someone has testified:
'What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
and put everything under their feet.'
"In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone" (Hebrews 2:5–9).
12. Jesus would become the perfect sacrifice
Prophecy:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened—
burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.
I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart" (Psalm 40:6–8).
Fulfillment:
"Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.'
"Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”
"First he said, 'Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them'—though they were offered in accordance with the law. Then he said, 'Here I am, I have come to do your will.' He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:5–10).
13. Jesus would preach righteousness to Israel
Prophecy:
"I proclaim your saving acts in the great assembly;
I do not seal my lips, Lord,
as you know" (Psalm 40:9).
Fulfillment:
"From that time on Jesus began to preach, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near'" (Matthew 4:17).
14. Jesus would teach in parables
Prophecy:
"My people, hear my teaching;
listen to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth with a parable;
I will utter hidden things, things from of old" (Psalm 78:1–2)
Fulfillment:
"Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
'I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world'" (Matthew 13:34–35).
15. Christ's parables would fall on deaf ears
Prophecy:
"He said, 'Go and tell this people:
"Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed"'" (Isaiah 6:9–10).
Fulfillment:
"This is why I speak to them in parables:
'Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
'"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them"'" (Matthew 13:13–15).
16. The Messiah would be a stone that causes people to stumble
Prophecy:
"He will be a holy place;
for both Israel and Judah he will be
a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.
And for the people of Jerusalem he will be
a trap and a snare" (Isaiah 8:14).
Fulfillment:
"Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
'The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,'
and,
'A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.'
"They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for" (1 Peter 2:7–8).
17. Christ's ministry would begin in Galilee
Prophecy:
"Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—
The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of deep darkness
a light has dawned" (Isaiah 9:1–2).
Fulfillment:
"When Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, he withdrew to Galilee. Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali—to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:
'Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles—
the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned.'
"From that time on Jesus began to preach, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near'" (Matthew 4:12–17).
18. Jesus would draw the Gentiles to himself
Prophecy:
"In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious" (Isaiah 11:10).
Fulfillment:
"Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign, went out to meet him. So the Pharisees said to one another, 'See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!'
"Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the festival. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. 'Sir,' they said, 'we would like to see Jesus'" (John 12:18–21).
19. Jesus would have a miraculous ministry
Prophecy:
"Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
Then will the lame leap like a deer,
and the mute tongue shout for joy.
Water will gush forth in the wilderness
and streams in the desert" (Isaiah 35:5–6).
Fulfillment:
"When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, 'Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?'
"Jesus replied, 'Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me'" (Matthew 11:2–6).
20. The Messiah would be preceded by a forerunner
Prophecy:
"A voice of one calling:
'In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lord;
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain'" (Isaiah 40:3–4).
Fulfillment:
"John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, 'I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, "Make straight the way for the Lord"'" (John 1:23).
21. Jesus will be a gentle redeemer of the Gentiles
Prophecy:
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will bring justice to the nations.
He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope" (Isaiah 42:1–4).
Fulfillment:
"Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. A large crowd followed him, and he healed all who were ill. He warned them not to tell others about him. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
'Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
He will not quarrel or cry out;
no one will hear his voice in the streets.
A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he has brought justice through to victory.
In his name the nations will put their hope.'" (Matthew 12:15–21).
22. Jesus would be despised and rejected
Prophecy:
"He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem" (Isaiah 53:3).
Fulfillment:
"All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff" (Luke 4:28–29).
23. Jesus will set the captives free
Prophecy:
"The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners" (Isaiah 61:1)
Fulfillment:
"He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
'The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.'
"Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, 'Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing'" (Luke 4:16–21).
24. The Messiah will have a throne that is everlasting
Prophecy:
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed" (Daniel 7:13–14).
Fulfillment:
"You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end" (Luke 1:31–33).
25. The Messiah will bring an end to sin
Prophecy:
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place" (Daniel 9:24).
Fulfillment:
"Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed" (Daniel 9:25–26).
"Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen" (Galatians 1:3–5).
26. Jerusalem will rejoice as the Messiah comes to her upon a donkey
Prophecy:
"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey" (Zechariah 9:9).
Fulfillment:
"A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted,
'Hosanna to the Son of David!'
'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'
'Hosanna in the highest heaven!'
"When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, 'Who is this?'" (Matthew 21:8–10)
27. He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
Prophecy:
"I told them, 'If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.' So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
"And the Lord said to me, 'Throw it to the potter'—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord" (Zechariah 11:12–13).
Fulfillment:
"The chief priests picked up the coins and said, 'It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.' So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: 'They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me'" (Matthew 27:6–10).
28. Christ's forerunner would come in the spirit of Elijah
Prophecy:
"See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction" (Malachi 4:5–6).
Fulfillment:
"This is the one about whom it is written:
'I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’
"Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. Whoever has ears, let them hear" (Matthew 11:10–15).
Prophecies about Jesus's death and resurrection
The death and resurrection of Christ are the most significant events in human history. It’s no surprise that there would be plenty of Old Testament prophecies pointing to this remarkable event.
29. Christ will be our Passover Lamb
Prophecy:
"Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, 'Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe.
'None of you shall go out of the door of your house until morning. When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.
'Obey these instructions as a lasting ordinance for you and your descendants. When you enter the land that the Lord will give you as he promised, observe this ceremony. And when your children ask you, "What does this ceremony mean to you?" then tell them, ‘"t is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians."' Then the people bowed down and worshiped" (Exodus 12:21–27).
Fulfillment:
"Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed" (1 Corinthians 5:7).
30. Like the Passover Lamb, none of the Christ's bones will be broken
Prophecy:
"It must be eaten inside the house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones" (Exodus 12:46).
Fulfillment:
"Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: 'Not one of his bones will be broken'" (John 19:31–36)
31. The Messiah's blood will be spilled for atonement
Prophecy:
"For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life" (Leviticus 17:11).
Fulfillment:
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matthew 26:28).
32. Jesus will be lifted up, and everyone who looks on Him will live
Prophecy:
"So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived" (Numbers 21:9).
Fulfillment:
"'Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.'
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son" (John 3:14–18).
33. Christ's resurrection prophesied
Prophecy:
"Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead,
or engraved in rock forever!
I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!" (Job 19:23–27)
Fulfillment:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned" (John 5:24–29).
34. The Messiah would be forsaken
Prophecy:
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?" (Psalm 22:1)
Fulfillment:
"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?' (which means 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?')" (Matthew 27:46).
35. The Messiah would be scorned
Prophecy:
"'He trusts in the Lord,' they say,
'let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him'" (Psalm 22:8).
Fulfillment:
"'He saved others,' they said, 'but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, "I am the Son of God"'" (Matthew 27:42–43).
36. The Messiah's suffering would include thirst
Prophecy:
"My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death" (Psalm 22:15).
Fulfillment:
"Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, 'I am thirsty'" (John 19:28).
37. They would pierce Christ's hands and feet
Prophecy:
"Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16).
Fulfillment:
"These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: 'Not one of his bones will be broken,' and, as another scripture says, 'They will look on the one they have pierced'" (John 19:36–37).
38. They would cast lots for Jesus's clothing
Prophecy:
"They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment" (Psalm 22:18).
Fulfillment:
"When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
'Let’s not tear it,' they said to one another. 'Let’s decide by lot who will get it.'
"This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,
'They divided my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.'
"So this is what the soldiers did" (John 19:23–24).
39. The Messiah will cry, "Into your hands I commit my Spirit"
Prophecy:
"Into your hands I commit my spirit;
deliver me, Lord, my faithful God" (Psalm 31:5).
Fulfillment:
"Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.' When he had said this, he breathed his last" (Luke 23:46).
40. Everyone will abandon the Messiah
Prophecy:
"Because of all my enemies,
I am the utter contempt of my neighbors
and an object of dread to my closest friends—
those who see me on the street flee from me" (Psalm 31:11).
Fulfillment:
"Then everyone deserted him and fled" (Mark 14:50).
41. They will plot to kill God's anointed
Prophecy:
"For I hear many whispering,
'Terror on every side!'
They conspire against me
and plot to take my life" (Psalm 31:13).
Fulfillment:
"Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed" (Matthew 27:1).
42. The Messiah will be quiet before his accusers
Prophecy:
"Those who want to kill me set their traps,
those who would harm me talk of my ruin;
all day long they scheme and lie.
I am like the deaf, who cannot hear,
like the mute, who cannot speak" (Psalm 38:12–13)
Fulfillment:
"When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, 'Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?' But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge—to the great amazement of the governor" (Matthew 27:12–14).
43. God's anointed will not see decay
Prophecy:
"Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest secure,
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
nor will you let your faithful one see decay.
You make known to me the path of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence,
with eternal pleasures at your right hand" (Psalm 16:9–11).
Fulfillment:
"Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay" (Acts 2:31).
44. The Messiah would be abandoned by those closest to him
Prophecy:
"Even my close friend,
someone I trusted,
one who shared my bread,
has turned against me" (Psalm 41:9).
Fulfillment:
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me’" (John 13:18).
45. The Christ will ascend into the heavens to distribute gifts
Prophecy:
"When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from the rebellious—
that you, Lord God, might dwell there" (Psalm 68:18).
Fulfillment:
"But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
'When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.'
"(What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
"Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work" (Ephesians 4:7–16).
46. The Christ's thirst will be quenched with vinegar and gall
Prophecy:
"They put gall in my food
and gave me vinegar for my thirst" (Psalm 69:21).
Fulfillment:
"There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it" (Matthew 27:34).
47. The Messiah's resurrection predicted
Prophecy:
"I will not die but live,
and will proclaim what the Lord has done.
The Lord has chastened me severely,
but he has not given me over to death" (Psalm 118:17–18).
Fulfillment:
"In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, 'Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: "The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again"'" (Luke 24:5–7).
48. The Messiah will conquer death
Prophecy:
"On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken" (Isaiah 25:7–8).
Fulfillment:
"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory'" (1 Corinthians 15:54).
49. The Messiah will be mocked and abused
Prophecy:
"'I clothe the heavens with darkness
and make sackcloth its covering.'
The Sovereign Lord has given me a well-instructed tongue,
to know the word that sustains the weary.
He wakens me morning by morning,
wakens my ear to listen like one being instructed.
The Sovereign Lord has opened my ears;
I have not been rebellious,
I have not turned away.
I offered my back to those who beat me,
my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
I did not hide my face
from mocking and spitting" (Isaiah 50:3–6).
Fulfillment:
"Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. 'Hail, king of the Jews!' they said. They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him" (Matthew 27:27–31).
Prophecies about Jesus's role in the church
What kind of presence would Jesus have in his church? These prophecies consider how Jesus would rule and judge the world.
50. God will raise up a prophet like Moses
Prophecy:
"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, 'Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die'" (Deuteronomy 18:15–16).
Fulfillment:
"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" (John 5:45–47)
51. God will raise up a faithful priest who does God's will
Prophecy:
"I will raise up for myself a faithful priest, who will do according to what is in my heart and mind. I will firmly establish his priestly house, and they will minister before my anointed one always" (1 Samuel 2:35).
Fulfillment:
"For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Hebrews 2:17).
If you’re interested in learning more about what Scripture says about God’s will, check out 20 Bible Verses about Discovering God's Will.
52. The Messiah will judge the world justly
Prophecy:
"The Lord reigns forever;
he has established his throne for judgment.
He rules the world in righteousness
and judges the peoples with equity.
The Lord is a refuge for the oppressed,
a stronghold in times of trouble.
Those who know your name trust in you,
for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you" (Psalm 9:7–10).
Fulfillment:
"For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead" (Acts 17:31).
53. The Messiah will have all authority over judgment
Prophecy:
"I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open" (Isaiah 22:22).
Fulfillment:
"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open" (Revelation 3:7).
54. The Messiah will pour out his Spirit
Prophecy:
"For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants" (Isaiah 44:3)
Fulfillment:
"But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you" (John 16:7).
55. The Messiah will usher in a new covenant
Prophecy:
"'The days are coming,' declares the Lord,
'when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah'" (Jeremiah 31:31).
Fulfillment:
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matthew 26:28).
Astute observers will recognize the topic of justice coming up again and again in these prophecies. It’s an idea central to the biblical theme. To learn more, check out “24 Informative Bible Verses about Justice.”
Discovering God's plan in the Old Testament
As these prophecies reveal, God planned our redemption all the way back in the garden. Jesus's death and resurrection were the most important events in history. It's no surprise that God would give us signs of his plans throughout Israel's history and prophets.
Jesus's story reveals God's incredible love for us. And throughout the Old Testament, we discover how incredibly thorough his plan for rescuing us was—now, we can all be reconciled to Him through the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus.
Among the dozens of prophecies proclaimed, fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled--such as the coming of Christ, one fulfilled prophecy that is recognised annually is the birth of Christ.
This is what happens when you copy paste blindly from another Christian fundie site without understanding OT. OT prophecies are about liberation of Israel and Jews, it's less to do with the Messiah and for the betterment of the whole world but all about the people of Israel (God's chosen people). The prophecies in the promised land of God still remains unfulfilled.
Heres a few:
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel. Isaiah 2:11-17, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9
Knowledge of God will fill the world. Isaiah 11:9, 45:23, 66:23, Jeremiah 31:33, Zechariah 3:9, 8:23, 14:9,16, Ezekiel 38:23, Psalm 86:9
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland Isaiah 11:12, 27:12-13, Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24, Deuteronomy 30:3
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness. Isaiah 51:11
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance. Zechariah 8:23
The Temple will be rebuilt. Micah 4:1, Ezekiel 40-42, Isaiah 2:2-3, Malachi 3:4, Zechariah 14:20-21, (Main reason why Israel to wage war in the Middle east)
and probably the most important one
World Peace: Isaiah 2:4, 11:6, 60:18 Micah 4:1-4, Hosea 2:20
etc etc
He didnt fulfill any of the any of the messianic prophecies, and then he died. There are 100's of other stuff in their too. I can provide a big list if you wish to.
This is why i call you a parrot, you basically have no understanding of anything. Copy pasting without understanding the subject matter in hand shows you are lacking in every aspect.
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Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Why don't you read the prophesies and fulfillments first? You could not have had time to digest all that.
You said ZERO, clearly, not zero. Possibly 100.
Wrong, on several counts.
First, the author himself
From wiki:
Even Christian scholars don't agree with him. I will explain why.
From your author above quoting Deut:
"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, 'Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die'" (Deuteronomy 18:15–16).
Note a PROPHET, which both the Muslims and Jews believe in. Rest is a Christian invention of reverse engineering. Jesus is not a prophet, but a God, hence whatever the author wrote above, based on this verse is a strawman.
Cause the first assumption of the author is wrong, hence the rest of the post is also wrong. A Messiah is NOT God (Yehwah). YWH specifically states that 'no one will see my face', in spirit or in person. Instead he will speak through prophets, hence Muslims and Jews argue Jesus is not Messiah. It's clear Christians are desperate to prove this narrative despite OT saying Messiah is not God or Son of God.
Also cause the Messiah is supposed to liberate Israel! that's the very foundation of OT. Without it the rest is invalid, how has israel been liberated?
If he didn't liberate Israel and Bring world peace, he is NOT A MESSIAH! it doesn't matter what he claims he did.. he is NOT a messiah.
It's like saying you are a FF but you are 170 cm, but you can play FF and play tall. You may as well, but you are not a FF. You don't fulfill the basic criteria of being a KPF, it doesn't matter how many goals you kick. You are not a KPF.
All the author did was reverse engineer the verses to suit his claim assuming Jesus is the Messiah.
None of the prophecies about Israel and God's chosen people been fulfilled! NONE.
And jesus was not a Messiah, he was God. So the article you posted is clearly wrong. Messiah =/= God.
Please show me where in OT it states that God will appear in human form? OT states a Messiah will appear, maybe you and the person you quoted need to know what a Messiah means in the first place?
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Let me explain more why you and your author is wrong.
The original idea of the Messiah was someone who would overthrow political oppressors. In Jesus' time that would have been the Romans. Since Jesus didn't overthrow the Romans, he failed to live up to messianic expectations.
However, early Christians developed a new messianic theology, where the messiah would save the world from sin and death. In that sense Jesus succeeded, at least from a Christian perspective but it got nothing to do with the OT, the Christians invented this, which the bloke you quoted banging on about.
The fact that there's not world peace right now is a big reason. And the fact that he died. He's not supposed to do that before the temple's rebuilt or we have a world of peace.
This is why Jews believe the Messiah is yet to come and he will come. Eventually.
The LAST 2 chapters in Maimonides’ Mishneh Torah outline the specifics of what the messiah is supposed to do, as well as some of what we can expect the messianic age to look like (there are more opinions about this second point). The Mishneh Torah is one of the most authoritative, and comprehensive codifications of Jewish Law in Jewish literature.
Here they are, brought in a compilation of topics related to the messiah which might also be of interest.
Why trust on the Christians on the interpretation of the OT? This was written before the NT. So the criteria is clear. Christians clearly made up the criteria to suit the OT narrative but still failed. Torah clearly states Messiah is not God, end of discussion.
And lastly the author is 100% wrong on ressuraction. Please state where in Torah or OT resurrections and sin is mentioned for the criteria or Messiah? this is a made up Christian **** on spot. Raising yourself from the dead doesn't make you the messiah, now you may ask why?
1. Jews don;t believe in human sacrifices.
2. Jews don't believe sin can be passed from one person to the other or something you born with (Original Sin).
3. The concept of Messiah dying for the sins was not the job of the prophecised Messiah like the author suggested.
4. The criteria set for the prochecised Messiah is in Torah (BEFORE JESUS was Born, in the 6th century BC) , which i listed above, no matter what the Christians say, is not going to change that.
5. Nothing that your author listed above, qualifies him as a Messiah or fulfilled promises, according to Torah.
Have another go at another copy paste Mr Parrot? This is why i am asking you to read, so that you can hold a conversation yourself without resorting to copy paste material, without having any idea what they are on about. It's clear, you are good at Googling and confirming your bias. As far as scriptural knowledge goes, it's no surprise, you literally know nothing about anything outside of your bog standard preaching booklets.
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but you ain't born agayiin Total Power, yeh ha! Don't bother with the sanctimoniousness doomsdayers. Like Roger Daltrey sang, "The hypnotised never lie".
So true mate! something i wonder why do i bother.
Oh look, I've also tried to have conversations with those indoctrinated fools in good faith but it is the most pointless thing I have ever, ever done. You may as well try and shove a camel through the eye of a needle!
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How is the virgin birth a sign given that nobody can verify it? If a claim can only be taken by faith, it isn't a sign.
It's like someone claiming they kicked a 200m goal when nobody was around to see it.
It's an old trick. Prophecies are written after the event, or alternatively the event is written to fill a preconceived list of prophecies. The writers of the gospels started with a list of prophecies and ticked them off one by one as they worked them into the script. It is just so obvious.
samoodan
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Re debating whether Jesus met the Jewish prophesies is kind of pointless. They've been doing it for centuries. I'd just say a couple of things from team Jesus:
- Jesus IS the temple. THat wasn't expected, but it's how it panned out (from a Christian perspective)
- Jesus was a conqueror. Not in his lifetime but his message became the main religion and philosophy of the known world (ROman perspective).
- All the first Christian were Jews. Christianity, is ultimately still a Jewish sect, that accepted gentiles.
If you really want to have a go, have a look at heir of David connection. That is a really important one I think, because it is part of God's covenant with David. The funny part is, when the genealogy links are listed in the gospels (Matthew and Luke), they are completely different. Not just in names, but also the numbers of generations. The Bible completely contradicts itself over those pages. Can't believe it made the final edit!
- Jesus IS the temple. THat wasn't expected, but it's how it panned out (from a Christian perspective)
- Jesus was a conqueror. Not in his lifetime but his message became the main religion and philosophy of the known world (ROman perspective).
- All the first Christian were Jews. Christianity, is ultimately still a Jewish sect, that accepted gentiles.
If you really want to have a go, have a look at heir of David connection. That is a really important one I think, because it is part of God's covenant with David. The funny part is, when the genealogy links are listed in the gospels (Matthew and Luke), they are completely different. Not just in names, but also the numbers of generations. The Bible completely contradicts itself over those pages. Can't believe it made the final edit!
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Its pretty simple, either we humans just made all this shit up or there is somehow some divine all powerful, all knowing entity that equally doesnt give two shits about our suffering that has orchestrated all of reality for its own entertainment.
Imma go with humans doing human things.
Imma go with humans doing human things.
I remember reading somewhere that the Roman head honcho was getting really pissed off with the "life of Brian" type scenario in that area, where a whole heap of groups were at each others throats as well as disturbing the peace in general so the Supreme Commander, I can't recall his name at the moment, ordered the various "scholars" of those sects/groups, to get together and write a manuscript in collaboration with each other which all of the sects could follow. Otherwise, he assured them, he would wipe them all out so nearly 100 years after the death of Jesus, these "scholars" got together and wrote what is now known as the Bible.
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The genealogy of Jesus Christ outlined in Matthew is clearly fictional and is little more than a theological construct (i.e largely if not wholly invented) rather than factual history. Matthew's is neatly arranged into three sets of fourteen which is very convenient.The first fourteen is from Abraham to David. The second fourteen spans the Davidic royal line, but omits several generations, such as three consecutive kings of Judah - Ahaziah, Jehoash and Amaziah. These three kings were seen as especially wicked, from the cursed line of Ahab through his daughter Athaliah to the third and fourth generation, so of course wouldn't want to be associated with the 'Messiah'. The Davidic line ends with "Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon". The last fourteen, which appears to span only thirteen generations, connects the father of Jesus, (Joseph) to Zerubbabel through a series of otherwise unknown names. Indeed there are remarkably few names for such a long period.
The total of 42 generations is achieved only by omitting several names, so the choice of three sets of fourteen is deliberate. Fourteen is twice seven symbolizing perfection and covenant, and is also the gematria (numerical value) of the name David.
Matthew and Luke also have vastly different genealogies. 55 generations from Abraham to Jesus in Luke and 42 (14.14.14 as I pointed out above) for Matthew. Did Matthew leave some of the ancestors of Jesus out? Their motive is also clear - the Gospel writers wanted to demonstrate that Jesus qualified as a Messiah partly because of his descent from King David (as per the so-called 'prophecy').
The Gospel writers invented 'fulfilled prophecies' for Jesus and it's clear the Gospels were theological constructs. As recorders of historical truth, they are spectacularly unreliable.
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Didn't the disciples throw Jesus up on a donkey and get him to do a lap of the Jerusalem Cricket Ground to fulfil one of the OT prophecies?
I have not heard that particular one before. But I think regardless of how it happened, the Christian Bible, and basic Christian doctrine is an amalgamation of at least two (maybe more) different groups who were originally antagonistic to each other. Paul the Apostle versus The Twelve seems to be the main dichotomy, but throw in John The Bapist in there somewhere as well
It's an accepted fact by modern scholars of Theology that the Bible was written between 90 and 100 years after the death of Jesus.
If I had the time, I'd research that which I presented earlier and has stuck in my memory to present a more detailed description of the characters involved and the exact time. What I am absolutely sure about is that the factions who were antagonistic towards each other were indeed "requested", to get together and collaborate on a manuscript that was accepted by all factions by the Roman client King at the time to quell the unrest between these various sects/factions which was an irritation to the governing body of that area.
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