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Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2
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I am not stupid enough to believe in dumb shit, sorry, in other words i am not gullible.
I read what you said, i am not saying Jesus didn't appear, are you drunk? i am saying it wasn't a physical ressuction, it was a spiritual one (consistent with the Jewish view). Your own verse destroys your own argument, way to own youself.
Here is a challenge Vdubs why don't you quote a historian/scholar who is not a christian apologist to support your view?
Vast majority of the scholars are with me and my interpretation and you will find the ones on your side are only christian apologists.
You have been duped brother, i hope you develop some critical thinking like i did!
Vast majority of the scholars are with me and my interpretation and you will find the ones on your side are only christian apologists.
You have been duped brother, i hope you develop some critical thinking like i did!
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Not sure where you're at tonight, spelling errors galore, and very fixated for an open minded non believer.
Jesus died, for our sins, and as was prophesied in many OT verses, rose from the dead, and appeared in bodily form to his apostles.
This is why we are Christians. This is what we call the Good News. You anti-theists say it can not happen, so therefore it did not happen. YOU WILL NEVER WIN THIS ARGUMENT against Christians who truly believe the Good News. It is what makes us tick as Christians.
According to Paul, in 1 Cor 15, when we die, it will be a spiritual resurrection. Time will tell.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Let us simply read the Bible. In all its magnitude. You can have as many non Christian interpretations as you like. The Good News is indeed the Good News, as I said above.
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1. I am not a 12 year old that comes to the internet for winning argument and you are supposedly 68 year old LOL.
2. I am here to to debate, discuss and see if you have any material to support your views and i have been disappointed.
3. Typos are cause of fat fingers, you need to grow up.
The emphasis of Jesus' physical immortal resurrection and deification was due to Gentile influence. See Dag Øistein Endsjø's Greek Resurrection Beliefs and the Success of Christianity and M. David Litwa's Iesus Deus: The Early Christian Depiction of Jesus as a Mediterranean God
I have given you heaps of resources to read and even challenged you to quote scholars, you came back with nothing!
well thank for coming then, you got nothing.
You and Christian apologists don't own the Bible, if this was a historical even, it can be verified through history. I have given christian interpretation which you refused to accept, the early day christian sects, Arians, Gnostics shared my view too, maybe you need to read some history?
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
No brother, I read the Bible. That is plenty. That is God's word to us. The best book ever written.
You are free to interpret the verses as it suits you, don't let me stop you.
Crazy fundies will always be crazy fundies.
But no historians and scholars are on your side.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
You start with quotes from the Bible, and make incorrect assertions and conclusions, and then mix it up with a bit of selective "history". I give you the Bible. That is all. If you do not have a need for coming to know God, and have no issue with sin in your life, peace to you. All I know is what I know, and your arguments do not dilute many years of faith and life experiences as a Christian.
Where have i mixed anything up? i stand by what i and all scholars say, there is no evidence of any physical resurrection. NONE. You are confused between Jesus appearing in flesh and in 'celestial' body. Even that has contradicting accounts.
You can keep your faith to yourself, i really am i not nterested in what your personal belief system is . I am discussing the Bible here and you have presented no evidence to prove your point.
Keep clutching that straw harder.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Every time you say that am I supposed to be threatened? When I reply with the fact that there are billions of believers, who must agree with me, you have your own slant on that too.
You said 'you have no authority on the bible'.
I am quoting people who dedicated their lives in studying it. No one actually agrees with you unless they are Christian apologists.
And yet you won't believe it cause it disproves your faith.
So be it, i am not here to change your belief system, no matter how shit it is.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
You start to discuss the Bible, but when you realise your points are flimsy, and disputable, you resort to your alternative explanations. You are seriously consistently trying to tell Christians that you don't believe in the true resurrection of Jesus, when this is absolutely fundamental for us. The verses above support what is said in the gospels, but your friend says that because it could not happen, it did not happen.
LOL
this is hilarious. I am asking for evidence of physical resurrection and you quoted verses where Paul CLEARLY made a disctinction between earthly body and celestial body. And i am the one who is making it filmsy? the whole physical rising of the dead was cause of the Gentile influence, even Mark makes no mention of the physical resurrection. It only happens in Gospels AFTER Mark.
You got to quit when you are behind.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Let us conclude then by agreeing with this?
There are perhaps 2 interpretations of Jesus ' resurrection.
1. A physical bodily resurrection and appearance to several followers
2. A spiritual, celestial resurrection, where followers believed He was there in spirit.
You support premise 2. Although that assumes you believe in Jesus.
I believe in 1.
Otherwise, why are you even debating this?
And I don't need to give you any evidence. You read the Bible. You have made your own conclusion based on...?
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That the physical resurrection of the body of Jesus actually occured is merely a matter of belief. You really have no knowledge of the veracity of the physcial resurrection. Even Paul didn't believe that the body of Jesus was physically resurrected from the dead. Paul had no knowledge that such an event had occurred.
It doesn’t matter how convinced you are; belief does not equal knowledge. Positive claims for knowing something occurred requires positive evidence. Extraordinary claims (and the bodily physical resurrection of the dead) requires extraordinary evidence, and that’s what I’d need to agree that your claim is true. The claim isn't just extraordinary; its impossible. Nowhere has anyone ever demonstrated satisfactorily that dead people can rise bodily from the truly dead.
You don't have any supporting evidence.
Knowledge of any event or occurence, such as the scientific fact of evolution can always be repeatedly tested for accuracy where mere beliefs often cannot be. No matter how positively you think you know it, if you can’t show that it actually occurred, then you don’t know that it did, and you shouldn’t say that you do. Nor would you if you really cared about the truth. Knowledge is demonstrable, measurable.
Faith is a matter of pretending to know what you know you really don't know, and that no one even can know, and which you merely believe - often for little good reason at all.
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- #9,467
That is just another subjective opinion. There are other works I much prefer.
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- #9,468
This is merely a belief arrived at by faith. I see little reason to accept your premise.
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
Agree.
If I was stuck somewhere, with only one book to keep me company for an extended time, the Bible would be my choice without a second thought.
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Vdubs
Hall of Famer
And what is written in both OT and NT (gospels).
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So? It wouldn't be mine.
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So? These are works of man. Why should I accept that these particular works of man are the truth? Wny not the Quran? Or the Vedas?
I am not going to accept physical 'resurrection' unless you show me 'celestial body' is the same as physical body.Why would Paul make a distinction between the 2 then? If flesh and bones is the same as spiritual body there wouldnt be a distinction in the first place.
I repeat he explicitly denies this is the case in 1 Cor 15:36 where he calls the Corinthians "fools" for believing that the resurrection will involve physical bodies and goes on to explain instead that "what is raised" are "spiritual/heavenly" bodies.
I have given plenty of evidence based on this, this was common Jewish belief back then, please refer to my older posts, resurrection was not uncommon.
Mark took it a step further said the tomb was empty, but doesn't talk about zombies walking into a town.
It's more Matt and Luke who talks about this, Paul makes no assertion of any empty tomb even.
Name one contemporaneous non-christian source that talks about an empty tomb?? Just one? We are looking at a major even of apparently 'fulfilled prophecies' and Messiah oh earth, yet you have no factual evidence outside of Gospel of this 'special event'? How is it even possible???
And lets assume Paul's claim was true, there was 500 eyewitness'? who were those people? first gospel after Paul's letters was Mark sheds no light on anything! NONE whatsoever. How does Paul know, there were '500 people' and not 350?? why doesn't he name them for people to verify?
In fact, were it not for that one passage in 1 Corinthians 15:5-8, the evidence for any appearances to the disciples themselves would be really weak. It's only in light of Paul's comments that we take the accounts in the Gospels and Acts more seriously. So, it pretty much all hangs on 1Co 15.
Was Paul lying? Maybe. He doesn't strike me as the most trustworthy fellow. Or perhaps there was some kernel of truth---say, that he felt the presence of Jesus---and then exaggerated it by making it sound like a visual appearance. The same can be said for his comments about Peter and James.
As i said, you have zero evidence to backup your claim.
That book might be 'remarkable' for you, for most people it's a great work of literature only and far far away from a book written by so called 'god'.
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Absolute NONSENSE! This is a lie which you have convinced yourself of. Please don't pretend to speak for the Jews. Jesus said he came to fulfill the prophecies, but he didn't end up fulfilling any, outside of claiming to be God (which he didn't outside of John, and John is extremely dodgy)
The believers in OT (aka the Jews) believes that Jesus in a man, simply put, no one outside of Christians (that even mainstream only) believe in your story. This is a fact, you can deny it all you want, if OT claims Jesus is god, why don't the Jews agree with you?! He was never god, never will be God outside of mainstream Christian interpretation of the apologists. You have continiously interpreted verse as it suits you but no Jew will agree with you on this one.
Both OT/Torah/Talmud confirms this and also confirms original sin is a pile of crap. So what OT prophecies??? The Jews do not consider Jesus as god cause he never fulfilled any of the prophecies. To name a few:
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel. Isaiah 2:11-17, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9
The Temple will be rebuilt. Micah 4:1, Ezekiel 40-42, Isaiah 2:2-3, Malachi 3:4, Zechariah 14:20-21,
World Peace: Isaiah 2:4, 11:6, 60:18 Micah 4:1-4, Hosea 2:20
Weapons of war will be destroyed. Ezekiel 39:9
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance. Zechariah 8:23
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel. Isaiah 52:13-53:5
etc etc.
The Jewish Testament talks of a military leader who will not die. Instead will usher in an eternal earthly Kingdom.
But yes lets believe in books written by anonymous authors, which can't be verified by anyone outside of the gospel and that even is full of contradiction. Because ' i have faith'. For example John was clearly a liar, there's a reason why Justin Martyr and early theologians didn't even mention John.
"I do not think that there is one word in the Johannine text that Jesus actually came close to saying."
Bishop J.S. Spong, (Liberating the Gospels, p178)
Essentially, John is mid-second century theology written to combat rival, ‘heretical’ theologies. The authors sought not to re-write a Jesus history – they already had several versions of that!
I am afraid it's really looking bleak for you. The more you try to argue, the more you end up digger a bigger hole for yourself. You got nothing outside of Christian apologists and selective verses of that one edition of the Bible namely the NT to support your 'claims'. You almost got no leg to stand on.
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You think the world revolves around you? I am not in dispute with your faith, your faith is your business, although it's absurd and illogical. You can have the Bible or the Quran or the book of Mormons for all i care about. The argument isn't about what you would choose to do.
It's a book written by men for men with a political purpose.
If the bible is accurate and whole in its entirety, how do you deal with the countless contradictions?
The conversation between Jesus and Pilate, for example.
The gospel of Matthew says one thing. The gospel of John says a completely different thing.
And they're NOT different points of view of the same event.
Both accounts are polar opposites of each other.
But you said 'i am happy' with this, well of course you are but for the rational minded folks around, this cannot be the book of god for something full of errors.
Some people are easily convinced i guess and at 68, there's no hope for you anymore.
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