Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

[Chief]

Continued in Part Two:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ask-a-christian-part-2.1295001/unread

 

[Roylion]

Why are there no inbetween species in existence now, yet we have all forms of apes and then man?

We have gone through this again and again. You simply don't know what you're talking about in regards to evolution. Heard of "common descent" in that "hard science" qualification you claim to have.

As I said there is overwhelming evidence that man evolved from earlier species of hominids, so to claim that man was formed by "God in his current state (aka Adam and Eve) is equally nonsensical.

You are overwhelmed by an evolutionary theory.

I understand it far better than you do.

I am overwhelmed by God- His power and creation,

Figment of man's imagination

 

[chelseacarlton]

It is your choice. Live for today only, any way that makes you happy, and see how that goes, or live here in peace with God and have the assurance of live with God for eternity .
Not a gunpoint at all, as you don't believe in eternity or heaven or hell, so need to get narky about it.

Do you mean “snarky” as opposed to “narky”?
You know I’m a snarky anti-theist, some might call me a militant atheist I they’d like, I’m proud to be either.
I can’t live in peace with the Easter bunny, Santa, unicorns, faeries or any other mythical creations from the human imagination, why would you want me to choose your imaginary character?
I have to live for today as there is no tomorrow until it becomes today, that a stupid concept, I plan for tomorrow, I have to, that’s just common sense mate.
It’s not that I don’t believe in heaven, hell etc, eternity is an entirely different concept to the other two.
I see no good reason and have never been presented with anything to change my mind on the concepts of the “heaven, hell” as actual places.
We are biological machines with a vast computer, predominantly made out of fat and water, sitting in a reasonably protective yet somehow very fragile bone casing, I slight knock and that computer ceases to function.
As Roylion has adequately already shown you, hell was a concept derived in Persia, taken by the Jews and built upon by a very physical geographical place in their homelands.
Neither place warrants me no fear nor favour, as I’ve very little time for concepts of the metaphysical or supernatural, present me with any evidence to the contrary and I’m more the happy to indulge you, but if you present anything out of the bible as evidence, you’ll be committing the grave and fallacious circular reasoning argument, to which I won’t be taking too kindly to.
Evidence away my christian brother..............

 

[Roylion]

ditto history- makes no difference to knowledge of God.

But it does illuminate the process by which man first invented and then developed the notion of "God", Satan, Heaven, Hell, good, evil etc., through Judaism and then Christianity. And also illuminates the process by which the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) was assembled and repeatedly edited over the centuries.

 

[Vdubs]

But it does illuminate the process by which man first invented and then developed the notion of "God", Satan, Heaven, Hell, good, evil etc., through Judaism and then Christianity. And also illuminates the process by which the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) was assembled and repeatedly edited over the centuries.

only if you believe "history" but not the Bible

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Of course it does. You may want to spend your entirety being confused about that concept. Meanwhile, you could accept that there is God who has created all things and get on with life in awae and in obedience to Him, which you already do indirectly anyway when you try and live peacefully in this world. Look back over your life and see if there have been periods of turmoil. If you have never had any, great. Watch that space anyway.
If you have never been a believer, interesting. Keep searching.
If you have, like some others here, but think you can do it better solo, your choice. You can always go your own way. But, there may be implications.

What’s random about us? Been evolving over millions of years. Far from random. Christianity was the ultimate conspiracy theory bs. You have the same beliefs born of ignorance 2000 years ago. Isn’t it time we humans moved on? We have a limited time here, don’t waste your time in myth.

 

[Gethelred]

How do you know man himself did not create the viruses? And if God did, which is possible, what is the message in that for you? That is why I came to this thread in the first place.

Either God created all things, or he didn't. Which is it?

 

[Gethelred]

only if you believe "history" but not the Bible

History is not a process of belief; it is a process by which the past is pieced together as wholly and as correctly as possible, by compiling as much evidence for each and every viewpoint as can be obtained and trying to put it all together. Describing history as a process of 'belief' portrays a profound misunderstanding of how history is 'created'/compiled, and is a titanic problem with how politics are understood in this country.

History is no more static than science is. There are things that are so broadly understood to be historical facts due to the overwhelming weight of evidence that supports the current conclusions, but were such a cavalcade of new evidence come to light to support an alternative conclusion these facts would either be supported, altered or rejected. Because that's how the scientific process works, whether applied to history - as is the way history has been done since the study of it became a proper academic discipline - or science.

 

[Roylion]

only if you believe "history" but not the Bible

Are you familiar with the word "evidence"?

For example in the case of Julius Caesar, we have plenty of evidence to not only confirm his existance but also his actions.

We know what Caesar looked like from contemporary portraits (the latest discovered is a white marble bust of Julius Caesar, believed to be only the sixth contemporary portrait of its kind discovered on a Mediterranean island in 2003 on Pantelleria, situated between Sicily and Africa and known by the Romans as Cossyra).

We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his contemporary friends and his contemporary enemies. These enemies include Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC) who, while not an actual eye-witness to Caesar's murder, certainly knew and supported many of the assassins, after the event. He also wrote the "Philippics" which called on the Senate to support Caesar's great nephew Octavian against Mark Antony. Cicero's "Second Phillipics" was an eulogy of Caesar's conquest of Gaul. The original text of 58 speeches by Cicero survive to this day, as do over 800 letters.

Caesar is also mentioned in the poetry of Callust (another contemporary and enemy). Caesar's own written account of this war, 'De Bello Gallico', still survives also. Two other contemporary letters (Duae epistolae de republica ordinanda), which are letters of political counsel and advice addressed to Caesar, and an attack upon Cicero (Invectiva or Declamatio in Ciceronem), are traditionally thought to have been written by Caesar's contemporary the historian Caius Sallust (86-34 BC) tribune, provincial governor and supporter of Caesar. However those works may have come from the pen of the rhetorician Marcus Porcius Latro (another contemporary of Caesar). However it's virtually certain that the works were written by a contemporary of Caesar and do mention Caesar.

Of Cicero's books, six on rhetoric have survived, as well as parts of eight books on philosophy. Cornelius Nepos (c100-24): "Life of Atticus" another contemporary also mentions Caesar. Gaius Valerius Catullus, yet another contemporary (c84-54 BC): "Carmina" mentions Caesar. Gaius Asinius Pollio (76 BC-4 AD), another comtemporary, was an ally of Caesar and founder of the first public library in Rome. He was a source used by Plutarch who wrote an account of Caesar's life. We also have a contemporary account of the eulogy delivered at Caesar's funeral by Marcus Antonius (Antony) as well as a contemporary coin showing Marcus Antonius in mourning for the death of Caesar. Then there's Aulus Hirtius, another contemporary of Caesar who many scholars consider to be the author of the eighth book of Caesar's Gallic Wars and perhaps the author of 'Bellum Alexandrinum', a work that continues Caesar's commentary on the civil war.

Caesar minted coins during his military campaigns and his coins were used in Rome from 49-44 BC.

Numismatists have dated the denarius pictured below to February-March 44 BC when Julius Caesar became dictator perpetuo ("dictator for life"). The coins clearly minted in honour of that event as Caesar displays his new title. Coins such as this (and we have plenty of examples of these coins) clearly support the premise that Gaius Julius Caesar was a historical figure.

Nicolaus of Damascus born in 64 BC wrote a Life of Augustus (Bios Kaisaros) and actually met Augustus, which was completed after the death of the emperor in AD 14, when Nicolaus was 78, which mentions Julius Caesar, who was assassinated in 44 BC when Nicolaus was roughly 20. Nicolaus of Damascus was also the tutor of the children of Mark Antony and Cleopatra (the mistress of Caesar and mother of his son) and the intimate friend of Herod the Great.

So in light of all the evidence we are fairly certain of Julius Caesar's role in history. What woud you like to know about the Bible and how it relates to archaeology.

 

[Evolved1]

Are you familiar with the word "evidence"?

For example in the case of Julius Caesar, we have plenty of evidence to not only confirm his existance but also his actions.

We know what Caesar looked like from contemporary portraits (the latest discovered is a white marble bust of Julius Caesar, believed to be only the sixth contemporary portrait of its kind discovered on a Mediterranean island in 2003 on Pantelleria, situated between Sicily and Africa and known by the Romans as Cossyra).

We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his contemporary friends and his contemporary enemies. These enemies include Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC) who, while not an actual eye-witness to Caesar's murder, certainly knew and supported many of the assassins, after the event. He also wrote the "Philippics" which called on the Senate to support Caesar's great nephew Octavian against Mark Antony. Cicero's "Second Phillipics" was an eulogy of Caesar's conquest of Gaul. The original text of 58 speeches by Cicero survive to this day, as do over 800 letters.

Caesar is also mentioned in the poetry of Callust (another contemporary and enemy). Caesar's own written account of this war, 'De Bello Gallico', still survives also. Two other contemporary letters (Duae epistolae de republica ordinanda), which are letters of political counsel and advice addressed to Caesar, and an attack upon Cicero (Invectiva or Declamatio in Ciceronem), are traditionally thought to have been written by Caesar's contemporary the historian Caius Sallust (86-34 BC) tribune, provincial governor and supporter of Caesar. However those works may have come from the pen of the rhetorician Marcus Porcius Latro (another contemporary of Caesar). However it's virtually certain that the works were written by a contemporary of Caesar and do mention Caesar.

Of Cicero's books, six on rhetoric have survived, as well as parts of eight books on philosophy. Cornelius Nepos (c100-24): "Life of Atticus" another contemporary also mentions Caesar. Gaius Valerius Catullus, yet another contemporary (c84-54 BC): "Carmina" mentions Caesar. Gaius Asinius Pollio (76 BC-4 AD), another comtemporary, was an ally of Caesar and founder of the first public library in Rome. He was a source used by Plutarch who wrote an account of Caesar's life. We also have a contemporary account of the eulogy delivered at Caesar's funeral by Marcus Antonius (Antony) as well as a contemporary coin showing Marcus Antonius in mourning for the death of Caesar. Then there's Aulus Hirtius, another contemporary of Caesar who many scholars consider to be the author of the eighth book of Caesar's Gallic Wars and perhaps the author of 'Bellum Alexandrinum', a work that continues Caesar's commentary on the civil war.

Caesar minted coins during his military campaigns and his coins were used in Rome from 49-44 BC.

Numismatists have dated the denarius pictured below to February-March 44 BC when Julius Caesar became dictator perpetuo ("dictator for life"). The coins clearly minted in honour of that event as Caesar displays his new title. Coins such as this (and we have plenty of examples of these coins) clearly support the premise that Gaius Julius Caesar was a historical figure.

Nicolaus of Damascus born in 64 BC wrote a Life of Augustus (Bios Kaisaros) and actually met Augustus, which was completed after the death of the emperor in AD 14, when Nicolaus was 78, which mentions Julius Caesar, who was assassinated in 44 BC when Nicolaus was roughly 20. Nicolaus of Damascus was also the tutor of the children of Mark Antony and Cleopatra (the mistress of Caesar and mother of his son) and the intimate friend of Herod the Great.

So in light of all the evidence we are fairly certain of Julius Caesar's role in history. What woud you like to know about the Bible and how it relates to archaeology.

I can't find any of that in the bible so it must be fake news!

 

[Vdubs]

Either God created all things, or he didn't. Which is it?

He did. All things. But man's selfishness and moral choices has allowed viruses, which are normally a natural entity that allows life to flourish, to become dangerous-the cause is a basic disconnect. Our selfishness leads to things going wrong in the environment. God has allowed this to continue on, but free will and our capacity to do what we do, means God will not necessarily step in. He has given men and women the intelligence to help us through the pandemics by our ability to produce vaccines.. My question was about the often reported Chinese influence on Covid 19, but that is mischievous.

God allowing pandemics, and all other forms of pain and suffering, alerts us to danger, and tests our character. We find out who we are at times of extreme pain and suffering. At times like that, people can discover the sufficiency of God.

 

[Gethelred]

He did.All things. But man's selfishness and moral choices has allowed viruses which are normally a natural entity that allows life to flourish, has cause a basic disconnect. Our selfishness leads to things going wrong in the environment. God has allowed this to continue on, but free will and our capacity to do what we do, means God will not necessarily step in. He has given men and women the intelligence to help us through the pandemics by our ability to produce vaccines.. My question was about the often reported Chinese influence on Covid 19, but that is mischievous

If he created all things, then he created the virus. Either don't speak in absolute terms, or deal with the consequences of those absolutes.

 

[Roylion]

He did. All things. But man's selfishness and moral choices has allowed viruses, which are normally a natural entity that allows life to flourish, to become dangerous-the cause is a basic disconnect.

This is complete and utter rubbish.

 

[Gethelred]

God allowing pandemics, and all other forms of pain and suffering, alerts us to danger, and tests our character. We find out who we are at times of extreme pain and suffering. At times like that, people can discover the sufficiency of God.

Or, they observe his culpability in allowing them to depart from a conscious state via suffering, and forcing pain on their loved ones for no reason other than to 'test' them.

Is subjecting people to pain and threatening them with death truly an acceptable method for you? Perhaps you should look into the philosophy of Marquis De Sade, might be right up your alley.

Could be, you're one of us nihilists after all, just with moralistic wallpaper.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

He did. All things. But man's selfishness and moral choices has allowed viruses, which are normally a natural entity that allows life to flourish, to become dangerous-the cause is a basic disconnect. Our selfishness leads to things going wrong in the environment. God has allowed this to continue on, but free will and our capacity to do what we do, means God will not necessarily step in. He has given men and women the intelligence to help us through the pandemics by our ability to produce vaccines.. My question was about the often reported Chinese influence on Covid 19, but that is mischievous.

God allowing pandemics, and all other forms of pain and suffering, alerts us to danger, and tests our character. We find out who we are at times of extreme pain and suffering. At times like that, people can discover the sufficiency of God.

Holy s**t! I call bs that you studied science

 

[Vdubs]

If he created all things, then he created the virus. Either don't speak in absolute terms, or deal with the consequences of those absolutes.

I believe He created viruses . You replied before I could finish my edit.

 

[Vdubs]

Or, they observe his culpability in allowing them to depart from a conscious state via suffering, and forcing pain on their loved ones for no reason other than to 'test' them.

Is subjecting people to pain and threatening them with death truly an acceptable method for you? Perhaps you should look into the philosophy of Marquis De Sade, might be right up your alley.

Could be, you're one of us nihilists after all, just with moralistic wallpaper.

There is nothing sadistic about acknowledging the actual reality of what we all experience in this fallen world. God allows suffering.Tell me your explanation now given that you do not believe in God.
Evolution gone awry?

 

[Gethelred]

There is nothing sadistic about acknowledging the actual reality of what we all experience in this fallen world.

Seriously, give De Sade a try. He really would be riiiight up your alley.

God allows suffering.Tell me your explanation now given that you do not believe in God.
Evolution gone awry?

Evolution at work.

 

[Doctor B]

GOD is the creator of ALL things, including the planets, and any life thereon.

Why did god create cancer, malaria, alzheimers, MS, MND, parkinsons, CAD etc?

 

[Roylion]

Seriously, give De Sade a try. He really would be riiiight up your alley.

"I think that if there were a God, there would be less evil on this earth. I believe that if evil exists here below, then either it was willed by God or it was beyond His powers to prevent it. Now I cannot bring myself to fear a God who is either spiteful or weak. I defy Him without fear and care not a fig for his thunderbolts."

Marquis de Sade

 

[Gethelred]

"I think that if there were a God, there would be less evil on this earth. I believe that if evil exists here below, then either it was willed by God or it was beyond His powers to prevent it. Now I cannot bring myself to fear a God who is either spiteful or weak. I defy Him without fear and care not a fig for his thunderbolts."

Marquis de Sade

That's the bit he'd object to. I was thinking more about this stuff:

Destruction, hence like creation, is one of Nature's mandates.

But I really don't think he'd get past De Sade's profound dislike of religion and deliberate blasphemy.

 

[M Malice]

There is nothing sadistic about acknowledging the actual reality of what we all experience in this fallen world. God allows suffering.Tell me your explanation now given that you do not believe in God.
Evolution gone awry?

There is no explanation, nature/evolution just is, really bad s**t happens.

There is no grand galactic meaning to your or my life, any purpose is your individual purpose eg. family/connection/friendship/contentment/thirst for knowledge all the way down to purely physical pursuits like fitness and the enjoyment of watching your team play.

Hopefully the human race eventually evolves to be a more compassionate empathetic race, I certainly know I wont be around to see it.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

GOD is the creator of ALL things, including the planets, and any life thereon.

What's his excuse for the Leyland P76?

 

[Vdubs]

There is no explanation, nature/evolution just is, really bad sh*t happens.

Hopefully the human race eventually evolves to be a more compassionate empathetic race, I certainly know I wont be around to see it.

not on current evidence

 

[M Malice]

not on current evidence

As a collective I agree, it will take eons, but on an individual basis the vast majority of people I associate with are empathetic good people.

 

[twotooto]

I don't how anyone can simultaneously espouse and laud the 'scientific process' yet fully advocate the existence of their god and keep a straight face. Must be some interesting mental gymnastics going on there?