Player Watch Ben Crocker (Delisted 2019, Pies VFL 2024)

[sr36]

The way we deliver ball into the forwards, use it in the forwards, defend when it turns over are all big issues. Lets wait and see what happens at the G. Hoping we can put it down to fatigue post WCE win but think thats optimistic.

Delivery - you said it.


Game is very simple.
Get ball.
Do good things with it.
Rinse, repeat.

Delivery poor, crowded. Won’t be sustainable.

There's nowhere to deliver it. With Crocker and Mayne down there, defenders can play 15 metres off them and still have them covered. You can't seperate the defenders, create space and hit a target if your forwards are too slow and not good enough for the defenders to man up on.

 

[Bussie]

Does anyone think what's happening in the family side of things for Ben are affecting his on-field performance?
I wouldn't mind the idea of de-listing him and re-listing as a rookie and letting him focus on his family first. Huge responsibility at his age, could easily be affecting his mental status.
To be fair, I think he's done well to make it to the senior side this year.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

There's nowhere to deliver it. With Crocker and Mayne down there, defenders can play 15 metres off them and still have them covered. You can't seperate the defenders, create space and hit a target if your forwards are too slow and not good enough for the defenders to man up on.

Actually the game against us is now our opponents squashing us; giving no space.

 

[sr36]

Actually the game against us is now our opponents squashing us; giving no space.

And if we play a couple of slow forwards who offer little other threat- Crocker and Mayne, it makes it really easy to take that space away.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

And if we play a couple of slow forwards who offer little other threat- Crocker and Mayne, it makes it really easy to take that space away.

All true I guess.

Injuries have given us a team of Crocker, Appelby, Quaynor all newish meat. Even Brown and Sier are newish.

We’ll get there.


(Maybe, hopefully)

 

[sr36]

All true I guess.

Injuries have given us a team of Crocker, Appelby, Quaynor all newish meat. Even Brown and Sier are newish.

We’ll get there.


(Maybe, hopefully)

Injuries haven't forced Bucks to go back to using Mayne as a defensive forward. Keep Mayne on the wing and rotate Sidey through there forward 50. A defensive forward just enables his opponent positioning autonomy. It allows his opponent to play like Maxwell without the negative repercussion of us having a loose man elsewhere.

 

[Rorzza]

I thought Crocker worked hard and presented well Saturday. Doesn't have the speed to get separation which means the majority of his marks are under pressure. Unfortunately doesn't have sticky hands either which would compensate his lack of speed. Still, got enough opportunity to kick two goals on the week end, just frustrating to watch.

 

[Ugene41]

There's nowhere to deliver it. With Crocker and Mayne down there, defenders can play 15 metres off them and still have them covered. You can't seperate the defenders, create space and hit a target if your forwards are too slow and not good enough for the defenders to man up on.

Yep our forward line worked last year because every forward was dangerous including the swoop squad. Seems like we're going back to the days of Blair and Goldsack as defensive forwards. Still rather Blair than Crocker though... And I despised seeing Blair in the side.

 

[Anzacday]

I thought Crocker worked hard and presented well Saturday.

He does.
Just can’t take an overhead mark to save himself.

 

[jackcass]

I'll cop it for this, but I'd say he was below medium talent. Excellent athlete who read it well and was as hard as teak, but limited skills, struggled one on one, which is why we always tried to play him loose man and lacked composure - he was the king of blind hacks out of defence. We were so tightly structured in those days that he got away with a lot of his blind bombs because teammates positioning was known. I'd go as far as saying that he timed his career perfectly. He was a very good player for the time, but he'd struggle with this era of zone presses as he did once other teams copied our 2010-11 system, because he lacked the time and awareness to make decisions.

I agree. Maxy was a good ordinary footballer who got the absolute best out of his abilities. It's not a knock on him or his achievements, just an acknowledgement that he was a limited footballer.

 

[jackcass]

The way we deliver ball into the forwards, use it in the forwards, defend when it turns over are all big issues. Lets wait and see what happens at the G. Hoping we can put it down to fatigue post WCE win but think that's optimistic.

I think it's more a chemistry and cohesion thing. So many continual changes week to week that we've seen a drop off in confidence. Players lose confidence and their work rate drops off meaning they aren't playing with dare and providing the downfield options. Players lose confidence and they become risk averse so they stop taking the offensive options that present, preferring instead to look for the safer sideways option. Both of which then lead to the slow ball movement we're seeing. People bang on about our changed game plan but I doubt it has changed 1 iota, it's the on-field execution that has gone to shoit.

 

[sr36]

Players lose confidence and they become risk averse so they stop taking the offensive options that present, preferring instead to look for the safer sideways option. Both of which then lead to the slow ball movement we're seeing. People bang on about our changed game plan but I doubt it has changed 1 iota, it's the on-field execution that has gone to shoit.

Last fortnight we've looked to get our handball and running game back. May be true (I doubt it though) that the slow ball movement and changed game style wasn't a plan, but if true it took an inexcusable 15 weeks to address it.

 

[jackcass]

Last fortnight we've looked to get our handball and running game back. May be true (I doubt it though) that the slow ball movement and changed game style wasn't a plan, but if true it took an inexcusable 15 weeks to address it.

We've been struggling all season with talent alone allowing us to win ugly all too frequently.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I think it's more a chemistry and cohesion thing. So many continual changes week to week that we've seen a drop off in confidence.

I’m on board with this. As I said elsewhere, 4 changes in a week, unless it’s to recall four guns, is a big negative to your team’s chances. It’s disruptive, players aren’t used to playing together, guys are often coming in rusty or underdone, and players don’t play predictably for one another.

If you’re in defense and you get hands on the ball, you want to know where the help is. If you have multiple forced changes every week, that person could be anywhere. Ditto zoning off to spoil as a third man up; it just doesn’t happen as smoothly and seamlessly when the defenders haven’t played together week in, week out. Players get anxious and tend to look after their direct opponent first and foremost.

 

[sr36]

We've been struggling all season with talent alone allowing us to win ugly all too frequently.

Second half of the season injuries have hurt, but in the first half, it's crystal clear to me that we shifted from being a team that scored heavily off a turnover by running in a wave, linking up by hands and getting it quickly into an open forward line. We became a team that on a turnover spread and looked to be used as a hit up short pass and thus moved the ball slowly into a congested forward line.

If that change wasn't the result of coaching, not addressing it surely was. We seem to have tried to address it the last couple of weeks, but not having played like that for so long has resulted in us being really sloppy by hand. Plus we currently have too many injuries to our forwards to take advantage of quick entries.

 

[jackcass]

Second half of the season injuries have hurt, but in the first half, it's crystal clear to me that we shifted from being a team that scored heavily off a turnover by running in a wave, linking up by hands and getting it quickly into an open forward line. We became a team that on a turnover spread and looked to be used as a hit up short pass and thus moved the ball slowly into a congested forward line.

If that change wasn't the result of coaching, not addressing it surely was. We seem to have tried to address it the last couple of weeks, but not having played like that for so long has resulted in us being really sloppy by hand. Plus we currently have too many injuries to our forwards to take advantage of quick entries.

I think over the pre-season there was a definite focus on ball retention and our early season form may well have been about finding the balance between that and all out offense. That said, I don't think we've been as good in the clearances this year in terms of the quality of them. Some of that may have been Beams re-acclimatizing within the group but I think our delayed start to the preseason was the bigger issue. Losing players regularly only compounds it.

 

[sr36]

I think over the pre-season there was a definite focus on ball retention and our early season form may well have been about finding the balance between that and all out offense. That said, I don't think we've been as good in the clearances this year in terms of the quality of them. Some of that may have been Beams re-acclimatizing within the group but I think our delayed start to the preseason was the bigger issue. Losing players regularly only compounds it.

This is what gets me. After the Grand Final, Bucks (I think correctly) identified that we lost it due to losing our dare in the second half and thus the ball got trapped in our defensive end. So over summer, we go away and work on moving the ball more cautiously from the back half? It was bizarre. And our scores from turnovers have been non existent as a result.

 

[Buckley is my hero]

I agree. Maxy was a good ordinary footballer who got the absolute best out of his abilities. It's not a knock on him or his achievements, just an acknowledgement that he was a limited footballer.

Don't agree at all with what you say. Have a close look at the first 2010 GF. With Maxy we live another day. Without Maxy no premiership. Simple as that. Premierships aren't won by by players of limited ability.

 

[jackcass]

This is what gets me. After the Grand Final, Bucks (I think correctly) identified that we lost it due to losing our dare in the second half and thus the ball got trapped in our defensive end. So over summer, we go away and work on moving the ball more cautiously from the back half? It was bizarre. And our scores from turnovers have been non existent as a result.

No, it was never about stopping transition dead or being overly cautious. The Tigers game was the 1 time this year when they've effectively moved the footy back and forth maintaining possession but even in that game it was done to open space and allow that quick clean transition into F50. The losing the dare is more about not being willing to pull the trigger when you open up those quick transition opportunities or being too slow to decide either way. They're different things. Every team uses some form of sideways movement to initiate transition. It's how well you do it in terms of speed and the efficacy of your disposal that is the key. The work over summer was (from what I can garner) more about improving skills so we don't turn the footy over as often or burn those transition opportunities turning them into stoppages.

 

[jackcass]

Don't agree at all with what you say. Have a close look at the first 2010 GF. With Maxy we live another day. Without Maxy no premiership. Simple as that. Premierships aren't won by by players of limited ability.

Maxy played more than 200 games across 10 - 11 seasons at the club, littered with more than a few where he played a critical role in the outcomes. But he was generally playing as a loose intercept defender in all those games. That would be just about the easiest position on the footy field to play. How many games of equal standard did he play where he was asked to actually be accountable for an opponent? I can recall 1 where he was asked to play as a midfield tagger but there aren't too many others that spring to mind. I'd argue 2009-2012 were his peak years but again that coincided with better on-field performances which also supported that loose defender role. As I say, a good ordinary footballer who got the most out of limited skills. His main strengths weren't about his footy skills, but his leadership.

 

[sr36]

No, it was never about stopping transition dead or being overly cautious. The Tigers game was the 1 time this year when they've effectively moved the footy back and forth maintaining possession but even in that game it was done to open space and allow that quick clean transition into F50. The losing the dare is more about not being willing to pull the trigger when you open up those quick transition opportunities or being too slow to decide either way. They're different things. Every team uses some form of sideways movement to initiate transition. It's how well you do it in terms of speed and the efficacy of your disposal that is the key. The work over summer was (from what I can garner) more about improving skills so we don't turn the footy over as often or burn those transition opportunities turning them into stoppages.

I'd argue that quick transition opportunities don't just magically open up, they're the product of your running patterns. Our linking mids stopped running in a swarm looking for handballs and run and carry and started looking to drop into holes forward of the ball to receive kicks. Our strength was our swarm, but we broke it up. This year that's been Collingwoods brand of transition and it just doesn't suit our list. The last fortnight we've tried to get back to last years brand with blokes running past to receive handballs, hopefully we can get it right in time to challenge.

 

[jackcass]

I'd argue that quick transition opportunities don't just magically open up, they're the product of your running patterns. Our linking mids stopped running in a swarm looking for handballs and run and carry and started looking to drop into holes forward of the ball to receive kicks. This year that's been Collingwoods brand of transition and it just doesn't suit our list. The last fortnight we've tried to get back to last years brand with blokes running past to receive handballs, hopefully we can get it right in time to challenge.

I've never suggested that those opportunities magically appear and I'd earlier highlighted work rate as an issue.

 

[sr36]

I've never suggested that those opportunities magically appear and I'd earlier highlighted work rate as an issue.

Treloar and others areworking harder than ever in transition. But he's working to drop into holes to receive marks forward of the ball rather than working to run in a group to receive handballs. It is a significant strategy change that just hasn't worked and was stubbornly persisted with for too long.

 

[jackcass]

Treloar and others areworking harder than ever in transition. But he's working to drop into holes to receive marks forward of the ball rather than working to run in a group to receive handballs. It is a significant strategy change that just hasn't worked and was stubbornly persisted with for too long.

Our midfield doesn't offer anywhere near enough 2 way run (and that they do offer is at a dawdle), and then seeks easy over the top passes when the defense saves their arse's, and you think that's the game plan? It's nothing but work rate and execution which I've been saying all year.

 

[sr36]

Our midfield doesn't offer anywhere near enough 2 way run (and that they do offer is at a dawdle), and then seeks easy over the top passes when the defense saves their arse's, and you think that's the game plan? It's nothing but work rate and execution which I've been saying all year.

I'd probably say something similar if I wasn't willing to question the coaching. We went from someone running past trying to receive a handball every time there was a mark to it not occurring at all but instead players spreading to receive a kick. If it wasn't a strategy change, it was awful coaching to allow it to occur for 15 weeks. Thankfully they've finally realised the folly and are back to trying to run the footy. It'll be interesting to see if they put it on hold for Richmond.