Best Team to be playing to win a flag

[MarkG]

In 2016 we were able to blood far more youngsters than normal due to many of our best players being suspended. And some youngsters have become very good players such as Walla, Fantasia, Parish, McKenna and others.

Some of these guys such as Walla and McKenna may have never made AFL had they not been given his opportunity during 2016

In 2017 we have put ourselves in a position to play finals. Winning the flag is a remote possibility.

In 2018 we may be in a position to have a real crack at the flag. What players should be in our team at the moment to achieve that flag.

We have players in the team that are aging such as Baguley 30, Kelly 33, Watson 32 and Goddard 32. Goddard has stated that he wants to play in 2018 and potentially beyond.

We also have experienced players in the VFL such as Myers 28, Stanton 31, Hocking 29, Luey 29.

Then we have a group of potential young stars such as Francis, Ridley, Begley, Laverde, Redman and others. Should we be blooding them to get the experience required to win a flag now rather than having older players in the seniors keeping them in the VFL?

 

[ghostdog]

In 2016 we were able to blood far more youngsters than normal due to many of our best players being suspended. And some youngsters have become very good players such as Walla, Fantasia, Parish, McKenna and others.

Some of these guys such as Walla and McKenna may have never made AFL had they not been given his opportunity during 2016

In 2017 we have put ourselves in a position to play finals. Winning the flag is a remote possibility.

In 2018 we may be in a position to have a real crack at the flag. What players should be in our team at the moment to achieve that flag.

We have players in the team that are aging such as Baguley 30, Kelly 33, Watson 32 and Goddard 32. Goddard has stated that he wants to play in 2018 and potentially beyond.

We also have experienced players in the VFL such as Myers 28, Stanton 31, Hocking 29, Luey 29.

Then we have a group of potential young stars such as Francis, Ridley, Begley, Laverde, Redman and others. Should we be blooding them to get the experience required to win a flag now rather than having older players in the seniors keeping them in the VFL?

The bolded part is why other clubs should recognise and respect the evil genius of DankenHird. Soon they'll all be sacrificing a year by putting their stars on ice for a season and playing the kids. Then the following season, wowee!

Seriousness, I reckon Hurley, Hooker, Stewart, Fanta, Walla, Green/Begley (depending on time/performance in the 1s), Zerrett, Zaka, Heppell, Goddard, Daniher, McGrath, McKenna, Ambrose, Colyer, Myers, Hartley, TBell, Bags

Add ring-ins next year in place of Watson, Kelly and Stanton.

 

[Laverde2Smack]

In all likelihood out of all the players you listed only Goddard will be in our best team next year. It is not like older guys are going to be keeping the next tier out of the team.

Playing them this season and playing finals will do more for our chances moving forward.

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[ant555]

This has already been asked but my view is you do not gift players games for the sake of development. has to be a certain standard met.

To say Walla would never have made AFL if the events of 2016 where different is simply not true IMO. He may have played VFL early but given the form he showed he would have been in the side sooner rather than later.

McKenna would have been in the same boat. Most likely have got games later in the year.

Parish would have been good enough anyway.

You mention getting games into Francis, well they have a plan with him. He has had a couple of shots to see what level is required. Currently he is on a slow build up to get his body right.

Ridley has only just come back from injury. Well behind the level in the fitness stakes.

Begley is getting close but needed the time in the VFL to build form and fitness.

Laverde. Injured. Has missed too much footy for him to be in the frame this year.

Redman has been ordinary this year and you can not reward ordinary.

McGrath has shown if you are good enough you will play, as did Z Merrett before him and Joe as well. Playing 17 games last year did not make Langford the complete player this year. The best way forward is reward for reaching certain standards, does not have to be 100% AFL standard but a team standard where most of the issues the coaches want to see worked on have improved.

 

[boncer34]

St Kilda

 

[BrunoV]

I think I ultimately agree with ant555 but coming at it from a slightly different angle.

The Sydney game showed that we've basically got the system and every part of the ground other than the midfield operating at a level to be a real chance. What is being glossed over is that Sydney controlled the way that game was being played for a vast majority of the time. Just because we are capable of carving our way through a defensive press doesn't change the reality that we are still being dictated to by an opposition. If Sydney had kicked accurately we would not have been in a position to throw that game away.

If we cannot control or break even in the midfield battle an opposition will always be able to dictate terms and I'm not sure that you can win premierships that way. We currently concede too many inside 50s and too many scores - we're reliant on the inefficiency of a quality opponent to stay in a game. The only way to address this problem without hurting the scoring power that we have developed, and which will make us a contender, is to win the midfield contest.

It can change very quickly over the next twelve months (i.e. by this time next year) if we can trade in a quality clearance winning midfielder and even free agent or two (if they are available). More importantly, I think we've got two or three players who will be developed into the midfielders we need but I don't think that the ultimate goal is made any more likely by forcing the issue with these players.

Langford is now in the team but still too immature physically, he needs another huge and uninterrupted pre-season. Begley is building towards a spot in the team and is probably only just weeks away but he's not even playing midfield at the moment and what he would need more than anything is a monster and uninterrupted pre-season. The best thing for Laverde at this stage might be to play him in the seconds with the aim of giving him enough games to qualify for finals - he should probably play the most amount of games possible as opposed to worrying about AFL footy this year.

Francis, Ridley and Redman are undoubtedly more talented than some players that we have in the side at the moment but the players they could replace are part of the system which is already making up for the weak midfield (whether it is forward or back). Francis and Redman have been inconsistent at best in the VFL (as opposed to Begley and Langford who have been consistently good) and Ridley is two and a half games into the season as a third tall defender/half back. These players need to force out an incumbent before I see the value in their being selected as I don't think that their forced inclusion gets us any closer to a flag.

 

[bombreys]

My only real concern is our apparent hesitancy to give the kids a chance. With our upcoming retirees/delistings, if there's a few more unexpected players that leave, we can't have our depth being a bunch of kids with zero AFL experience. Would really like to see us give one or two a go sooner rather than later.

 

[JayJ20]

We play our best side every game, whether they are young or old. An important part of a rebuild is building a successful culture.

If a senior player doesn't pull their weight and a younger player has the hunger, then they will replace them in the seniors. If their performance doesn't demand a senior spot, then they will continue developing in the VFL.

McKenna is a prime example of that. He wasn't considered a best 22 player at the start of the year and didn't exactly put it all together last year. He took his opportunity with both hands this year and hasn't looked back.

Woosha is doing exactly what we need. We now have a competitive core of youngsters like Langford and Parish that know a spot in the seniors is earned.

I think some of us are too focused on our 2016 season with the level of youngsters we developed. That's not the norm. It was in exceptional circumstances and we only won 3 games for the year. That was an opportunity that presented, not an opportunity that we wanted

 

[Ambrosia]

I agree that we don't want to be gifting games but when it's clear we aren't winning a premiership this season I don't see why we are playing a known sub par AFL player in Howlett.

 

[blitzer]

I agree that we don't want to be gifting games but when it's clear we aren't winning a premiership this season I don't see why we are playing a known sub par AFL player in Howlett.

He's only played a couple of games, mostly when injuries have cropped up to other players like Green and Parish.

I expect Parish will be back in the side in his place this week.

Howlett is a handy depth player. A bit below average I'd agree but he plays his role, tackles hard and is consistent. He's the sort of guy you keep on your list if they will stay for cheap because when you need to rest a guy he can fit in quite easily and do a job.

 

[JayJ20]

I agree that we don't want to be gifting games but when it's clear we aren't winning a premiership this season I don't see why we are playing a known sub par AFL player in Howlett.

 

[Lore]

I'd rather give the team finals experience than put a VFL team on the park "for development".

Everyone keeps putting 2016 on a pedestal, but compared to the same time last year, we have the same number of under 22s, the same number of under 25s, and three less over 27s. The quality of the group this year is much, much better. This years numbers don't include Parish because he's been injured, but we would actually have more under 22s/under 25s this year than last year if he were included in place of Howlett. If Laverde hadn't been injured then he'd probably add to the figures in both years.

| Last weekend || Round 15, 2016 |
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\20yo|1|-|2|--
\21yo|3|---|2|--
\22yo|1|-|2|--
\23yo|2|--|3|---
\24yo|3|---|1|-
\25yo|2|--|1|-
\26yo|1|-|1|-
\27yo|3|---|1|-
\28yo|1|-|2|--
\29yo|0||1|--
\30yo|1|-|1|-
\31yo|0||2|--
\32yo|2|--|2|--
\33yo|1|-|0|

This year we've 'blooded' Langford, Stewart, McGrath and McKenna. Francis has again had a taste of senior footy. All of those kids have had the chance to play in a quality team, and we've won half the games so overall a 50/50 chance of experiencing game-winning football at the senior level. I think that's way more beneficial than a second rate team getting thrashed in most games. This year, like last year, we have one draftee from the previous year playing pretty much every game. Last year it was Parish, now that mantle has passed to McGrath.

I have the feeling we will see Begley very soon, and he'll know he earned it when he does, which does way more for your confidence than being gifted a game.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

I agree that we don't want to be gifting games but when it's clear we aren't winning a premiership this season I don't see why we are playing a known sub par AFL player in Howlett.

I'd say it's because the coaches think there is no one behind him that could do a better role. As others have said, you have to earn it.
If there were younger blokes playing better than Kelly then they would get a game.

 

[Towno78]

I think I ultimately agree with ant555 but coming at it from a slightly different angle.

The Sydney game showed that we've basically got the system and every part of the ground other than the midfield operating at a level to be a real chance. What is being glossed over is that Sydney controlled the way that game was being played for a vast majority of the time. Just because we are capable of carving our way through a defensive press doesn't change the reality that we are still being dictated to by an opposition. If Sydney had kicked accurately we would not have been in a position to throw that game away.

If we cannot control or break even in the midfield battle an opposition will always be able to dictate terms and I'm not sure that you can win premierships that way. We currently concede too many inside 50s and too many scores - we're reliant on the inefficiency of a quality opponent to stay in a game. The only way to address this problem without hurting the scoring power that we have developed, and which will make us a contender, is to win the midfield contest.

It can change very quickly over the next twelve months (i.e. by this time next year) if we can trade in a quality clearance winning midfielder and even free agent or two (if they are available). More importantly, I think we've got two or three players who will be developed into the midfielders we need but I don't think that the ultimate goal is made any more likely by forcing the issue with these players.

Langford is now in the team but still too immature physically, he needs another huge and uninterrupted pre-season. Begley is building towards a spot in the team and is probably only just weeks away but he's not even playing midfield at the moment and what he would need more than anything is a monster and uninterrupted pre-season. The best thing for Laverde at this stage might be to play him in the seconds with the aim of giving him enough games to qualify for finals - he should probably play the most amount of games possible as opposed to worrying about AFL footy this year.

Francis, Ridley and Redman are undoubtedly more talented than some players that we have in the side at the moment but the players they could replace are part of the system which is already making up for the weak midfield (whether it is forward or back). Francis and Redman have been inconsistent at best in the VFL (as opposed to Begley and Langford who have been consistently good) and Ridley is two and a half games into the season as a third tall defender/half back. These players need to force out an incumbent before I see the value in their being selected as I don't think that their forced inclusion gets us any closer to a flag.

Whilst I agree with most of this. I have to object with the EFC are relying on our opponents to be inefficient sentiment, and that if Sydney had been accurate we wouldn't have been in it... do you think it is purely by chance that 9 teams out of 13 have been unable to score more goals than behinds?
Maybe, just maybe, there is something about how we are setting up, and how we are defending that is leading to the inaccuracy of those 9 teams, and perhaps part of that game is actually as a result of the game being played how we want it (obviously not the losing the clearances part of course)

 

[hurlygurdy]

I think I ultimately agree with ant555 but coming at it from a slightly different angle.

The Sydney game showed that we've basically got the system and every part of the ground other than the midfield operating at a level to be a real chance. What is being glossed over is that Sydney controlled the way that game was being played for a vast majority of the time. Just because we are capable of carving our way through a defensive press doesn't change the reality that we are still being dictated to by an opposition. If Sydney had kicked accurately we would not have been in a position to throw that game away.

If we cannot control or break even in the midfield battle an opposition will always be able to dictate terms and I'm not sure that you can win premierships that way. We currently concede too many inside 50s and too many scores - we're reliant on the inefficiency of a quality opponent to stay in a game. The only way to address this problem without hurting the scoring power that we have developed, and which will make us a contender, is to win the midfield contest.

It can change very quickly over the next twelve months (i.e. by this time next year) if we can trade in a quality clearance winning midfielder and even free agent or two (if they are available). More importantly, I think we've got two or three players who will be developed into the midfielders we need but I don't think that the ultimate goal is made any more likely by forcing the issue with these players.

Langford is now in the team but still too immature physically, he needs another huge and uninterrupted pre-season. Begley is building towards a spot in the team and is probably only just weeks away but he's not even playing midfield at the moment and what he would need more than anything is a monster and uninterrupted pre-season. The best thing for Laverde at this stage might be to play him in the seconds with the aim of giving him enough games to qualify for finals - he should probably play the most amount of games possible as opposed to worrying about AFL footy this year.

Francis, Ridley and Redman are undoubtedly more talented than some players that we have in the side at the moment but the players they could replace are part of the system which is already making up for the weak midfield (whether it is forward or back). Francis and Redman have been inconsistent at best in the VFL (as opposed to Begley and Langford who have been consistently good) and Ridley is two and a half games into the season as a third tall defender/half back. These players need to force out an incumbent before I see the value in their being selected as I don't think that their forced inclusion gets us any closer to a flag.

Our inside mids team used to be Watson, Heppell Myers and hocking. Out of the four we now have one and a half, so it's not surprising that it is our weakest area. The positive is that it is entirely reasonable to expect both Watson and Myers to find form soon. Add bj to that mix and the fact that parish, Merret, and zaka are all hunting their own ball and things are looking promising. I notice they throwing walla in there lately as well which could be gold. Honestly I don't think we are far off the pace even now. It's one of sydneys huge strengths so you can't be on top in every facet vs a top quality side.
If Watson alone just found consistency this year it could be job done.

 

[citizen-erased]

this year or next (full fitness & form), this is my team;

Ambrose Hartley Kelly
McKenna Hurley McGrath
Merrett Heppell Parish
Tippa Daniher Begley
Fantasia Hooker Stewart
Bellchambers Goddard Myers
Watson Zaka Colyer Langford

 

[Aeglos]

this year or next (full fitness & form), this is my team;

Ambrose Hartley Kelly
McKenna Hurley McGrath
Merrett Heppell Parish
Tippa Daniher Begley
Fantasia Hooker Stewart
Bellchambers Goddard Myers
Watson Zaka Colyer Langford

Far too slow by foot in the middle.

 

[ant555]

I agree that we don't want to be gifting games but when it's clear we aren't winning a premiership this season I don't see why we are playing a known sub par AFL player in Howlett.

As mentioned Ben is in the side because of the Parish injury. Parish will be back this week. Howlett is the back up.

 

[BrunoV]

Whilst I agree with most of this. I have to object with the EFC are relying on our opponents to be inefficient sentiment, and that if Sydney had been accurate we wouldn't have been in it... do you think it is purely by chance that 9 teams out of 13 have been unable to score more goals than behinds?
Maybe, just maybe, there is something about how we are setting up, and how we are defending that is leading to the inaccuracy of those 9 teams, and perhaps part of that game is actually as a result of the game being played how we want it (obviously not the losing the clearances part of course)

In relation to Sydney, definitely no.

We don't accept that the 50m arc is 50m from goal do we? Franklin was taking shots on spots of the ground (i.e. in relation to the 50m arc) you'd expect him to kick at the MCG let alone the SCG (which is closer) - the left flank where he gets the right to left drift in particular.

In any event, the comment I made was in relation to quality opponents and not every team we have played. Richmond was another game in which they failed to put us away despite having the run of play for what was close to 3/4 of the night.

You can't really take anything from the West Coast game except that they were at the flaky worst so I don't count that game - there was nothing about our pressure that would cause me to believe that we threw them off their game. The Port game is interesting because of the lack of pressure around the ball which is uncharacteristic of Port and the fact that we could not buy a centre clearance.

Collingwood, other the other hand, had more scoring shots but it all stemmed from two passages of play when they pressed and could't kick a goal. We controlled the tempo of that game for a majority of the time (as we did in the Hawthorn game).

While we might be a different side, the one time we went head to head with an efficient scoring side Adelaide tore us to pieces. GWS hardly had to get out of 3rd gear with about 10 injuries to never really be troubled.

 

[BrunoV]

Our inside mids team used to be Watson, Heppell Myers and hocking. Out of the four we now have one and a half, so it's not surprising that it is our weakest area. The positive is that it is entirely reasonable to expect both Watson and Myers to find form soon. Add bj to that mix and the fact that parish, Merret, and zaka are all hunting their own ball and things are looking promising. I notice they throwing walla in there lately as well which could be gold. Honestly I don't think we are far off the pace even now. It's one of sydneys huge strengths so you can't be on top in every facet vs a top quality side.
If Watson alone just found consistency this year it could be job done.

Myers should improve because he is covering the ground better than he has probably since he was an under-18 (or in his first year or so in the AFL system). Watson unfortunately looks like a necessary evil at this stage as he's quite clearly a step behind what he used to be and he's been at the same level all year. As much as I want him to be a part of any success we have, I doubt that he would be playing if we had suitable replacements. He currently serves a purpose because he is the only genuine grunt that we have in the middle. Merrett and Zaharakis can try to find all of the ball they want but they're part of the midfield that is getting belted so I don't see any reason to think that they are part of the solution to our ball winning woes. The same applies to Goddard.

 

[Mootsy]

In all likelihood out of all the players you listed only Goddard will be in our best team next year. It is not like older guys are going to be keeping the next tier out of the team.

Playing them this season and playing finals will do more for our chances moving forward.

Sent from my F3115 using Tapatalk

A good player will be consistent at AFL or VFL level, a natural footballer will, and whilst Goddard is playing well, you play him, simple stuff.
He averages very good stats per game and is a precision kicker.......(most times..).....(these pretzels are making me thirsty)....

 

[citizen-erased]

Far too slow by foot in the middle.

im not sure where we get any more pace from though.
Laverde is probably the next quickest mid we'd have, and he could replace Myers given he is a bigger body, but i would call him that fast.
The pace would come from the likes of McKenna, McGrath, Tippa & Fantasia running through.
Seems to be our game plan

 

[citizen-erased]

Myers should improve because he is covering the ground better than he has probably since he was an under-18 (or in his first year or so in the AFL system). Watson unfortunately looks like a necessary evil at this stage as he's quite clearly a step behind what he used to be and he's been at the same level all year. As much as I want him to be a part of any success we have, I doubt that he would be playing if we had suitable replacements. He currently serves a purpose because he is the only genuine grunt that we have in the middle. Merrett and Zaharakis can try to find all of the ball they want but they're part of the midfield that is getting belted so I don't see any reason to think that they are part of the solution to our ball winning woes. The same applies to Goddard.

Agree with this.
Putting the cutthroat glasses on, if it hadn't been for the saga i reckon we'd be doing the same with Jobe as Adelaide are with Thompson.
Maybe its taking him a bit longer given he's 31/32? and coming off a longer stint off, but he's the only one that was suspended over 28 that is in the team.

We have 2 avenues for the ball winners - either Laverde, Begley and/or Francis turn into those players (all 3 have the qualities, its a matter of fitness and readiness imo). or we have to trade/draft them in.

I would love to see Myers become a ball hunter. Has the body and size for it. Massive kick. good mark. Work on his hands in tight a little, but if he was at full flight, he'd be a vital cog. Just didn't translate that VFL form to AFL.

 

[Aeglos]

im not sure where we get any more pace from though.
Laverde is probably the next quickest mid we'd have, and he could replace Myers given he is a bigger body, but i would call him that fast.
The pace would come from the likes of McKenna, McGrath, Tippa & Fantasia running through.
Seems to be our game plan

IMO Myers isn't part of our mid-long term plans.
As for Laverde/Langford; they should be made to force Watson/Goddard/Hepp out of the side or wait until the first 2 retire.
Gleeson for Kelly is an obvious one, then depending on whether we see McGrath as a midfielder or defender will dictate what we draft for.
We could probably afford to go for another small forward/midfielder in the Tippa/Fantasia mould to share some of the 3rd centre bounce spot as well (I think ideally you'd have a big bull eg J Kennedy, a distributor eg S Mitchell and someone lightning quick eg Kelly)

 

[citizen-erased]

IMO Myers isn't part of our mid-long term plans.
As for Laverde/Langford; they should be made to force Watson/Goddard/Hepp out of the side or wait until the first 2 retire.
Gleeson for Kelly is an obvious one, then depending on whether we see McGrath as a midfielder or defender will dictate what we draft for.
We could probably afford to go for another small forward/midfielder in the Tippa/Fantasia mould to share some of the 3rd centre bounce spot as well (I think ideally you'd have a big bull eg J Kennedy, a distributor eg S Mitchell and someone lightning quick eg Kelly)

I think Langford has done that with Myers now.
Laverde strikes me as our Watson replacement.
Goddard will be best 22 next season, so we have time to plan for him. Francis is the one for me though.

Remainder of 2017 midfield
Bellchambers Watson Heppell
Parish Goddard Merrett

2018 midfield
Bellchambers Laverde Heppell
Parish Goddard Merrett

2019 midfield
Draper Laverde Heppell
Parish Francis Merrett

Begley into Green's role may happen this week
Langford, Zaka, Colyer off the bench.

Mutch is coming along nicely. Clarke has some work to do but looks like he could be a good inside player

Without considering who we grab in the 2017 & 2018 draft/trade periods and delistings.
I assume we keep Myers & Howlett for the next 2-3 years for their experience.