Bolton, Henneman, solomon and list management

[Karlostj]

This has probably been done to death, however I'll make sure.

Given that the club seems to have kept Bolton and perhaps now Henneman, due to the loss of Solomon. Why did we get rid of Solomon?

If we'd kept solomon, rather then picks 42 and 47, we'd have pick 52.

However, we could have also got rid of Bolton and Henneman...

I'd prefer to have Solomon signed on for 2years (as he would have stayed on those terms) and picks 52 and 68.

then keep bolton (and maybe henneman) and have picks 42 and 47...

What do other posters rate better?

Solomon for 2yrs, picks 52 and 68 plus PSD #2

or

Bolton, Henneman and picks 42 and 47 (possibly swap Henneman for PSD#2)????

Are essendon keeping two players that we know are no good, because we got rid of a decent player (and cheaply)....

 

[Crave]

This has probably been done to death, however I'll make sure.

Given that the club seems to have kept Bolton and perhaps now Henneman, due to the loss of Solomon. Why did we get rid of Solomon?

If we'd kept solomon, rather then picks 42 and 47, we'd have pick 52.

However, we could have also got rid of Bolton and Henneman...

I'd prefer to have Solomon signed on for 2years (as he would have stayed on those terms) and picks 52 and 68.

then keep bolton (and maybe henneman) and have picks 42 and 47...

What do other posters rate better?

Solomon for 2yrs, picks 52 and 68 plus PSD #2

or

Bolton, Henneman and picks 42 and 47 (possibly swap Henneman for PSD#2)????

Are essendon keeping two players that we know are no good, because we got rid of a decent player (and cheaply)....

Its hard to suggest they've made the wrong decision without seeing who we'll actually get in the draft.

 

[Karlostj]

Its hard to suggest they've made the wrong decision without seeing who we'll actually get in the draft.

But thats cheating... Of course if we draft guns with picks 42 and 47 in hindsight the decision seems wise.

However, when the decision was made, the club had no idea who they would be getting with those picks...

Judging whether the right decision was made, should be made in context of when the decision was made.... not after the consequences have been realised....

 

[DaSawx]

Bolton and Henneman won't be playing much next year, if in fact we even keep Henneman, less than 50% chance IMO.

Solomon could easily be replaced the way he has performed the last 2 years, his salary would be even easier to replace.

Lonergan was a 50+ pick in a not so good draft, I think we can add some really good players this year

 

[Daytripper]

This has probably been done to death, however I'll make sure.

Given that the club seems to have kept Bolton and perhaps now Henneman, due to the loss of Solomon. Why did we get rid of Solomon?

If we'd kept solomon, rather then picks 42 and 47, we'd have pick 52.

However, we could have also got rid of Bolton and Henneman...

I'd prefer to have Solomon signed on for 2years (as he would have stayed on those terms) and picks 52 and 68.

then keep bolton (and maybe henneman) and have picks 42 and 47...

What do other posters rate better?

Solomon for 2yrs, picks 52 and 68 plus PSD #2

or

Bolton, Henneman and picks 42 and 47 (possibly swap Henneman for PSD#2)????

Are essendon keeping two players that we know are no good, because we got rid of a decent player (and cheaply)....

I wrote this on another thread but picks 50 plus are generally rubbish and are usually delisted after two years.

2001 : Andrew Browne, Daniel Hunt, Brad Miller, Ben Robbins, Paul Medhurst, Brent Colbert, Dane Swan, Jacob Schubeck, Adam Schneider
2002 : Josh Thelewis, Tim Boyle, Adam Selwood, Cameron Hunter, Ryan Crowley, Robert Shirley, Wade Champion, David King & Cameron Croad
2003 : Izaac Thompson, Matthew Ball, Daniel Jackson, Sam Fisher, Brent Le Cras, Ricky Mott, Ben Hudson, Matthew Davis & Julian Rowe - all the others were passed.
2004 : Jayden Attard, Ben Eckermann, Dean Limbach, Simon Taylor, Stephen Tiller, Adam Iacobucci, Chris Knights, Brad Smith, Brad Moran, Benet Copping, Paul Thomas

38 players in total

A Grade Players : Nil
B Grade Players : Crowley, Swan, S Fisher
C Grade Players : Miller, Schneider, A Selwood, Shirley, Hudson
D Grade Players : Medhurst, Boyle, Taylor, Le Cras, Knights, Robbins

24 players either delisted or below D Grade

So if you have an existing C grade player at your club then the percentages favour you keeping them rather than taking a chance on drafting a player ranked 50 or below. A D Grade player is line ball.

FWIW I would rate Bolton a C Grader and Henneman a D Grader

I know its not quite as 'sexy' as draft picks but you'll end up in front over the long haul by keeping C Grade's and being conservative with the D Grade's than trading them for draft picks in the 50s and beyond.

Here endeth my thesis.

 

[Boris_Bewick]

Not a bad argument. Firstly, Medhurst is a C grader in my opinion has had better games than all the C graders mentioned. But thats a minor thing.

I would not put Bolton at the same level as the C graders, I would prefer all the C graders you'e got insteaed of him. I see what you're trying to say but by your grades, I think I would rather risk a draft pick, hopefully get a lucky B grader like Swan or Fisher (who if they have another year like they did in 2006, will be A graders) in a strong draft.

Off topic, we haven't seen Henneman for a year so if he is lucky enough to get retained, he has got to get himself fit. He has dodgy shoulders, but he needs to run himself into the ground in pre-season fitness. In matches he always looks like he doesn't have any run in him, run like he had in 2001.

 

[Karlostj]

so whats the likelihood of pick 42 turning out to be decent (effectively what we gave up Solly for), is it that better a pick then pick 68 to warrant trading a former 3rd in B&F and keeping Bolton/Henneman because the club realised that would be a lack of experienced talls???

Effectively is Bolton and pick 42 better then Solly??? Solomon's past two seasons haven't been great, however he was bulked up and was talked about being up to 104kg so that he could play key defensive positions....

Freo plan to strip 7kgs from him for next season.... Given that club has realised that it's position in relation to tall backs is so perilous that we're now thinking of keeping Henneman, perhaps trading Solomon wasn't such a good idea....

 

[Sam the RAMA fan]

Its hard to suggest they've made the wrong decision without seeing who we'll actually get in the draft.

Agree.

I'm also hoping Rama will be back on the list next season.

 

[Crave]

But thats cheating... Of course if we draft guns with picks 42 and 47 in hindsight the decision seems wise.

However, when the decision was made, the club had no idea who they would be getting with those picks...

Judging whether the right decision was made, should be made in context of when the decision was made.... not after the consequences have been realised....

How can it be cheating?? You cant measure either till you place a timeframe and also measure output. Lets say we gain a player who ends up playing 100 games for us, then we discard him...Id be willing to bet we wouldnt have gotten another 100 games out of Solly on his current form...

 

[Daytripper]

Not a bad argument. Firstly, Medhurst is a C grader in my opinion has had better games than all the C graders mentioned. But thats a minor thing.

I would not put Bolton at the same level as the C graders, I would prefer all the C graders you'e got insteaed of him. I see what you're trying to say but by your grades, I think I would rather risk a draft pick, hopefully get a lucky B grader like Swan or Fisher (who if they have another year like they did in 2006, will be A graders) in a strong draft.

Bolts, like it or not, has played 97 games for an AFL club. He might not be as good as an Adam Schneider but certainly he is as valuable as an Adam Selwood or a Robert Shirley. That makes him a C Grader to me.
Medhurst simply isn't consistent enough and whilst his best is good his worst is very, very bad. But thats all personal opinion.

Why risk the draft pick when you know they're likely not to succeed ?
Swan and Fisher are decent AFL players but how much growth have they got in them ?
The risk/reward ratio is too poor to be casting off C Grade playerrs for picks 50 and beyond.

so whats the likelihood of pick 42 turning out to be decent (effectively what we gave up Solly for), is it that better a pick then pick 68 to warrant trading a former 3rd in B&F and keeping Bolton/Henneman because the club realised that would be a lack of experienced talls???

Effectively is Bolton and pick 42 better then Solly??? Solomon's past two seasons haven't been great, however he was bulked up and was talked about being up to 104kg so that he could play key defensive positions..

Good question.
Solly (as much I love him as a player) had deteriorated towards the end of his career with us. I imagine Freo will be looking to use him as a Daniel Chick type spare parts player. I don't know if we need that type of player at the moment.

A pick in the 40s is better than a pick in the 50s as discussed above. We get to keep a C Grader and maybe a 40% chance of pick 42 being a C Grader or above.

Therefore, yes Bolton plus pick 42 is greater than Solomon.

 

[Shane Hird]

This has probably been done to death, however I'll make sure.

Given that the club seems to have kept Bolton and perhaps now Henneman, due to the loss of Solomon. Why did we get rid of Solomon?

If we'd kept solomon, rather then picks 42 and 47, we'd have pick 52.

However, we could have also got rid of Bolton and Henneman...

I'd prefer to have Solomon signed on for 2years (as he would have stayed on those terms) and picks 52 and 68.

then keep bolton (and maybe henneman) and have picks 42 and 47...

What do other posters rate better?

Solomon for 2yrs, picks 52 and 68 plus PSD #2

or

Bolton, Henneman and picks 42 and 47 (possibly swap Henneman for PSD#2)????

Are essendon keeping two players that we know are no good, because we got rid of a decent player (and cheaply)....

Geez i had to read this 3-4 times,interesting thoughts Karl.

But to be very simplistic,here is how i see it.

Solly has lost pace ,too much pace and now was the only time we were gunna get anything of value for him.So he went.Call it a EFC business desision.

No other clubs were remotely interested in Bolts and I don't we would get alot for hennoman,I don't think EFC even bothered to asked other clubs because they knew what answer they would get.

High Draft picks? remember Hird's number in the draft 67 or sumthing?
We are rebuilding and have a chance to have 8 young kids from the so called super draft.
Next year,we will finish much higher up the ladder and might not get the chance again for many years to have so many picks in the ND.

Its a gamble by EFC,but lets all hope it pays off

 

[Crave]

so whats the likelihood of pick 42 turning out to be decent (effectively what we gave up Solly for), is it that better a pick then pick 68 to warrant trading a former 3rd in B&F and keeping Bolton/Henneman because the club realised that would be a lack of experienced talls???
Effectively is Bolton and pick 42 better then Solly??? Solomon's past two seasons haven't been great, however he was bulked up and was talked about being up to 104kg so that he could play key defensive positions....

Freo plan to strip 7kgs from him for next season.... Given that club has realised that it's position in relation to tall backs is so perilous that we're now thinking of keeping Henneman, perhaps trading Solomon wasn't such a good idea....

You need to factor in that this particular draft is very deep and rich in talent. The club have realised that drafts like this dont come often enough, so we have to make our picks count and as close to the top bracket as possible before the talent thins out the back end.

While you make very valid points, to move forward...the club had to discard what it thought were players on the decline. Whether Freo will reap any benefits remains yet to be seen till 07 commences. I do however support your argument that we're retaining 2 mediocre players to shore things up down back....thats presuming Henneman can get himself right...at least Bolts gets on the park...if that amounts to anything.

Im happy with the trade personally...a step in the right direction.

 

[Karlostj]

You need to factor in that this particular draft is very deep and rich in talent. The club have realised that drafts like this dont come often enough, so we have to make our picks count and as close to the top bracket as possible before the talent thins out the back end.

While you make very valid points, to move forward...the club had to discard what it thought were players on the decline. Whether Freo will reap any benefits remains yet to be seen till 07 commences. I do however support your argument that we're retaining 2 mediocre players to shore things up down back....thats presuming Henneman can get himself right...at least Bolts gets on the park...if that amounts to anything.

Im happy with the trade personally...a step in the right direction.

I guess it depends on how Solomon is rated... He was 26 when traded, 2 years older then when he was 3rd in the B&F... 05/06 weren't good years for him. However, how much of that was because he was played out of position and while injured or not fully recovered from injury???

In articles about Solly going to Freo, it was mentioned that he had bulked up to 104kg so that he could play a key defensive role... This would have obviously impacted on both his endurance and pace... At Freo, they want him to slim down 4-7kgs - back to his 2004 playing weight most likely. If this can prolong his career then perhaps he could be playing past 30 like Chick is at present - that is another 4-5yrs....

If Solly could keep injury free (and apparently this is the first off season in a long time with no ops for him), which I think he could, and play in a HBF position, he would be a good player for us in 2008. In 2008 neither Henneman or Bolton will be around. Obviously pick 42 will be.

I guess its about pick 42 giving a decent enough chance at grabbing a good player to discount the chance that Solly could actually be a good player for the next 4 years (and therefore part of our future). If he was to get back to 04 form, then we could have a lost a top 5 b&F player for a 40% prob of a player being a decent player....

 

[Bombs Away]

I guess it depends on how Solomon is rated... He was 26 when traded, 2 years older then when he was 3rd in the B&F... 05/06 weren't good years for him. However, how much of that was because he was played out of position and while injured or not fully recovered from injury???

In articles about Solly going to Freo, it was mentioned that he had bulked up to 104kg so that he could play a key defensive role... This would have obviously impacted on both his endurance and pace... At Freo, they want him to slim down 4-7kgs - back to his 2004 playing weight most likely. If this can prolong his career then perhaps he could be playing past 30 like Chick is at present - that is another 4-5yrs....

If Solly could keep injury free (and apparently this is the first off season in a long time with no ops for him), which I think he could, and play in a HBF position, he would be a good player for us in 2008. In 2008 neither Henneman or Bolton will be around. Obviously pick 42 will be.

I guess its about pick 42 giving a decent enough chance at grabbing a good player to discount the chance that Solly could actually be a good player for the next 4 years (and therefore part of our future). If he was to get back to 04 form, then we could have a lost a top 5 b&F player for a 40% prob of a player being a decent player....

You speak about solly and HBF as his position and that is right, with injuries and the way the game is changing we probable have 2 better now in NLM and McPhee with a plethora in reserve (nash, cole etc) so letting bolton go and free up some $$$ in the salary cap not a bad idea one would think.

Everyone knows that Henneman and Bolton wont be around in 2008, but by bolton getting his 100 games we then let him loose to go and breed as much as possible and hope his kids can play football.

 

[mustapha]

Everyone knows that Henneman and Bolton wont be around in 2008, but by bolton getting his 100 games we then let him loose to go and breed as much as possible and hope his kids can play football.

I don't think that they do. Would it really surprise you if Bolton had another 4 or 5 years at the club?

 

[essendon]

Bolts will be there until the coach is there !!!!

 

[Vulture_72]

You speak about solly and HBF as his position and that is right, with injuries and the way the game is changing we probable have 2 better now in NLM and McPhee with a plethora in reserve (nash, cole etc) so letting bolton go and free up some $$$ in the salary cap not a bad idea one would think.

Everyone knows that Henneman and Bolton wont be around in 2008, but by bolton getting his 100 games we then let him loose to go and breed as much as possible and hope his kids can play football.

Bolts has already reached the 100 game mark. He has played about 115 games.

 

[Longy413]

C Grade Players : Miller, Schneider, A Selwood, Shirley, Hudson
D Grade Players : Medhurst, Boyle, Taylor, Le Cras, Knights, Robbins

FWIW I would rate Bolton a C Grader and Henneman a D Grader
.

Surely you can't rate Bolton on the same level as Adam Selwood and Schneider?

Let's take into account that this draft is a lot stronger than previous years as well.

 

[stander]

Surely you can't rate Bolton on the same level as Adam Selwood and Schneider?

Let's take into account that this draft is a lot stronger than previous years as well.

If Schneider is a C, we must a lot of D's and E's

 

[ant555]

This has probably been done to death, however I'll make sure.

Given that the club seems to have kept Bolton and perhaps now Henneman, due to the loss of Solomon. Why did we get rid of Solomon?

If we'd kept solomon, rather then picks 42 and 47, we'd have pick 52.

However, we could have also got rid of Bolton and Henneman...

I'd prefer to have Solomon signed on for 2years (as he would have stayed on those terms) and picks 52 and 68.

then keep bolton (and maybe henneman) and have picks 42 and 47...

What do other posters rate better?

Solomon for 2yrs, picks 52 and 68 plus PSD #2

or

Bolton, Henneman and picks 42 and 47 (possibly swap Henneman for PSD#2)????

Are essendon keeping two players that we know are no good, because we got rid of a decent player (and cheaply)....

I would rather have kept Solly and not have Bolton or Henno. It didnt turn out that way because for Solly to stay they had to offer him a two year deal and i agree with the clubs stance on that. Given he has had three knee opps in two years and has had trouble getting through pre season he was a risk.
In the end i dont think it will matter as Bolts and Henno wont be at the club in 2007.And Sheedy wont be the coach.

 

[nesski47]

i think what happened, much to my dismay, horror, chagrin etc, is that no one wanted bolts or henneman (do you blame them?) but they did want solly (who wouldn't?!). i think it's a grossly wrong decision. they should've worked harder to retain dean. while he didn't have a great season, he's still an asset to the team and i hope he kicks ass at freo. a further question is why either he or jj had to go? why were they each only offered one season contracts. why do the powers that be insist on paying respect to those who have given nothing to the club, but crapping on those who have been, in my opinion, legends of the club?

 

[nesski47]

I would rather have kept Solly and not have Bolton or Henno. It didnt turn out that way because for Solly to stay they had to offer him a two year deal and i agree with the clubs stance on that. Given he has had three knee opps in two years and has had trouble getting through pre season he was a risk.
In the end i dont think it will matter as Bolts and Henno wont be at the club in 2007.And Sheedy wont be the coach.

i agree totally, except with one thing. solly didn't have 3 knee ops. he had his reconstruction and then had arthroscopic surgery, which is just a clean up and most people have. he did have hand surgery a couple of years ago to correct some damaged/torn ligaments.

 

[Daytripper]

Surely you can't rate Bolton on the same level as Adam Selwood and Schneider?

Let's take into account that this draft is a lot stronger than previous years as well.

Schneider is very much in and out. Adam Selwood is the poorer of the two Selwoods in my opinion.

Bolton might be a C-.

Every year people say that the draft is stronger than normal. I'd like to see the proof first before believing the hype.

 

[Longy413]

They weren't saying that about the draft last year.

Adam Selwood is the better of the two at the moment. Troy has had a couple of injuries and was rated the better of the two as juniors. But Adam is playing very good footy at senior level. Averaged nearly 20 disposals in a premiership side, not bad going.

Schneider is a pretty handy footballer, consistent, impacts games, kicks goals and does run with roles. He's no out and out gun, but he's a hell of a lot better than Mark Bolton.

 

[ant555]

i agree totally, except with one thing. solly didn't have 3 knee ops. he had his reconstruction and then had arthroscopic surgery, which is just a clean up and most people have. he did have hand surgery a couple of years ago to correct some damaged/torn ligaments.

I never said he had three reco's( Having had two myself i know the difference between them and a clean up ), i said he has had three opps on his knee in the last two years. Even as minor as arthroscopes are they still take 6 weeks or so out of training. He had minor surgery at the start of 2005. His season finished early in 2005 as he had to have another clean up of his knee amongst other things. He also had more minor surgery on his knee in Feb this year keeping him out of the practice match's.