Brent Harvey vs Brad Johnson

[Bulldog1954]

Thoughtless trolling aside, I thought this was an interesting aspect of the argument to look into, and that it might be interesting to actually see how Johnson's finals stats weigh up against Harvey's. You'd probably expect Harvey to have superior numbers, given Johnson's apparently poor finals reputation and Harvey's extra finals success, but here are the stats:

Johnson:
22 Finals
18.1 Disposals
0.8 Goals
4.9 Marks
1.2 Tackles

Harvey:
17 Finals
15.4 Disposals
0.9 Goals
2.9 Marks
2.1 Tackles

Can't complain about Johnson's finals performances then, or if you do, then you'll be putting Harvey in the same boat.
Worth noting too that both players have played significant numbers of finals games outside what you would consider their peak period (for the sake of an objective definition, we'll say the 8 year period between each player's first and last All Australian selection is their peak; 99-07 for Johnson, 00-08 for Harvey).
Johnson played only 5 finals in this period, and averaged 22 disposals and 1.0 goal, while Harvey has had 9 of his finals appearances during his peak, and averaged 17.7 disposals and 1.0 goal. Again, the numbers stack up favourably for Johnno.

As to the question of who is the better player... They're tough to split. I'd lean towards Johnson based on individual awards and statistics (both regular season and finals), but of course there's a bloody premiership for Harvey which tends to hold a peculiar amount of weight in player vs player polls.
Voted Johnson, as the one-sidedness of the poll isn't indicative of how close in quality these two champs are.


And for those saying that Harvey's performance isn't going to drop off at some point due to his excellent fitness and form, just keep in mind Johnno's second last season (he was the same age as Boomer is now). Played all 25 games, came 4th in the BnF, averaged 22 disposals, 1.5 goals, 7 marks and 2.6 tackles a game. Was top ten in the league for kicks and marks, and first for goal assists. And as far as fitness goes, he had missed roughly 3 games due to injury from 1999-2009. Anyone calling for his retirement at the end of 2009 would've been called a moron.
The end can come swiftly I'm afraid

About to post the same thing, everyone is eager to bag Johnsons finals performances yet Boomer doesn't get the same criticism. Boomer did well winning a flag as a youngster, since then when he has been their best player they have constantly been smashed in finals

Having said that, very difficult to split as players. Anyone saying it is an easy call one way or the other is clueless

 

[mark73]

Having said that, very difficult to split as players. Anyone saying it is an easy call one way or the other is clueless

Well said, and stupid to think of them in a comparative regard anyway. Two genuine champions of the game.

 

[RedWhite&Blue]

Johnno easily...
His last year really clouds people's memory of how good he was. For about 5 or 6 years he was referred to as the 'Smiling Assassin' and 'Pound for Pound there was not a better player in the league' was bandied around in the media for years. Think LeCras only a lot better and that was what you had with Johnno.
Sackermanis has a lot to do with the memory of Johnno being tarnished and because he gets to mouth off constantly in the media, people take it as fact.
I look at Harvey and see a really selfish player that will run the length of the ground and not even consider handballing it off and then kick a point. This trait says a lot about his leadership qualities. I don't have a lot of respect for a player that has an ego that big in a team game.

 

[MaddAdam]

I look at Harvey and see a really selfish player that will run the length of the ground and not even consider handballing it off and then kick a point. This trait says a lot about his leadership qualities. I don't have a lot of respect for a player that has an ego that big in a team game.

This is of course why Boomer has the third highest goal assists in history.

As for not handballing over the top, Johnson twice refused to handball over the top to Aker, costing the Dogs games. Did it plenty of other times too.

Johnson was a far more selfish player than Boomer, right down to his refusal to accept it was over and retire gracefully.

It is only because, like a dolphin, Johnson had a rictus grin stuck on his face that people "thought him nice".

Selfish, selfish footballer. Who was also prone to choking on match winning set shots.

 

[MaddAdam]

LOL.

This from a Dogs fan site on Johnson:

He is very blinkered around goals. He will take the shot from the boundary line even when he has time to check what other options are available. The upside is that he is willing to take a lot of responsibility, the downside is that we sometimes miss out on creating a better percentage shot

.

http://thescray.blogspot.com/2007/06/brad-johnsons-weaknesses-and-our.html

 

[Mahama]

As for not handballing over the top, Johnson twice refused to handball over the top to Aker, costing the Dogs games. Did it plenty of other times too.

Very interesting. Don't recall this myself. Would you mind giving me the match details so I can have a look at the videos? Just the two involving Aker will be fine, though if you can list some of the 'plenty of other times' that would be great too.

Johnson was a far more selfish player than Boomer, right down to his refusal to accept it was over and retire gracefully.

When would you have suggested he should have retired, out of interest? After his 2009 season (see previous post for stats)? Or perhaps leading into the 2010 finals when the Bulldogs' next best forward alternative was Andrew Hooper?

Who was also prone to choking on match winning set shots.

Two games, one against the Roos and one against the Cats, out of a 364 game career. He won plenty more than two off his own boot.

This from a Dogs fan site on Johnson:

Written in 2007, a year in which Johnson wasn't in the top 100 in the league for goal assists. In 2008 Johnno was 13th in the league for assists, in 2009 he was 1st, and in 2010 he was 9th in assists per game. Seems to me he improved this area of his game drastically as his career wound down (incidentally, Harvey appears to be going the opposite way, averaging only 0.3 assists a game this season).


In saying all that, why bother trying to figure out who is more selfish out of Brent Harvey and Brad Johnson? We're talking about two brilliant, goal scoring players who have regularly had to carry their teams; selfish play has pretty much been a neccessity for them over the years. I'd have loved Boomer being more selfless during any of the matches he's dominated against the Dogs, that way I don't have to see my team on the wrong end of a goal of the year contender (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtwVvpuZpjU for reference).


Incidentally, still yet to see solid, objective reasoning for Brent Harvey being the clearly better player.

 

[Bulldog1954]

Johnson was a far more selfish player than Boomer, right down to his refusal to accept it was over and retire gracefully.

Do you want boomer to retire at the end if the year? In 09 Johnson played every game and came fourth in the best and fairest, there were no signs he was done so played on in 2010. There are no signs boomer is done but I assume you want him to retire at the end of the year because there is a chance he will get injured and his body catches up with him next year

 

[alex 17]

Boomer comfortably

 

[Pykie]

I don't get the whole "oh but Johnson had this unbelievable season in..." from dog supporters.


They do remember Boomer was one of the pre-brownlow favourites two years running, finishing second one of those years.

BOG for Victoria as a just turned 21 year old.


Stats are irrelevant, blind freddy can tell you Harvey is the far more damaging footballer on the field.


Remarkable consistency, with no signs of slowing down.

Funnily enough his size is now his saviour, the smaller body means there has been far less strain accross the journey, with no soft tissue issues at all in his career.

I can see him playing out his days as a very successful half forward in the next 3 seasons, might well be the third player to reach 400 games.

 

[Teffy]

Stats are irrelevant, blind freddy can tell you Harvey is the far more damaging footballer on the field.


Remarkable consistency, with no signs of slowing down.

Indeed. Can anyone provide the relative run and carry and disposal efficiency stats?

Also, how many games was Johnson THE designated forward for the Bulldogs? 50?

Here's an interesting one for all the stats lovers out there:

30 or more disposals in a match

Johnson - 10
Harvey - 39

 

[MaddAdam]

Ind

30 or more disposals in a match

Johnson - 10
Harvey - 39

Interesting.

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

Interesting.

Interesting in a one of them spent most of their career as a full forward way?

 

[Bulldog1954]

Interesting.

Hmmh, very interesting. Is this the first time a player who spends substantially more time in the midfield then another has got 30+ disposals more often? In related news Daniel Harris has more 30+ disposal games then mick martyn ever did, gobsmacking I know. While we are making arguments completely ignoring the positions people play - games with four goals or more: Johnson 40 Harvey 11

 

[Teffy]

I'm sensing some rather desperate flip flopping.

A "career" forward with a mere 0.3 goal difference over a midfielder?

It seems by that logic that Boomer is the better midfielder AND forward.

I'm not getting any real joy out of this guys as Jonno was a GUN, who played with great spirit and integrity, and who doesn't really deserve to have his accomplishments dimished by being scrutinised against a better player. You would be much better served in your respect of Johnson by giving this debate a miss.

 

[Kings Army]

It is very funny that the Dog supporters are using Johnson's terrible last year as the excuse for getting smashed in this poll. Johnson is much loved at the dogs and this has lead to over inflating his playing ability. Harvey is winning this poll because he was better.

 

[MaddAdam]

I'm sensing some rather desperate flip flopping.

A "career" forward with a mere 0.3 goal difference over a midfielder?

It seems by that logic that Boomer is the better midfielder AND forward.

Yep. The jig is up now.

 

[Mahama]

So Johnno only has 0.37 more goals a game despite playing more time forward, and Harvey is only averaging 0.96 disposals a game more than Johnson despite playing in the midfield... If you want to use those stats as an argument for either player, I'm pretty certain that 1 goal is worth more than 2 or 3 disposals.

30 or more disposals in a match

Johnson - 10
Harvey - 39

Here's another interesting one:

4 or more goals in a match

Johnson - 40
Harvey - 11

Stats are irrelevant, blind freddy can tell you Harvey is the far more damaging footballer on the field.

Is the definition of "damaging" limited to how often a player can dodge around an opponent and pick up over 30 disposals? I'd have thought that, say, kicking four or more goals in a game or taking marks in the forward line is pretty damaging. Or am I missing something there that Freddy has picked up on?


So, in terms of stats, awards, finals performance, how damaging they are and how selfish they are, I'm still yet to see what it is that makes Harvey the clearly better player, either at their peak or over their careers.

Also, still waiting on a response from DawOfPerception regarding specific examples of Johnson losing games by not handballing to Aker and others, and when exactly he should have retired.

 

[Pykie]

^ Stop being so petty.

Harvey has never been a huge ball winner.


The highest he's averaged in a season is 25 touches a game, the rest of the time is around the 23-24 mark.


What he is though; is the epitome of the 100 metre player, I struggle to think of a midfielder with more damaging run and carry in the AFL era.

Possibly Peter Matera.


Also, there's very very few midfielders to average well over a goal a game for their entire careers, especially one spanning 300+ games.


I'd hazard a guess, he'd be holding the running bounces record in the AFL era, by a good 20%.


"Damaging", it's unquantifiable..... but any mug can tell you, when you couple his footskills, run and carry, ball winning, goal kicking etc, yeah, he's pretty darn "damaging".

 

[Teffy]

So Johnno only has 0.37 more goals a game despite playing more time forward, and Harvey is only averaging 0.96 disposals a game more than Johnson despite playing in the midfield... If you want to use those stats as an argument for either player, I'm pretty certain that 1 goal is worth more than 2 or 3 disposals.

I was interpreting other peoples logic, not espousing my own. It's a pity you seem to lack the intellectual capacities to comprehend this.

Johnson and Harvey have both played midfield and forward roles. Harvey has Johnson covered in every area except marking.

 

[Mahama]

^ Stop being so petty.

My point wasn't, as you seem to have interpreted it, that Harvey isn't damaging or a brilliant player. We're comparing Brad Johnson and Brent Harvey here, so if the fact that Harvey is only marginally behind Johnson in goals per game is going to be used as an argument, it hardly seems petty to point out that the same argument works the other way with disposals per game. Ditto when Harvey's tally of games with 30 or more disposals is thrown in, it only makes sense to point out Johnson's tally of games with 4 or more goals.
At the end of the day, all that's relevant is that neither player has a clear statistical advantage over the other.

Similarly, I agree that Harvey possesses all those listed attributes, which makes him a damaging player. But at the same time, Johnson's contested marking, versatility, bag kicking, footskills, etc. also suggests he was pretty darn damaging.

Again, this is a thread for comparisons between the two, so all I'm doing is pointing out that, in all the areas that have been raised for comparison so far, there is nothing to suggest that Harvey is the clearly better player... Which is adding weight to my original opinion, initially based only on my subjective memory of their careers, that they're two different, brilliant players who are very hard to split.


Mind you, if I'm shown these games that Johnson cost the Dogs by not handballing to Aker and plenty of others, and it's demonstrated that there was a better time for him to retire than when he did, he would certainly go down a level in my estimations and I'd likely see Harvey as being clearly the better player.

 

[Mahama]

I was interpreting other peoples logic, not espousing my own. It's a pity you seem to lack the intellectual capacities to comprehend this.

Funny, I've been doing the same. Pity indeed.

Harvey has Johnson covered in every area except marking.

Now what I'd really like is to have the intellectual capacity to somehow make the leap from what's been argued so far, to this simple, straight-forward conclusion. Did I miss your objective reasoning somewhere, or is this one of those "it's my opinion and therefore it's true" statements?

 

[Igloo]

There is really no point Mahama. These are North supporters you are dealing with here. Nothing they say is wrong.

 

[MaddAdam]

I still wonder why if Footscray had all these guns who were better than their North equivalents, they couldn't even win a prelim, yet we won two Grand Finals.

Can anyone help me with this mystery?

 

[Igloo]

I still wonder why if Footscray had all these guns who were better than their North equivalents, they couldn't even win a prelim, yet we won two Grand Finals.

Can anyone help me with this mystery?

You know football is a TEAM sport, not an individual one, yeah?

 

[MaddAdam]

You know football is a TEAM sport, not an individual one, yeah?

A lesson that the Dogs would do well to learn I reckon.

Still doesnt answer my question though. If the Dogs had a team filled with blokes all apparently better than their North equivalents ...