Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Rich01]

Looking objectively, the fact is that the tigers understandably like to live off the three finals wins in short succession and at the time Martin was obviously red hot. In two of those games he was probably the most influential player on the field: had a tonne of ball and four goal assists in one, and kicked four in the other: a grand final. The third of those finals, the 2019 prelim, he was decent enough but not decisive, kicked two goals - one early on before Geelong took control of the game, had 22 touches, kicked one more goal, and Richmond - not unlike the grand final, controlled most of the game from about halfway through the third quarter.

But he’s not alone purely in finals terms. Luke Hodge played two sensational finals and like Martin, one was a grand final and one was a qualifier and both led to premierships while he was quieter relatively speaking in a prelim win. Jack Gunston kicked 3 in that prelim win and four in the qualifier win. Shaun Burgoyne played some big finals against us. So from Hawthorn alone we’ve had some tormentors that stack up to Martin’s level.

Without sounding conceited, the thing about winning as regularly as we do over the last 18 years, there aren’t THAT many teams or players who stitch you up regularly.

But I will give you a name of someone who has tormented us more than anyone else as far as simply dominating his position, influencing every game his team has won against us - right up until most recently, and who has unceremoniously dumped us out of the finals and also been massive in another finals win and after we beat Richmond this year, his win percentage against Geelong will go past both Martin and Hodge, as well as Gunston, Burgoyne etc:

Max Gawn.

 

[RUNVS]

I get the impression with Martin that if he was part of a bad team in his peak years he would not have done anywhere near as well. He is not the sort of player that really shows their best in a bad team.

 

[Rich01]

Looking objectively, the fact is that the tigers understandably like to live off the three finals wins in short succession and at the time Martin was obviously red hot. In two of those games he was probably the most influential player on the field: had a tonne of ball and four goal assists in one, and kicked four in the other: a grand final. The third of those finals, the 2019 prelim, he was decent enough but not decisive, kicked two goals - one early on before Geelong took control of the game, had 22 touches, kicked one more goal, and Richmond - not unlike the grand final, controlled most of the game from about halfway through the third quarter.

But he’s not alone purely in finals terms. Luke Hodge played two sensational finals and like Martin, one was a grand final and one was a qualifier and both led to premierships while he was quieter relatively speaking in a prelim win. Jack Gunston kicked 3 in that prelim win and four in the qualifier win. Shaun Burgoyne played some big finals against us. So from Hawthorn alone we’ve had some tormentors that stack up to Martin’s level.

Without sounding conceited, the thing about winning as regularly as we do over the last 18 years, there aren’t THAT many teams or players who stitch you up regularly.

But I will give you a name of someone who has tormented us more than anyone else as far as simply dominating his position, influencing every game his team has won against us - right up until most recently, and who has unceremoniously dumped us out of the finals and also been massive in another finals win and after we beat Richmond this year, his win percentage against Geelong will go past both Martin and Hodge, as well as Gunston, Burgoyne etc:

Max Gawn.

Thanks for answering for him Phat. Obviously realised the complexity of the question and wanted to ensure it was answered adequately. With 425+ post about Dusty in this thread alone I wouldn’t have thought you had too much more to say about Dustin, but indeed you still have, and he still seems to be in the forefront of your mind, even when the great man is in decline.

 

[Xtreme]

He is still 32 years old and plenty of midfielders are still near their peaks at that age. Martin looks almost done.

I've not seen any other player dominate to the level Dusty has in his career. He is the complete player and ultimate finals specialist.

 

[RUNVS]

I've not seen any other player dominate to the level Dusty has in his career. He is the complete player and ultimate finals specialist.

Don't you feel a bit embarrassed at being a Richmond toady?

 

[PhatBoy]

Thanks for answering for him Phat. Obviously realised the complexity of the question and wanted to ensure it was answered adequately. With 425+ post about Dusty in this thread alone I wouldn’t have thought you had too much more to say about Dustin, but indeed you still have, and he still seems to be in the forefront of your mind, even when the great man is in decline.

It’s Saturday night, I’m six deep and my missus won’t answer my messages. wtf else am I going to do

 

[Rich01]

It’s Saturday night, I’m six deep and my missus won’t answer my messages. wtf else am I going to do

Whatever brings you happiness bud.
All power to you.
I’m just stating the obvious though.

Genuinely though, have a great night.

 

[Xtreme]

Don't you feel a bit embarrassed at being a Richmond toady?

No need to be embarrassed when I'm on the right side of history. Dusty is the ultimate player and the GOAT.

 

[RUNVS]

No need to be embarrassed when I'm on the right side of history. Dusty is the ultimate player and the GOAT.

He has 4 All Australians, a tiny amount for a top line midfielder.

 

[Xtreme]

He has 4 All Australians, a tiny amount for a top line midfielder.

All Australians are just a media love in award these days any Tom, Dick or Harry has one.

 

[PhatBoy]

Whatever brings you happiness bud.
All power to you.
I’m just stating the obvious though.

Genuinely though, have a great night.

I actually think it’s a worthwhile topic. He’s obviously in the mix. We’ve had a lot of big games against Collingwood and Sydney but there’s been no stand out players from either team who’ve repeatedly given it to us and against the pies in particular we’ve probably had the better of it overall.

Buddy never really got hold of us; we always had players that kept him under wraps at both clubs

Gawn obviously you can’t match as a ruckman when you have Rhys Stanley but we’ve never even been able to find a way to stop him influencing general play and basically every loss we’ve had to Melbourne (6 from 15 games) has been centred around him

 

[RUNVS]

All Australians are just a media love in award these days any Tom, Dick or Harry has one.

As opposed to the Norm Smith?

At least the AA is properly discussed and analysed by many before the award is announced. Looking at the top AA award winners is a pretty good indication of the best players of the 21st century.

 

[HairyO]

I get the impression with Martin that if he was part of a bad team in his peak years he would not have done anywhere near as well. He is not the sort of player that really shows their best in a bad team.

He carried them to one of their flags. Houli deserved one of his Norm Smiths.

 

[RUNVS]

He carried them to one of their flags. Houli deserved one of his Norm Smiths.

Yep. I know the Norm Smith is a rather shitty award. LRT deserved it in 2005 and it instead went to the bigger name of Judd.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

He has 4 All Australians, a tiny amount for a top line midfielder.

An even tinier amount for the all time finals GOAT.

Tells you all you need to know about the value of AA selections.

 

[HairyO]

Yep. I know the Norm Smith is a rather shitty award. LRT deserved it in 2005 and it instead went to the bigger name of Judd.

LRT is proof that anyone tall can succeed in sport cos 'tall'.

 

[RUNVS]

LRT is proof that anyone tall can succeed in sport cos 'tall'.

LRT very nearly had 2 Norm Smiths. He was brilliant in 2005 and 2012.

May not be the greatest player to ever don Swans colours, but he would be one of the first picked if we were playing a Grand Final.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

As opposed to the Norm Smith?

At least the AA is properly discussed and analysed by many before the award is announced. Looking at the top AA award winners is a pretty good indication of the best players of the 21st century.

D Martin has:

- 43 of 45 possible Norm Smith Medal votes

- 28 of 30 possible coaches votes in his 3 GF's

So there is absolutely no doubt about the credibility of any awards he has won in Grand Finals.

- By a million miles the highest rate of coaches votes per game in finals since that system came into being in 2016. Like Dusty average over 6 per final, nobody else averages 3 per final.

- A rate of 5.33 goals + assists per full Grand Final whilst playing mainly midfield. Try to find anyone anywhere even within a bull's roar of that across multiple GF's this century - and achieved in low scoring finals.

- A deficit of 2.66 goals per game in Grand Finals versus the whole opposition teams. Ie they have kicked 18 between them in 3 matches, Dusty has scored 10 himself, basically every one of them a heavily contested goal. This is an all time record for a player playing in 3 or more Grand Finals. Only John Coleman in the whole history of the competition has a lower average across two GF's. And, just in case you hadn't noticed, John Coleman is John Coleman.

We could go on talking about average finals player ratings(Dusty's are astronomically higher than anyone else's) etc etc etc.

 

[Franc de Borges]

It’s Saturday night, I’m six deep and my missus won’t answer my messages. wtf else am I going to do

Six deep in what?

 

[PhatBoy]

Six deep in what?

Just beer

 

[RUNVS]

D Martin has:

- 43 of 45 possible Norm Smith Medal votes

- 28 of 30 possible coaches votes in his 3 GF's

So there is absolutely no doubt about the credibility of any awards he has won in Grand Finals.

- By a million miles the highest rate of coaches votes per game in finals since that system came into being in 2016. Like Dusty average over 6 per final, nobody else averages 3 per final.

- A rate of 5.33 goals + assists per full Grand Final whilst playing mainly midfield. Try to find anyone anywhere even within a bull's roar of that across multiple GF's this century - and achieved in low scoring finals.

- A deficit of 2.66 goals per game in Grand Finals versus the whole opposition teams. Ie they have kicked 18 between them in 3 matches, Dusty has scored 10 himself, basically every one of them a heavily contested goal. This is an all time record for a player playing in 3 or more Grand Finals. Only John Coleman in the whole history of the competition has a lower average across two GF's. And, just in case you hadn't noticed, John Coleman is John Coleman.

We could go on talking about average finals player ratings(Dusty's are astronomically higher than anyone else's) etc etc etc.

Even Richmond fans did not think he deserved the one in 2017. Go back and look, majority thought Houli was better.

 

[Franc de Borges]

Just beer

Lift. Tottenham are about to start.

 

[PhatBoy]

Lift. Tottenham are about to start.

I’d rather watch - and smoke - darts

 

[Franc de Borges]

I’d rather watch - and smoke - darts

I enjoy being permanently annoyed.

 

[RUNVS]

If you are a club and you line up every player drafted in the 21st century knowing what they have done in their careers I think the order would be something like

1. Buddy
2. Gary Ablett Jnr
3. Gawn
4. Hawkins
5. Scarlett
6. Judd
7. J.Riewoldt
8. Rance
9. Kennedy (West Coast)
10. Martin

Probably forgetting some players, but I would take the other 9 over Martin in a heartbeat.