Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[RUNVS]

Bottoming out is overrated. We've never had the picks for that calibre of player either and often the clubs that do fail to nail their rebuild and burden themselves to another rebuild.

Wasn't Hawthorns 4 premierships established on the back of bottoming out and getting some very good players with very high draft picks?

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Wasn't Hawthorns 4 premierships established on the back of bottoming out and getting some very good players with very high draft picks?

Wasn't it also before the FA era. The landscape has changed.
Bottoming out fails for most that turn to it, and it takes 5+ years before you even get to find that out.

 

[hawkman]

Wasn't Hawthorns 4 premierships established on the back of bottoming out and getting some very good players with very high draft picks?

Was also when if you had a really bad year you could get 2 top 5 picks.

 

[fishardansin]

Are the Hawks fans still in denial?

Clarko has been the coach of the decade, but I don't know what he's doing toping up like this. Putting off the rebuild and development is just going to make it take longer ... after you start too late. Things gonna get ugly. This reminds me of Essendon 15 years ago.

 

[Pessimistic]

Wasn't Hawthorns 4 premierships established on the back of bottoming out and getting some very good players with very high draft picks?

it wasn’t deliberate. Just found themselves there

 

[Bunk Moreland]

it wasn’t deliberate. Just found themselves there

Lol. Clarkson spent his first couple of years stripping the list of every experienced player to make way for the kids and draft picks. The only one who survived was Crawford. It was as deliberate and obvious a rebuild as there’s been.

 

[Ambrosia]

Wasn't Hawthorns 4 premierships established on the back of bottoming out and getting some very good players with very high draft picks?

With no priority picks there is much less incentive to bottom out

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Lol. Clarkson spent his first couple of years stripping the list of every experienced player to make way for the kids and draft picks. The only one who survived was Crawford. It was as deliberate and obvious a rebuild as there’s been.

Yes, but they weren't a middle of the road side that he deliberately allowed to bottom out to rebuild. The team he took over with all of the experience in it were terrible and the worst list in the comp. They had an older side that finished just a little percentage above the spoon. Hence a full rebuild was a necessity rather than an option.

 

[Pessimistic]

Lol. Clarkson spent his first couple of years stripping the list of every experienced player to make way for the kids and draft picks. The only one who survived was Crawford. It was as deliberate and obvious a rebuild as there’s been.

‘about half the 2008 premiership team were there when Clarkson arrived 2006 and 2007 drafts were busts

 

[Luv_our_club]

Hawthorn's first round picks at the "elite" end of the draft:

2019 Pick 13 - we used it
2018 Pick 18 - traded (for Wingard)
2017 Pick 7 - traded the year before (for Jaeger)
2016 Pick 16 - traded (for a brownlow medalist Mitchell)

You can call pick 7 an elite pick, but are the others elite picks? No, they are not.

We haven't had access to top ten draft picks. We are not ignoring it.

What this thread is really asking is: "Should Hawthorn tank, trade out their best players, and gain access to the elite end of the draft?"

Other clubs that were aspiring to rebuild since 2015 have somewhat tanked, and how are they doing? I would say they are doing not bad, but if you reach for elite picks it becomes a long long long road back to the top. Look at Freo, St Kilda, Melb, Port, Carlton.

One reason is that few Vic clubs can compete at the "elite end" of the draft against the northern based academy clubs who have a big advantage. It makes rebuilding via the draft a long long process.

It may be we should have tanked like other clubs. But we certainly haven't passed up taking elite players in the top 5 top 10 - we haven't had access to them.It is not our fault we haven't sucked consistently since 2005.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

"Hit the draft hard"
Question , does anyone realise the draft is valued now?
No longer can you trade out a player approaching retirement for a 1st rounder. Remember the Thompson and hay trades?

Lol. Clarkson spent his first couple of years stripping the list of every experienced player to make way for the kids and draft picks. The only one who survived was Crawford. It was as deliberate and obvious a rebuild as there’s been.

Hawthorn improved every year from 2004-2008, then again every year from 2009-2012. Hardly bottoming out

 

[RonnieRaven]

Why does he get all the credit? People make out he has some kind of secret power.

Stupid comment
He went back to back with centrals in the sanfl.
Then went to port and helped them get over the choke and win their first AFL flag.
Then won 4 with hawks.
So at the end of 2015 he had More then a flag every 2.5 years of his first 16 in coaching.
What a fluke!!

 

[StevoBruiser]

Stupid comment
He went back to back with centrals in the sanfl.
Then went to port and helped them get over the choke and win their first AFL flag.
Then won 4 with hawks.
So at the end of 2015 he had More then a flag every 2.5 years of his first 16 in coaching.
What a fluke!!

yeah I’m sure he played a huge hand in Port Adelaides flag, you’re reinforcing my point.
“stupid comment”

 

[RonnieRaven]

yeah I’m sure he played a huge hand in Port Adelaides flag, you’re reinforcing my point.
“stupid comment”

Just say you don’t like him.
Discrediting his coaching ability is very silly.
I don’t like the hawks but he is an amazing coach.
Clarkson was a key figure turning centrals from the Flagless Elizabeth scrappers to a 9 flag dynasty.
Hawks were a broke mess for ten years he came along and was a key part of another 4 flag dynasty.
In between he was at port for their only flag and players speak of him and Phil Walsh as much as Choco.
He’s either the luckiest coach that ever Lived.
Or a great coach.
I’ll take the latter and leave it at that.

 

[StevoBruiser]

Just say you don’t like him.
Discrediting his coaching ability is very silly.
I don’t like the hawks but he is an amazing coach.
Clarkson was a key figure turning centrals from the Flagless Elizabeth scrappers to a 9 flag dynasty.
Hawks were a broke mess for ten years he came along and was a key part of another 4 flag dynasty.
In between he was at port for their only flag and players speak of him and Phil Walsh as much as Choco.
He’s either the luckiest coach that ever Lived.
Or a great coach.
I’ll take the latter and leave it at that.

I’m not discrediting his ability, and I don’t mind him, what I hate are delusional hawthorn supporters constantly making stupid predictions that hawks will finish top 4 this year, and you ask why “ oh Clarko will have something planned don’t worry about that”
That’s great, I’m sure he has a plan, but you won’t get far, no matter your coaching abilities if half your list are average at best. Wingard isn’t going to help the cause.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

I’m not discrediting his ability, and I don’t mind him, what I hate are delusional hawthorn supporters constantly making stupid predictions that hawks will finish top 4 this year, and you ask why “ oh Clarko will have something planned don’t worry about that”
That’s great, I’m sure he has a plan, but you won’t get far, no matter your coaching abilities if half your list are average at best. Wingard isn’t going to help the cause.

We were told that in 2018 and yet managed it, also i think most Hawk fans think we are a 5th-11th type team as it stands.

What is delusional is acting like Scott with 1 flag taking over a team that was stacked and Bucks that also took over a team that i am consistently told was an amazing list and has yet to win a flag with them close to 10 years later is a better coach.

 

[Pessimistic]

I’m not discrediting his ability, and I don’t mind him, what I hate are delusional hawthorn supporters constantly making stupid predictions that hawks will finish top 4 this year, and you ask why “ oh Clarko will have something planned don’t worry about that”
That’s great, I’m sure he has a plan, but you won’t get far, no matter your coaching abilities if half your list are average at best. Wingard isn’t going to help the cause.

Plenty of predictions just like yours in 2009-2011 era too. How'd they go?

 

[Pessimistic]

yeah I’m sure he played a huge hand in Port Adelaides flag, you’re reinforcing my point.
“stupid comment”

Its the contrary. Clarko took the Port/Chocko model and made it work. It must annoy Chocko, who couldn't translate it to success at GWS

 

[Cadillac]

Hawthorn are fielding the oldest ever team in AFL/VFL history tonight.

But keep telling us about how good your youth is Hawthorn.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Hawthorn are fielding the oldest ever team in AFL/VFL history tonight.

But keep telling us about how good your youth is Hawthorn.

Just because the team is old doesn't mean there's no youth coming through.
Clarko hasn't fielded many kids in years, preferring to let the develop in the VFL.

It's frustrating for hawks fans that do see a lot of vfl

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Hawthorn are fielding the oldest ever team in AFL/VFL history tonight.

But keep telling us about how good your youth is Hawthorn.

Sigh yeah i wish we were a really young team so that we could be 1 year away from being dangerous like the Dees have been for the past 3 or 4 years.

And 1 year away from climbing the ladder like the Blues always are.

And 1 year away from top 4 like the Dogs always are.

 

[Cadillac]

Sigh yeah i wish we were a really young team so that we could be 1 year away from being dangerous like the Dees have been for the past 3 or 4 years.

And 1 year away from climbing the ladder like the Blues always are.

And 1 year away from top 4 like the Dogs always are.

Like anyone should take anything serious that comes out of your mouth. You‘ve been in no better position than the dogs have over the last 5 years.
The only thing keeping you relevant has been the ability to attract players from other clubs and free agency. If you’re not contending, that will change eventually.

Also, how’s Mitch Lewis going? Weren’t you telling me this time last year how good he was? Such a shame Clarko recruited Vickery 2.0 this year from GWS. And has to justify his decision by playing him instead of your youth.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Like anyone should take anything serious that comes out of your mouth. You‘ve been in no better position than the dogs have over the last 5 years.
The only thing keeping you relevant has been the ability to attract players from other clubs and free agency. If you’re not contending, that will change eventually.

Also, how’s Mitch Lewis going? Weren’t you telling me this time last year how good he was? Such a shame Clarko recruited Vickery 2.0 this year from GWS. And has to justify his decision by playing him instead of your youth.

He had shoulder surgery over the pre season and injured his ankle in the pre season, seems to have stalled his progress which is disappointing.

Patton has played 2 games in 2 years, probably harsh to go taking shots at him after just 2 games especially after out midfield gave him 0 opportunities last week.

I am not arguing the Hawks are in a good position, simply pointing out being young is overrated. Age doesn’t always lead to improved future performance.

 

[rei154]

I actually think we've got a really exciting list from a youth stand point- the problem is Clarko is very methodical with how he introduces them to AFL footy and I think in the next couple years that's going to be unsustainable.
The way I'm viewing it at the minute is-
Old players currently getting regular games who won't be in the side in two years:
Smith, Burgers, BB, Hendo, Frawley, Poppy, Stratts,
Young players who are waiting for their time to come in currently:
Lewis, Walker, Jones, Ross, Jeka, Moore, Nash, Day, Maginness, Pepper, Scrimshaw, Cj

Given we know Clarko extremely rarely lets a young player into the starting 22 as a permanent feature (Worps being the last) I'm expecting at least six of these young players to become regulars in the side- personally I'm really excited for Lewis, Jeka, Nash, Day, Maginness, Pepper, Scrimshaw and Cj to become mainstay players. My thinking on the situation is that Clarko is giving this core group as much time to build chemistry with eachother at the level down before they come into the side in a short period of time. This group combined with the youth already getting regular game time at the minute gives me a lot of hope in the Hawks system working for the next while.
I think Clarko is aiming for a hard push in the next two years to help justify the recruitment of players like Patton, Scully and Wingard (not that I think any of them need justifying at all) before we see the next really exciting period of growth and change within our club.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Biggest issue I see at the moment isn't what we've traded in - it's holding on to multiple=time premiership players who are well past their best. It's not 2015. Lewis, Scrimshaw and Jones should have got a run this week. Puopolo, Stratton and Henderson should have sat out this week.