Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Burtman]

You think the O'Meara trade was a good one?

They basically gave up 2016 picks 23 and 36 and 2017 picks 7 and 26 to get him

That is a lot of good draft picks for one player that has been okay

At least Wingard is looking like an AA player

They could have helped replenish the list with those picks.

We definitely overpaid on the O’Meara deal, especially with the injury that he had. But in the end he will probably captain the club and be a top 5 bnf player for 5+ years. Yeah losing pick 7 hurt, We obviously weren’t expecting to drop off that badly, but the rest of the picks are still a raffle. We’ve had plenty of first and second rounders go pear shaped

 

[TylerDurden]

We definitely overpaid on the O’Meara deal, especially with the injury that he had. But in the end he will probably captain the club and be a top 5 bnf player for 5+ years. Yeah losing pick 7 hurt, We obviously weren’t expecting to drop off that badly, but the rest of the picks are still a raffle. We’ve had plenty of first and second rounders go pear shaped

No regrets on that trade. Imagine our midfield without him at present?!!

 

[Ambrosia]

He came back early on the proviso he'd take over. Most know this.

I thought it was more to do with him not loving life in WA

 

[bird_man]

We definitely overpaid on the O’Meara deal, especially with the injury that he had. But in the end he will probably captain the club and be a top 5 bnf player for 5+ years. Yeah losing pick 7 hurt, We obviously weren’t expecting to drop off that badly, but the rest of the picks are still a raffle. We’ve had plenty of first and second rounders go pear shaped

Top 5 best and fairest just doesn't cut it for what they gave up for him though.

I agree that picks are often hit and miss, but we are talking 2nd round picks here, not picks in the 50's.

There were some very good players around those picks and even luck would get you at least one good player out of the 3.

And it's not as though the Hawks don't know how to draft.

 

[bird_man]

No regrets on that trade. Imagine our midfield without him at present?!!

Yes the present. What about the future?

O'Meara helps you be competitive right now, but Hawthorn could have started to buid a midfield for 10 years with those picks.

I can't see how any Hawthorn person would happily do that deal again.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

Yes the present. What about the future?

O'Meara helps you be competitive right now, but Hawthorn could have started to buid a midfield for 10 years with those picks.

I can't see how any Hawthorn person would happily do that deal again.

Eh you can't look at it in isolation, without O'meara does Mitchell agree to come to us as well?

I have no doubt he would have been part of the pitch to get him across.

We overpaid but we got a good player and a future leader. I can totally live with it, we have made worse decisions than that one.

 

[bird_man]

Eh you can't look at it in isolation, without O'meara does Mitchell agree to come to us as well?

I have no doubt he would have been part of the pitch to get him across.

We overpaid but we got a good player and a future leader. I can totally live with it, we have made worse decisions than that one.

I'm not looking at in all in isolation but I was replying to a post that said it was a good deal.

If I'm looking at everything as a whole I think Hawthorn have done it all the wrong way around.

They traded out most of their good draft picks to get players at the peaks of their career to go with a heap of 30 plus players.

They'll now likely hit the draft and have to hope that these players are still playing good footy by the time the kids taken in the draft start performing.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

I'm not looking at in all in isolation but I was replying to a post that said it was a good deal.

If I'm looking at everything as a whole I think Hawthorn have done it all the wrong way around.

They traded out most of their good draft picks to get players at the peaks of their career to go with a heap of 30 plus players.

They'll now likely hit the draft and have to hope that these players are still playing good footy by the time the kids taken in the draft start performing.

Well you are with the deal, I think it was an important part of the pitch to Mitchell and without it who knows if he comes.

The last part is a totally justifiable opinion, could definitely hurt us. Will have to wait and see.

 

[Burtman]

Top 5 best and fairest just doesn't cut it for what they gave up for him though.

I agree that picks are often hit and miss, but we are talking 2nd round picks here, not picks in the 50's.

There were some very good players around those picks and even luck would get you at least one good player out of the 3.

And it's not as though the Hawks don't know how to draft.

I actually don’t think our early drafting has been great of late. Day looks to be a player, but we also used a first on Lovell, our first picks on hartung and Daniel Howe, wasted a pick in the 30’s for garlett, tim obrien in the 20’s. We seem to have a better strike rate in the 40’s-60’s. Nothing against the guys that went at those picks but battle and long don’t improve us atm. Liam Ryan would be handy and hunter clarke looks like he’ll be a really good player. So as I said we overpaid abit but it probably looks worse than it actually is

 

[kranky al]

I thought it was more to do with him not loving life in WA

Saw an interview with him and he said wa wasnt in consideration because of travel and his knee.

 

[bird_man]

I actually don’t think our early drafting has been great of late. Day looks to be a player, but we also used a first on Lovell, our first picks on hartung and Daniel Howe, wasted a pick in the 30’s for garlett, tim obrien in the 20’s. We seem to have a better strike rate in the 40’s-60’s. Nothing against the guys that went at those picks but battle and long don’t improve us atm. Liam Ryan would be handy and hunter clarke looks like he’ll be a really good player. So as I said we overpaid abit but it probably looks worse than it actually is

I think that's the issue right there, looking at players that improve you right now instead of looking at 3 or 4 years down the track.

All those guys have played under 50 games.

I don't agree it looks worse than it is. If anything it might even end up looking worse than it does now.

 

[Burtman]

I think that's the issue right there, looking at players that improve you right now instead of looking at 3 or 4 years down the track.

All those guys have played under 50 games.

I don't agree it looks worse than it is. If anything it might even end up looking worse than it does now.

Well even though I like long I think he’ll be a role player not a star. Battle is still finding his feet and projects as more of a depth player than key plank. Ryan is a good forward pocket. Clarke has star potential but as I said earlier we wouldn’t of expected to hand over a pick that early to you. Don’t get me wrong you guys did really well out of the deal, but we got what we wanted in a player who is a potential captain, face of the club, consistent performer who’s polled double digit brownlow votes both years, was third in our bnf.

 

[Ambrosia]

Saw an interview with him and he said wa wasnt in consideration because of travel and his knee.

Im referring to Mitchell leaving West Coast not O’Meara coming to the Hawks

 

[kranky al]

Im referring to Mitchell leaving West Coast not O’Meara coming to the Hawks

Mah bad mah man

thanks for sam

any chance we can have him back while we are in the window and you are rebuilding - we will keep him warm for you?

 

[ChappyUK]

Well you are with the deal, I think it was an important part of the pitch to Mitchell and without it who knows if he comes.

The last part is a totally justifiable opinion, could definitely hurt us. Will have to wait and see.

I don't think JOM played a part. If you were 5th in the Swans midfield pecking order and you were offered S. Mitchell's spot I doubt you'd be thinking about JOM.

 

[Sonny Hayes]

I don't think JOM played a part. If you were 5th in the Swans midfield pecking order and you were offered S. Mitchell's spot I doubt you'd be thinking about JOM.

He would have had offers from other clubs, I know Carlton were sniffing around.

 

[bird_man]

Well even though I like long I think he’ll be a role player not a star. Battle is still finding his feet and projects as more of a depth player than key plank. Ryan is a good forward pocket. Clarke has star potential but as I said earlier we wouldn’t of expected to hand over a pick that early to you. Don’t get me wrong you guys did really well out of the deal, but we got what we wanted in a player who is a potential captain, face of the club, consistent performer who’s polled double digit brownlow votes both years, was third in our bnf.

None of those players solve your issues on their own, but all 4 would play a huge part to building your future as opposed to a pretty good midfielder who will be past his best when those guys are just coming into their peak.

All would fit a need once Hawthorn's abundance of 30 plus year olds finish up.

Not sure why you think Battle will be a depth player. He's already spent a season as a 20 year old holding down a key position role. Ryan is a huge talent also.

Clearly I'm not going to change your mind mate so I'm happy to move on.

I think you'll probably end up agreeing with me though when all these guys retire and O'Meara is nearing the end of his peak with very little quality youth coming up behind him.

 

[TylerDurden]

He would have had offers from other clubs, I know Carlton were sniffing around.

Big offer from Carlton apparently.

 

[TylerDurden]

I thought it was more to do with him not loving life in WA

Pressure from the missus to return home also, yes.

 

[Burtman]

None of those players solve your issues on their own, but all 4 would play a huge part to building your future as opposed to a pretty good midfielder who will be past his best when those guys are just coming into their peak.

All would fit a need once Hawthorn's abundance of 30 plus year olds finish up.

Not sure why you think Battle will be a depth player. He's already spent a season as a 20 year old holding down a key position role. Ryan is a huge talent also.

Clearly I'm not going to change your mind mate so I'm happy to move on.

I think you'll probably end up agreeing with me though when all these guys retire and O'Meara is nearing the end of his peak with very little quality youth coming up behind him.

but that’s the point of this thread, we haven’t been drafting for the future, it’s been about having one more crack before guys like Breust, gunston, frawley, McEvoy and smith retire, and those young guys might be really good in 3 years time but by that time we lost those players mentioned and we are a middle of the road side again. I’m happy for them to have one more crack but clearly when those guys finish up we’ll go back to a drafting First philosophy. We have to good a core of players to finish bottom 4 atm and without blatantly tanking we wouldn’t get our hands on any top 4 draft talent

 

[bird_man]

but that’s the point of this thread, we haven’t been drafting for the future, it’s been about having one more crack before guys like Breust, gunston, frawley, McEvoy and smith retire, and those young guys might be really good in 3 years time but by that time we lost those players mentioned and we are a middle of the road side again. I’m happy for them to have one more crack but clearly when those guys finish up we’ll go back to a drafting First philosophy. We have to good a core of players to finish bottom 4 atm and without blatantly tanking we wouldn’t get our hands on any top 4 draft talent

No, the point of this thread is asking whether Hawthorn can succeed while ignoring the draft.

I'm saying no.

I was using the O'Meara trade as an example.

That's great that you were happy for the Hawks to throw all their eggs in that basket and have one more crack, but IMO it was destined to fail and now the club is going to wait much longer before they are in a position to have a crack again.

Hawthorn have never looked like a premiership threat since trading away all those picks.

Those old guys would have been perfect mentors for next crop of kids coming through. You'd then still have Bruest and Gunston etc as leaders after the 30 plus had retired.

 

[Leeda]

Um you can't overspend when u get what u want..J.o.m...win hard...patto..drifting

 

[Burtman]

No, the point of this thread is asking whether Hawthorn can succeed while ignoring the draft.

I'm saying no.

I was using the O'Meara trade as an example.

That's great that you were happy for the Hawks to throw all their eggs in that basket and have one more crack, but IMO it was destined to fail and now the club is going to wait much longer before they are in a position to have a crack again.

Hawthorn have never looked like a premiership threat since trading away all those picks.

Those old guys would have been perfect mentors for next crop of kids coming through. You'd then still have Bruest and Gunston etc as leaders after the 30 plus had retired.

The odds were always against us, law of averages says you win one every 18 years so it’s probably not going out on a limb to say it won’t work, same could be said for plenty of teams. Geelong Looked shot in 2015, but they bought in mature talent like Dangerfield, touhy, Stewart, a 33 year old ablett etc and now look like a genuine premiership threat. we could’ve got rid of our better players with currency, went to the bottom of the ladder and got draft picks, but how has that worked for teams like Melbourne, st Kilda, Carlton, who haven’t looked like contending for the better part of a decade if not more? Who knows how spending that many years down the bottom affects the club culture and minds of the players.
I’m definitely not saying it’s been a success, and atm it’s not looking likely, but I’m not upset that they’ve tried

 

[Spook]

I'm not sure why people are saying Hawthorn has "ignored" the draft. When you trade you are still trading for players who were originally drafted. Hawthorn has heaps of early draft picks. If they play their best footy at Hawthorn then the only decision is what was traded for them. In the years of compromised drafts and Hawthorn finishing top or near the top we had to trade to get these picks. The philosophy is still to be shown to have worked or not.

Draft Pick #1 2011 Jon Patton
Draft Pick #1 2011md O'Meara
Draft Pick #1 2009 Scully
Draft Pick #6 2011 Wingard
Draft Pick #7 2016 Scrimshaw
Draft Pick #21 2011 Tom Mitchell - Pick 21 was a Father-Son so probably normally even earlier
Draft Pick #21 2013 Jarman Impey

 

[bird_man]

I'm not sure why people are saying Hawthorn has "ignored" the draft. When you trade you are still trading for players who were originally drafted. Hawthorn has heaps of early draft picks. If they play their best footy at Hawthorn then the only decision is what was traded for them. In the years of compromised drafts and Hawthorn finishing top or near the top we had to trade to get these picks. The philosophy is still to be shown as to have worked or not.

Draft Pick #1 2011 Jon Patton
Draft Pick #1 2011md O'Meara
Draft Pick #1 2009 Scully
Draft Pick #6 2011 Wingard
Draft Pick #7 2016 Scrimshaw
Draft Pick #21 2011 Tom Mitchell
Draft Pick #21 2013 Jarman Impey

Because they have mostly ignored the draft?

All players are drafted at some stage. Where Patton, Scully and O'Meara went in the draft 10 years ago has zero relevance now.