Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[WWSD]

Helped you win 4 flags mate

More than half of the Hawthorn premiership players under Clarkson were not first round picks.

 

[FairKouta]

More than half of the Hawthorn premiership players under Clarkson were not first round picks.

name me a premiership team that is diff to your premiership list in terms of core players being high draft picks. Richmond had a core of elite draft picks and surrounded by rookies/lower picks houli lambert. Take out dustin cotchin jack and lynch and prestia high draft picks they don’t win. Same for your team. Take out hodge roughie lewis cyril buddy you don’t win.
You need elite talent you either hit the draft or trade for them. Unfortunately currency to trade is limited for the Hawks.
Now clarko/professional organisation is no doubt the reason you guys won 4 but if you think you can win a premiership without a core of elite talent you have to be kidding me.
carlton had draft picks but we screwed up the picks/ our culture/ the way our club was run so only having draft picks won’t work.
you have clarko ffs just get some early draft picks trade for some and you are back.
For anyone that thinks the hawks will contend with the current list with a few trades/ limited early draft picks there is no chance.
hodge cyril buddy and even Mitchell generational players.you guys hit the jackpot. Hard to replicate that again.

 

[Bulldog1954]

More than half of the Hawthorn premiership players under Clarkson were not first round picks.

Like every premiership side of all time.

 

[Scotland]

Like every premiership side of all time.

Birchall, Crawford, Croad, Ellis, Franklin, Lewis, Roughead, Rioli, Hodge, Ladson, Schoenmakers, Smith, Bailey. 8 AAs in that list. Handy.

From memory Burgoyne, Hale, McEvoy, Frawley were first round picks once upon a time but traded players cost what they cost at the time. I think our drafted first round picks in 2018 was 5 (6 if you count Shuey) plus 2 traded in.

If the draft is the bases for winning a Premiership, then how come that strategy still hasn’t worked out for Carlton, Essendon, Melbourne, St Kilda etc?

Because those clubs aren't good at... anything?

Did Sydney's 2012-14 side come via the draft? They traded for Mattner, Shaw, Richards, Mumford, Kennedy, Morton, McGlynn but also gave up very little. Added Tippett and Franklin for only cap space and haven't won since. Drafted Mitchell (FS), Parker, Hannebery, Rohan (1st), Jetta (1st), Reid, McVeigh (1st), Malceski, Goodes, O'Keefe etc.

No team has really succeeded via the Boston Celtics 2008 path in the AFL since the draft took hold. Hence the thread. The probability of drafting a top player with an early pick is higher compared to a late one, everyone knows that. But it's not an exact science. Jack Watts 1, Michael Walters 53. But it's not feasible to trade in established stars each year. Clubs don't have the trade currency or the cap space. Draftees are a free hit. Cost nothing (draft picks are free) and only take up a list spot for two years at $100k.

 

[Dipper]

I maintain what I said a couple of years ago.
The recruiting of several older players wasn't to win a flag, but to put some sort of leadership in place to develop the next round of young players.

Everyone likes to point out Hawthorns success in the draft early in Clarkson tenure, but ignore that we had the likes of Smith, Dixon, Vandenberg, barker, even Crawford there who transitioned as the club climbed up.
This team is currently at the 2003/2004 structure, and in the next couple of years will hit the draft heavily

Why break the bank for JOM and Wingarf then?

Surely the leadership would be better coming from existing, older, 3 times premiership players.

On moto g(7) using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Pessimistic]

name me a premiership team that is diff to your premiership list in terms of core players being high draft picks. Richmond had a core of elite draft picks and surrounded by rookies/lower picks houli lambert. Take out dustin cotchin jack and lynch and prestia high draft picks they don’t win. Same for your team. Take out hodge roughie lewis cyril buddy you don’t win.
You need elite talent you either hit the draft or trade for them. Unfortunately currency to trade is limited for the Hawks.
Now clarko/professional organisation is no doubt the reason you guys won 4 but if you think you can win a premiership without a core of elite talent you have to be kidding me.
carlton had draft picks but we screwed up the picks/ our culture/ the way our club was run so only having draft picks won’t work.
you have clarko ffs just get some early draft picks trade for some and you are back.
For anyone that thinks the hawks will contend with the current list with a few trades/ limited early draft picks there is no chance.
hodge cyril buddy and even Mitchell generational players.you guys hit the jackpot. Hard to replicate that again.

nit picky but buddy did take himself out

funny thing is bigfooty is opinion based, but I never once saw (non hawthorn fans who take a keen interest in hawthorn) describe those players as ‘generational’ when they were in their prime.

which is why I don’t really rate current opinions either

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Why break the bank for JOM and Wingarf then?

Surely the leadership would be better coming from existing, older, 3 times premiership players.

On moto g(7) using BigFooty.com mobile app

Because for the most part, multiple premiership players lose that drive. We have seen that the past couple of yrs. Really the only premiership players of ours that have maintained any sort of standard to look up to are frawley and burgoyne.

Secondly, those premiership players you speak of are on retirements door. You need leaders who've been there a couple of yrs at least to set an example (unless they are Luke hodge).
Now, you'll suggest players like worpel could step up, but he is still developing his game. Look at Carlton and melbournes issues with forcing young kids to lead before they're ready.

 

[FairKouta]

nit picky but buddy did take himself out

funny thing is bigfooty is opinion based, but I never once saw (non hawthorn fans who take a keen interest in hawthorn) describe those players as ‘generational’ when they were in their prime.

which is why I don’t really rate current opinions either

nit picky but buddy did take himself out

funny thing is bigfooty is opinion based, but I never once saw (non hawthorn fans who take a keen interest in hawthorn) describe those players as ‘generational’ when they were in their prime.

which is why I don’t really rate current opinions either

Im pretty sure people were talking about cyril and buddy in their prime as generational, but really you only once you see a full body of work can you call a player generational. Ablett really didn’t cement his greatness until he went to the cats and proved he was one of the best to play the game. Your first flag doesn’t happen without buddy.

 

[TylerDurden]

Im pretty sure people were talking about cyril and buddy in their prime as generational, but really you only once you see a full body of work can you call a player generational. Ablett really didn’t cement his greatness until he went to the cats and proved he was one of the best to play the game. Your first flag doesn’t happen without buddy.

Most people still say Cyril never won enough of the footy. Will always be a question mark over his greatness.
I say 4 medals and a Norm say otherwise. And that's not taking into account his highlight reel and the fear of God he put into opposition players when in possession. His perceived pressure was off the charts. Past players are now starting to say it. They'd shit themselves when he was in the area.

A generational talent. Yes. But without the 30 odd touches to boot, from stat padding. Never had the tank to play full time midfield. But also never had the patience to rack up meaningless touches in the back half. He just wanted to impact and win games of footy. And flags. Which he did in spades.

Hawthorn royalty.

 

[FairKouta]

Most people still say Cyril never won enough of the footy. Will always be a question mark over his greatness.
I say 4 medals and a Norm say otherwise. And that's not taking into account his highlight reel and the fear of God he put into opposition players when in possession. His perceived pressure was off the charts. Past players are now starting to say it. They'd sh*t themselves when he was in the area.

A generational talent. Yes. But without the 30 odd touches to boot, from stat padding. Never had the tank to play full time midfield. But also never had the patience to rack up meaningless touches in the back half. He just wanted to impact and win games of footy. And flags. Which he did in spades.

Hawthorn royalty.

Hard to go past him as an impact player. In his position and role he was generational. My point is was taken early in the draft. Hit The draft hawks

 

[TylerDurden]

Hard to go past him as an impact player. In his position and role he was generational. My point is was taken early in the draft. Hit The draft hawks

Most agree would agree now

 

[Luv_our_club]

What this thread conveniently ignores is the fact that even if you agree the Hawks should hit the draft, we haven't actually qualified for picks in top dozen since before 2010.

The one year we did, pick 7 in 2017, came as a shock, and we had already traded our pick for JOM.

The next lowest pick, #13 in 2019, we used on Will Day.

The unspoken subtext to this thread is the suggestion that we should have traded out our stars for picks and spent a few years on the bottom of the ladder.

But nobody is actually saying that on here.

 

[Caj]

What this thread conveniently ignores is the fact that even if you agree the Hawks should hit the draft, we haven't actually qualified for picks in top dozen since before 2010.

The one year we did, pick 7 in 2017, came as a shock, and we had already traded our pick for JOM.

The next lowest pick, #13 in 2019, we used on Will Day.

The unspoken subtext to this thread is the suggestion that we should have traded out our stars for picks and spent a few years on the bottom of the ladder.

But nobody is actually saying that on here.

Hawks have remained in mid table mediocrity because Clarkson has deluded himself into thinking that he could squeeze another premiership out of the list.

$1m+ of salary cap space on Scully and Patten is a criminal waste for a club in Hawthorns position

Suggest you go back 40-50 pages and plenty of people were calling it

I’d still be happy if I was a Hawks fan because the 3 peat was phenomenal, but the failure to act earlier is going to set the recovery back a few years yet

 

[Luv_our_club]

Hawks have remained in mid table mediocrity because Clarkson has deluded himself into thinking that he could squeeze another premiership out of the list.

Suggest you go back 40-50 pages and plenty of people were calling it

I’d still be happy if I was a Hawks fan because the 3 peat was phenomenal, but the failure to act earlier is going to set the recovery back a few years yet

Yeah, exactly what i said. Please describe what "Act earlier" means. We know it is code for modern day tanking.

 

[Caj]

Yeah, exactly what i said. Please describe what "Act earlier" means. We know it is code for modern day tanking.

Sorry I just edited post

The recruitment of Scully and Patten was a complete waste of time even though their draft cost was relatively minor. Neither will play in your next premiership

Hitting the draft and playing kids instead of those 2 isn’t tanking, it’s just good list management

 

[Luv_our_club]

Sorry I just edited post

The recruitment of Scully and Patten was a complete waste of time even though their draft cost was relatively minor. Neither will play in your next premiership

Hitting the draft and playing kids instead of those 2 isn’t tanking, it’s just good list management

Patton - maybe.

You can't say that about Scully. People like Kane Cornes and other oppos supporters wanted an inquiry about how we got him.

 

[Caj]

Patton - maybe.

You can't say that about Scully. People like Kane Cornes and other oppos supporters wanted an inquiry about how we got him.

Scully has never been anything more than a b grader and never will be, particularly in a bottom 6 team.

You got him cheap because of his ankle injury

 

[Pessimistic]

Yeah, exactly what i said. Please describe what "Act earlier" means. We know it is code for modern day tanking.

tanking is poison. One year is bad. Do two and your club takes nearly a decade to recover. Not many clubs are doing it now, therefore valuable players cost more. The landscape is constantly changing. Lists will be reduced, that’s the new surge tide

 

[Pessimistic]

Patton - maybe.

You can't say that about Scully. People like Kane Cornes and other oppos supporters wanted an inquiry about how we got him.

‘which proves hawks detractors are just that, whatever argument they can get some traction with. I bet Cornes is singing a different tune now

 

[Luv_our_club]

Scully has never been anything more than a b grader and never will be, particularly in a bottom 6 team.

You got him cheap because of his ankle injury

You forget the reaction when we got him. And we just finished top 4 when we got him.


It is not like Hawk supporters don't understand why people are saying what they say on this thread. Like me, I think the issue we have is HOW people say it.

Please tell us to trade out our stars. Please tell us to bottom out. But people don't say that. People simply criticize how we played our very very very poor draft hand on the back of Clarkson's elite coaching. We never had access to high draft picks.


Perhaps we should have cut our list down, traded out, and stunk. I think we should have. But people don't say that. They want to criticize without any dirt on their own hands.

 

[Pessimistic]

Sorry I just edited post

The recruitment of Scully and Patten was a complete waste of time even though their draft cost was relatively minor. Neither will play in your next premiership

Hitting the draft and playing kids instead of those 2 isn’t tanking, it’s just good list management

‘yet players from certain clubs will never play ina premiership. Look at the clubs which didn’t win in the last 15y, there’s anaverage 25 year drought. That’s 4 generations of players

 

[Luv_our_club]

The landscape is constantly changing. Lists will be reduced, that’s the new surge tide

You and me are the only Hawks supporters i know singing this tune.

 

[Caj]

You forget the reaction when we got him. And we just finished top 4 when we got him.


It is not like Hawk supporters don't understand why people are saying what they say on this thread. Like me, I think the issue we have is HOW people say it.

Please tell us to trade out our stars. Please tell us to bottom out. But people don't say that. People simply criticize how we played our very very very poor draft hand on the back of Clarkson's elite coaching. We never had access to high draft picks.


Perhaps we should have cut our list down, traded out, and stunk. I think we should have. But people don't say that. They want to criticize without any dirt on their own hands.

To be honest that top 4 finish was pretty amazing with the list you had and shows how good Clarko is, but in the long run it was probably a bad thing

 

[Luv_our_club]

To be honest that top 4 finish was pretty amazing with the list you had and shows how good Clarko is, but in the long run it was probably a bad thing

Hawk supporters would have been okay to watch us win 5 games a year after 3 flags. IMO that is an opportunity wasted. But that would require "planning to lose" and that has hurt a lot of clubs culture and has resulted in decades of drought.

And we were just entering a new era of list builds - Free Agency / Academies and compromised drafts / and more player movement. There appeared a new method of staying competative.

In hindsight, perhaps the Hawks should have bottomed out.

But How did the Pies do it? Did they bottom out? No. Was it just father/son for them? It is possible.

The Hawks are still a few years behind Geelong and the Pies in their timeline. We can catch up.

 

[Bradkli]

Another pathetic performance...this week against Sydney’s NEAFL side...just so grim our list...our forward line and midfield are just so pathetic...