Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[hawkman]

So other than Bruest will hawks have any player over 30 next year? They will be very raw.

Might have a new favourite to finally steal the spoon off us

Both Wingard and Frost turn 30 next year

 

[footyfan1978]

Jeez this is a violent rejection of Clarko’s top-up strategy / obsession. Two straight years of trying everything they can to get rid of them.

No wonder they were so desperate to get Clarkson out asap and get on with undoing his work.

Just confirms their strategy was flawed when they sold the farm for O'Meara and conceded that top up strategy failed.
Need to cut your losses when you **** up and looks like they no longer fooling themselves.

Meek is nice pick up this off season.
Now the salary cap situation will be a bit more balanced and go about a genuine re-build now.

 

[Foucault1989]

Your mids are

Worpel - 23 years, 8 months
Moore - 23 years, 2 months
Newcombe - 21 years, 2 months
Ward - 19 years, 1 month

I have probably missed people but that is such a young midfield. It is asking a lot of them. Most lists that have midfields that young are in the bottom 4.

That is the worst midfield in the comp. No question.

 

[hawkman]

Just confirms their strategy was flawed when they sold the farm for O'Meara and conceded that top up strategy failed.
Need to cut your losses when you * up and looks like they no longer fooling themselves.

Meek is nice pick up this off season.
Now the salary cap situation will be a bit more balanced and go about a genuine re-build now.

It will be interesting what we do next off season. The Mitchell and O'Meara salary will be off our books, Wingard out of contract should give us enormous space to do something

 

[footyfan1978]

It will be interesting what we do next off season. The Mitchell and O'Meara salary will be off our books, Wingard out of contract should give us enormous space to do something

Not sure how many more years you still have to pay for O'Meara etc. but I sense it not pretty. Hopefully for your sake Freo have taken on most of it. But yeah, it just a matter of clean up the mess of the previous strategy as soon as possible. Wingard to be traded next season seems the last move to a total re-set

 

[footyfan1978]

That is the worst midfield in the comp. No question.

They have added Cooper Stephens so he will get opportunities at Hawks next season in the middle.

 

[RUNVS]

Not sure how many more years you still have to pay for O'Meara etc. but I sense it not pretty. Hopefully for your sake Freo have take on most of it. But yeah, it just a matter of clean up the mess of the previous strategy as soon as possible. Wingard to be traded next season seems the last move to a total re-set

Wingard is not the sort of player you want in a lower ranked team. He is an icing player, not a main course player. He is only useful if you are a team inside the top 8.

 

[Foucault1989]

They have added Cooper Stephens so he will get opporunties at Hawks next season in the middle.

Great....Cooper Stephens.....

 

[hawkman]

Not sure how many more years you still have to pay for O'Meara etc. but I sense it not pretty. Hopefully for your sake Freo have take on most of it. But yeah, it just a matter of clean up the mess of the previous strategy as soon as possible. Wingard to be traded next season seems the last move to a total re-set

Both Mitchell and O'Meara had 1 year left

 

[Bradkli]

I warned everyone 4 years ago...

this is worse than i ever thought would happen..heading into this years draft with only pick 6, will become 7 and 24 is simply a disaster. Picks 41, 48, 50 and 52 are irrelevant, especially with how weak this draft is. We needed at least another top 20 pick.

A midfield unit of: Newcombe, Ward, Moore, Nash, Maginness, Worpel, Stephens, Morrison, Amon and Pick 7 is as bad a midfield group as you will ever see. The midfield has never been more important and ours has never been worse. Newcombe will be tagged often next year, which is simply unfair for such a young player.

HOWEVER, i believe Sam Mitchell is the right man to take us forward. He's unfortunately left with the absolute destruction Clarkson and Wright left the club in.

Bottom 3 a lock next season. Bottom 4 the year after a lock as well.

We need to nail picks 7 and 24 this year and pray we finish last to get Harley Reid next year.

 

[Foucault1989]

I warned everyone 4 years ago...

this is worse than i ever thought would happen..heading into this years draft with only pick 6, will become 7 and 24 is simply a disaster. Picks 41, 48, 50 and 52 are irrelevant, especially with how weak this draft is. We needed at least another top 20 pick.

A midfield unit of: Newcombe, Ward, Moore, Nash, Maginness, Worpel, Stephens, Morrison, Amon and Pick 7 is as bad a midfield group as you will ever see. The midfield has never been more important and ours has never been worse. Newcombe will be tagged often next year, which is simply unfair for such a young player.

HOWEVER, i believe Sam Mitchell is the right man to take us forward. He's unfortunately left with the absolute destruction Clarkson and Wright left the club in.

Bottom 3 a lock next season. Bottom 4 the year after a lock as well.

We need to nail picks 7 and 24 this year and pray we finish last to get Harley Reid next year.

You've predicted this for years Bradkil against the tide of Hawthorn fans who claimed the draft is overrated and you'd top up back into premiership contention.

North Melbourne's list is in a healthier spot. This is as bad as it gets.

 

[eastfreo75]

I really think Hawks has done well.

Meek is a solid player, more draft picks, and future salary cap space.

 

[footyfan1978]

Wingard is not the sort of player you want in a lower ranked team. He is an icing player, not a main course player. He is only useful if you are a team inside the top 8.

They will probably trade him next season.
If O'Meara and Mitchell off the salary cap books after the end of 2023 they will go into 2023 Draft period finally set up to course correct in the right way.

 

[HairyO]

You've predicted this for years Bradkil against the tide of Hawthorn fans who claimed the draft is overrated and you'd top up back into premiership contention.

North Melbourne's list is in a healthier spot. This is as bad as it gets.

Who are the good Roos players?

The ones Freo let go without a fight ?

 

[Bradkli]

I really think Hawks has done well.

Meek is a solid player, more draft picks, and future salary cap space.

more draft picks?? Other than picks 7 and 24..we have picks 41, 48, 50 and 52 in an incredibly shallow draft.. we get fremantle's future second, which will be pick 28-32 at best.

The next two year's are going to be a massive grind.

 

[Blue1980]

Hawthorn live in this strange paradox where Tom Mitchell and JOM are both seen as absolute plodders by the general public yet are absolutely critical to the success of our season.

The only loss we cannot reasonably cover man for man at this stage is Gunston.

Not plodders, more like b graders who help you to 7-8 win sorta competitive lower mid table, basically helping stop you from bottoming out.

Now, this plan is ripping the band aid off and see if the other younger guys can take ownership and make it better.

 

[Foucault1989]

Who are the good Roos players?

The ones Freo let go without a fight ?

Well their young midfield group includes Thomas, LDU, Phillips, Simpkin plus adding Wardlow and Sheezel as a forward. They are all more talented options moving forward. Newcombe is a little jet but uncertain about the rest...

 

[RUNVS]

They will probably trade him next season.
If O'Meara and Mitchell off the salary cap books after the end of 2023 they will got into 2023 Draft period finally set up to course correct in the right way.

The problem with the current AFL rules though is it doesn't easily allow for teams to build war chests as the 18th ranked team has to pay almost as much salary cap wise as the team that finished 1st. War chests are almost a myth at this point.

 

[Tas]

North cut 12 players for no return

Hawthorn had 2 retire, 3 traded (obviously pending Mitchell and O'Meara)

Should at least be getting 2 early to mid seconds at least for those

Its not the same

In 2020 we cut 14 players and brought in 4 players.

The Good:
Higgins (traded)
Brown(traded)

The Bad:
Durdin (2022 MSD Carlton i think)
Wood (picked up by Saints)
Williams
McMillan
Pittard

The Ugly:
Ahern
Crocker
Hosie (MSD pick)
Jacobs (was shot physically, hadn't played in 2 years)
Vickers-Willis
Daw (Post bridge incident, struggled physically, Melbourne picked up, don't recall him playing)
Murphy

In:
Corr (GWS)
Stephenson (Collingwood)
Young (Dogs)
Atu (Collingwood)

The Ugly:
Vickers-Willis 6 games in 2020, 1 in 2019.
Ahern 6 games in 2020, 7 in 2019
none of the others really played

The Bad:
Pittard- 11 games in 2020
McMillan- 10 games in 2020 (would have been 29 or 30 i think, had injury problems last year)
Williams- 8 games in 2020
Wood- 8 games in 2020
Durdin- 3 games in 2020

Even though we sucked in the first half of the season, we were a lot better in the second half and the vibe was fairly positive from the outside, most of the guys we got rid of weren't playing, were injured or had extremely fringe roles with no real future prospects.

I think moving on Brown and Higgins was a mistake though. This was compounded by another 9 moved on in 2021

Tarrant (free agency/trade)
Shaun Atley
Trent Dumont (Port picked him up)
Dom Tyson (useless)
Will Walker (always injured)
Taylor Garner (always injured)
Tom Campbell (mediocre ruckman behind Goldy)
Menadue (should never have been recruited)
Charlie Ham (MSD pick)

With Cunners going down again with nut cancer and shoving Dumont out the door, Anderson missing pre-season with covid issues it exposed pressure on the midfield, we had a lot of young mids getting hurt.

If we kept Atley and Dumont from 2021 and McMillan, Higgins and Brown from 2020 and possibly Williams too, I think we would have been a lot more competitive but we were a bit thin on the inside, Greenwood has been more of a human octopus, he is tackling but not really helping much to get/move the ball. Simpkin was in poor form early on, he is really undersized against the bigger opposition inside mids and Phillips was down all year with glandular fever.

Generally speaking it wasn't who we moved on, it was the older players who remained, they didn't really provide the leadership/stability the younger players needed.

 

[hawkman]

The problem with the current AFL rules though is it doesn't easily allow for teams to build war chests as the 18th ranked team has to pay almost as much salary cap wise as the team that finished 1st. War chests are almost a myth at this point.

We kind of do if we are paying most of Mitchell and O'Meara's salary. Means $1m is freed up for 2024

 

[RUNVS]

Why did I think Lloyd Meek was Sudanese? That man is clearly not Sudanese.

 

[footyfan1978]

The problem with the current AFL rules though is it doesn't easily allow for teams to build war chests as the 18th ranked team has to pay almost as much salary cap wise as the team that finished 1st. War chests are almost a myth at this point.

I'm not talking war chest. I never have used the term. This is about cleaning up a mess of the period they sold the farm for O'Meara and then went after Wingard in this weird strategy that thought they could win a flag with no need to use early draft picks to re-build.
The chooks have come home to roost for them in last few years about all that and better late than never they the get stuck into the clean up from that mess. Another player movement period next year and think they will have clean air from that flawed strategy.

 

[Blue1980]

It’s taken most of them 5 years to realise how horrific our list is and how much Clarko and wright destroyed the list in their final years but at least they now realise how long the journey ahead will be.

End of next year will be 8 years since a finals win. It will be 10+ before our next. We have no choice but to be patient. At least we know we have the right man at the helm who is doing what should have been done 4-5 years ago.

Ideal scenario after 2016 would of been to keep experienced guys around and hit the draft at the same time, rather than sell the farm for the likes of JOM, Mitchell, Wingard, then taking injury broken down Scully and Patton.

Instead experienced guys sold off for not much and replaced with worse leaders/players in most cases.

I consider Mitchell a success and wingard passable, and JOM a disaster deal of Tim Kelly proportions. In terms of other Clarko era deals Scrimshaw ok, Henderson good value, impey ok.

I said it at the time, it smacked of Clarko thinking he couldn’t be bothered with another rebuild and trying to moneyball a flag.

I see what’s happening now is Sam Mitchell’s total rejection of what Clarko was doing 16-21 and that he has a similar opinion of it to I have, that it basically set the club back years.

 

[NetworkNerd]

Load up on the Hawks for the spoon.

Worst midfield in the comp somehow got a crap load worse

 

[eastfreo75]

more draft picks?? Other than picks 7 and 24..we have picks 41, 48, 50 and 52 in an incredibly shallow draft.. we get fremantle's future second, which will be pick 28-32 at best.

The next two year's are going to be a massive grind.

Lions need more points and you can trade up your later picks.

Yes, two years will be a grind but I think no pain no gain.

Seems like you have the spine in place and just needs to get a few stars in the middle.