Welcome to East Germany Carlton and Collingwood - who finishes higher in 2023? Collingwood Ofcourse

[PieLebo87]

On expensive mansions and s**t like that.

Oh and streaming the last two minutes of 2018

You’ll probably have to stop relying on that since next year marks 5 years. Even Collingwood supporters have stopped bringing up our Preliminaryship against the Tigers because it’s probably passed it’s use by date.

Must be painful being the second best team in the state behind Fremantle though.

 

[PieLebo87]

It's a pretty good best 22 tbh, upon seeing it in front of me I can appreciate it being pretty bloody even all over the ground; where I'm happy to admit guys like Cottrell, Fisher & Durdin haven't done enough to convince opposition supporters. However I believe our star power is more prevalent.

Don’t disagree - your star power trumps ours. Would love to have a Cripps/Walsh in the guts or a Curnow/Mackay up forward. That’s where it ends in my books though.

I honestly don't know who your bottom 6 would be from that? Noble, Johnson.....?????

Every club has scapegoats for opposition fans. For some reason Noble is the one from Collingwood yet he goes unrewarded for what he brings to the team. Particularly ours with our slingshot game plan where he is integral in providing the run and carry/speed on the counter.

Not on Saad’s level, but for context, check his stats against Saad’s, who was AA this year and named as one of the two best HBFers in the competition -



Whilst not on Saad’s level - hardly embarrassing numbers up against the 2022 AA HBFer.

As you said, hard to pick Collingwood’s bottom 6 because of the evenness of the best 22.

Outside the top 4-5 players, Collingwood trumps the Blues across a 22, thus the high position, more wins and the 8 points between the two sides. Simple minds will talk margins, but it’s the truth at the end of the day.

However, I think this is an incredibly uninspiring group of depth players, I see them as no better than ours, in fact that's probably worse than the ones I listed for us (which was J Martin, Boyd, O'Brien, Marchbank, Owies, Setterfield, Honey, Cuningham, Plowman, Dow, Kemp, Carroll, Ed Curnow, Fogarty).

You’re also harsh on our 23-30 group. If they were the bottom 6 of the 22, you’d obviously have a higher impression since they’re getting game.

You have to remember that Carmichael came on in the last quarter as a sub against Essendon and kicked two integral goals. He has shown plenty in the few games he has played at the highest level.

Cox (left) would be borderline your #1 ruckman if he was at the Blues and his numbers stack up well against Pittonet (right) considering he shares his ruck duties fairly evenly with Cameron, thus the lower hitout numbers -



McCreery (left) would be getting a game ahead of Motlop (right) if he was in your f50 -



I could make a case for WHE and Kreuger but it’s more subjective and difficult to prove.

The youngsters just can’t get into Collingwood’s best 22.

Verdict:

Collingwood have the upper hand on an even, balanced and well-rounded 22, however it drops off after that.

Drops off in your opinion because you haven’t seen enough of the younger players as Fly is playing his best team vs Buckley giving the youngsters more game time last year.

Carlton have the upper hand on star power, however it drops off in the bottom few of the 22, but depth through the 25-35 range of players is superior.

We can discuss this further if you wanted to make a comparison of the 23rd to 30th player. I reckon Collingwood has the better depth all the way through to the 30th player.

Both teams to play finals next year, maybe even top 4. To finish on the exact same out of wins and %.

Could you imagine a 3rd and 4th finish for a QF at the ‘G?

I do think Collingwood need to pinch a flag before Pendles signs off though, I reckon there will be a drop once his influence departs the club. Not just on-field, but standards and culture and all that.

Agreed. I think Moore has shown plenty as a leader this year, as has Crisp. Adams had been the next captain in waiting for a couple of years, so his leadership out there is still relevant, even if he doesn’t get the captaincy in 2023. We’ve got leadership and there’s also leadership in the younger group in Nick Daicos, Brayden Maynard and Pat Lipinski they’ll get more exposure as the older heads retire.

 

[PieLebo87]

All outside of maybe Hill are better than Obrien, Cottrell and Owies. Those are 3 bill holes we need to fill or those players need to improve. Completely limits our ball movement as none provide quality ball movement for us and leave it to our inside mids and half backs far too often.

If you’re only able to pick a bottom 5, with McStay and Hill as 2/5, who haven’t even played a game for Collingwood yet, then gee wiz we’ve got a quality/balanced 22.

Even with Noble as a bottom 5 - refer to my above response comparing his numbers to Saad, who was this year’s AA HBF. Not bad considering Saad was one of your best, and Noble is meant to be a bottom 5 player for the Pies.

 

[kranky al]

You’ll probably have to stop relying on that since next year marks 5 years. Even Collingwood supporters have stopped bringing up our Preliminaryship against the Tigers because it’s probably passed it’s use by date.

Must be painful being the second best team in the state behind Fremantle though.

Ill hang on to it as long as i like my wife likes it too sheed like to watch it again - it was grand.

 

[PieLebo87]

Ill hang on to it as long as i like my wife likes it too sheed like to watch it again - it was grand.

Fair enough - sounds like my older brother (Born in ‘77) carries on about Peter Daicos and that 1990 finals series where he single-handedly took care of the Eagles twice on the way to our premiership.

 

[Fadge]

Fair enough - sounds like my older brother (Born in ‘77) carries on about Peter Daicos and that 1990 finals series where he single-handedly took care of the Eagles twice on the way to our premiership.

Peter Sumich was the key factor in that Collingwood premiership.

He should be a Collingwood Hall of Famer.

 

[Corn Cobbers]

Ill hang on to it as long as i like my wife likes it too sheed like to watch it again - it was grand.

Your two-win season was pretty grand too

Not sure if the Pies have ever had a two-win season, I'm guessing not

 

[leon123]

Your two-win season was pretty grand too

Not sure if the Pies have ever had a two-win season, I'm guessing not

To be fair... me reckons WC supporters are good sports,

We've had some literally epic games in the past.

Love the friendly rivalry (disclaimer... lived in WA for about 5 years and wife from perth)

 

[kranky al]

Your two-win season was pretty grand too

Not sure if the Pies have ever had a two-win season, I'm guessing not

Cant hear you over the sound of your hearts breaking as sheed slots the most impossible goal

 

[PieLebo87]

Cant hear you over the sound of your hearts breaking as sheed slots the most impossible goal

Not even the most impossible goal between these two sides in a final, let alone ever…

Now this… wowee…

 

[calman]

At least the talent we pay to play for and against us are earning their money… where the f is WCE’s $13.5m going?

paying off those player who won the 2018 grand final

 

[Freomaniac]

Adam Cerra - Missed 4 games
Zac Williams - Missed 13 games
Matt Kennedy - Missed 5 games
Harry Mckay - Missed 3 games
Mitch Mcgovern - Missed 15 games
Jack Martin - Missed 10 games
Caleb Marchbank - Missed 18 games
Jacob Weitering - Missed 5 games
Marc Pittonet - Missed 15 games
David Cuningham - Missed 22 games
George Hewett - Missed 7 games

While true we got a good run with Cripps, Saad, Docherty and Curnow, our best players were absolutely gutted at stages.

I could break it down further and clump them up such as when Walsh, Hewett and Cerra were all missing at the same time decimating our midfield, or the stage where Durdin, Mcdonald, Weitering, Mcgovern, Marchbank and Plowman, hell even Mirkov and Akuie who are VFL players at best were all injured at once compiled with the lack of availabilty from Liam Jones. We were forced to play Brodie Kemp, a prospective inside mid as our CHB as we didn't have a single other player above 190cm available. There was also the time Mckay, Weitering, Pittonet were all injured together for a month, I could go on and on really.

The timing of these injuries makes a huge difference. Covering for one or two players at once is simple enough. When all of them happen at the same time and compile to the point where even your depth is unavailable, and the back ups of the back ups are also unavailable... Yeah makes a bit of a difference.

Funnily enough nearly all of these occurred in the 2nd half of the season... Right as our form dramatically dropped must just be coincidence though.

Well I know Cerra is a solid mid.

McKay missed 3 games. Still he kicked 45 goals and 31 behinds

McGovern? Well you got 2 solid Tall forwards in curnow and mckay.

Martin missing 10 games hurts as he is in your best 22.

Marchbank and Pittonett out hurts your backline.

Weitering out injured, thats your full back

 

[OniAu]

Hope these two teams make finals next year. Both play exciting football.

Blues have two capable forwards to destroy a game on their own. Plus a solid mifield, Cripps is amazing to watch when on song.

I didnt expect pies to have a year like they did this year. Despite no "big name" signings coming to us. I feel like we are plugging some holes/adding depth with the recruits in

Hill - Works in with ginni up forward as another style of small forward with pace. Pushes McCreery up the ground hopefully. Will fit our run and gun/space style perfectly.
McStay - Gives us versatility , plus puts Mihocek down a rung in the forward pecking order to not have to cop the number 1 key defender week in week out
Frampton - Massive hit with no risk in bringing in.
Mitchell - This one would improve us , we get killed in clearances , if we have T Mitchell roaming around dishing out to De Goey & the Daicos bros , it will improve us hugely.
Hayes - Gives a bit of ruck depth if required , see Frampton

Losing Grundy whilst hurts , we had him for stuff all this year, does he get us over the line in the prelim? Possibly. Does the offset of losing his contract and paying out a portion to another club make us better? Probably not. I can see where the club is going though in releasing him. Has a bit of Treloar feel about it. Eddie really made a mess of this club in the later years.

Blues top 4

Pies 3 to 6

2022 was amazing footy , hope 2023 brings it also

 

[JyeDye]

Don’t disagree - your star power trumps ours. Would love to have a Cripps/Walsh in the guts or a Curnow/Mackay up forward. That’s where it ends in my books though.



Every club has scapegoats for opposition fans. For some reason Noble is the one from Collingwood yet he goes unrewarded for what he brings to the team. Particularly ours with our slingshot game plan where he is integral in providing the run and carry/speed on the counter.

Not on Saad’s level, but for context, check his stats against Saad’s, who was AA this year and named as one of the two best HBFers in the competition -

View attachment 1521764

Whilst not on Saad’s level - hardly embarrassing numbers up against the 2022 AA HBFer.

As you said, hard to pick Collingwood’s bottom 6 because of the evenness of the best 22.

Outside the top 4-5 players, Collingwood trumps the Blues across a 22, thus the high position, more wins and the 8 points between the two sides. Simple minds will talk margins, but it’s the truth at the end of the day.



You’re also harsh on our 23-30 group. If they were the bottom 6 of the 22, you’d obviously have a higher impression since they’re getting game.

You have to remember that Carmichael came on in the last quarter as a sub against Essendon and kicked two integral goals. He has shown plenty in the few games he has played at the highest level.

Cox (left) would be borderline your #1 ruckman if he was at the Blues and his numbers stack up well against Pittonet (right) considering he shares his ruck duties fairly evenly with Cameron, thus the lower hitout numbers -

View attachment 1521774

McCreery (left) would be getting a game ahead of Motlop (right) if he was in your f50 -

View attachment 1521780

I could make a case for WHE and Kreuger but it’s more subjective and difficult to prove.

The youngsters just can’t get into Collingwood’s best 22.



Drops off in your opinion because you haven’t seen enough of the younger players as Fly is playing his best team vs Buckley giving the youngsters more game time last year.



We can discuss this further if you wanted to make a comparison of the 23rd to 30th player. I reckon Collingwood has the better depth all the way through to the 30th player.



Could you imagine a 3rd and 4th finish for a QF at the ‘G?



Agreed. I think Moore has shown plenty as a leader this year, as has Crisp. Adams had been the next captain in waiting for a couple of years, so his leadership out there is still relevant, even if he doesn’t get the captaincy in 2023. We’ve got leadership and there’s also leadership in the younger group in Nick Daicos, Brayden Maynard and Pat Lipinski they’ll get more exposure as the older heads retire.

Noble is 180cm yet he still is able to drop his knees and get a high free kick at will. Absolute GOAT. How many kicks do you think came off that? Probably about 5 a game.

 

[carlton_99]

Well I know Cerra is a solid mid.

McKay missed 3 games. Still he kicked 45 goals and 31 behinds

McGovern? Well you got 2 solid Tall forwards in curnow and mckay.

Martin missing 10 games hurts as he is in your best 22.

Marchbank and Pittonett out hurts your backline.

Weitering out injured, thats your full back

McGovern was set to be our only intercept defender for us in 2022 - not a forward. Pittonet is a ruck as well not a defender.

People seem to be focusing on the injuries overall but think context is important. The 2 weeks Walsh was out or the 3 Cerra was out dont sound line much but in those last two games against Dees and Pies it was combined with Hewett and Kennedy out. That's 60% of our 5 centre square mids out in the last two games. Always going to be difficult to cover that.

Similarly with the defence all year it was one in and one out which disrupts any chance of building cohesion under a new coach. Then the Pittonet out meant TDK had to be no.1 ruck and had not yet developed to play a full game in the ruck. Meant JSOS and Cripps had to take some ruck duties and in the case of JSOS especially he could no longer play that connecting role between the midfield and forward.

And I am not saying this doesn't happen with other clubs but Its why looking at just games missed is not a very effective way of determining the impact of injuries.

 

[PieLebo87]

Noble is 180cm yet he still is able to drop his knees and get a high free kick at will. Absolute GOAT. How many kicks do you think came off that? Probably about 5 a game.

When this is your response, I know I’ve already won the argument

 

[JyeDye]

When this is your response, I know I’ve already won the argument

I didn't even read it to be honest.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Don’t disagree - your star power trumps ours. Would love to have a Cripps/Walsh in the guts or a Curnow/Mackay up forward. That’s where it ends in my books though.



Every club has scapegoats for opposition fans. For some reason Noble is the one from Collingwood yet he goes unrewarded for what he brings to the team. Particularly ours with our slingshot game plan where he is integral in providing the run and carry/speed on the counter.

Not on Saad’s level, but for context, check his stats against Saad’s, who was AA this year and named as one of the two best HBFers in the competition -

View attachment 1521764

Whilst not on Saad’s level - hardly embarrassing numbers up against the 2022 AA HBFer.

As you said, hard to pick Collingwood’s bottom 6 because of the evenness of the best 22.

Outside the top 4-5 players, Collingwood trumps the Blues across a 22, thus the high position, more wins and the 8 points between the two sides. Simple minds will talk margins, but it’s the truth at the end of the day.



You’re also harsh on our 23-30 group. If they were the bottom 6 of the 22, you’d obviously have a higher impression since they’re getting game.

You have to remember that Carmichael came on in the last quarter as a sub against Essendon and kicked two integral goals. He has shown plenty in the few games he has played at the highest level.

Cox (left) would be borderline your #1 ruckman if he was at the Blues and his numbers stack up well against Pittonet (right) considering he shares his ruck duties fairly evenly with Cameron, thus the lower hitout numbers -

View attachment 1521774

McCreery (left) would be getting a game ahead of Motlop (right) if he was in your f50 -

View attachment 1521780

I could make a case for WHE and Kreuger but it’s more subjective and difficult to prove.

The youngsters just can’t get into Collingwood’s best 22.



Drops off in your opinion because you haven’t seen enough of the younger players as Fly is playing his best team vs Buckley giving the youngsters more game time last year.



We can discuss this further if you wanted to make a comparison of the 23rd to 30th player. I reckon Collingwood has the better depth all the way through to the 30th player.



Could you imagine a 3rd and 4th finish for a QF at the ‘G?



Agreed. I think Moore has shown plenty as a leader this year, as has Crisp. Adams had been the next captain in waiting for a couple of years, so his leadership out there is still relevant, even if he doesn’t get the captaincy in 2023. We’ve got leadership and there’s also leadership in the younger group in Nick Daicos, Brayden Maynard and Pat Lipinski they’ll get more exposure as the older heads retire.

I think I'm reading these comparisons a bit different to you.
While you haven't claimed them as equals, the Saad/Noble one chops off some fairly important stats for Saad's role. Disposal efficiency, rebounds, 1%ers, bounces metres gained, intercepts.
Not to try and put Noble down. I actually like him and you'd expect that he probably still has improvement in him, but a lot of what Saad does can't be measured in stats either. He gets to a lot of contests where you think he's completely out of it. He either intercepts, knocks the ball out of bounds, or halves and then wins a loose ball that should've been a clear opposition possession.

The Cox/Pitto one is just... no!
Cox wouldn't be getting a game with us, period. Pitto's numbers are a little deceiving. He was performing much better prior to his injury and was clearly hampered on return. The hitout numbers might be reasonably close, but what doesn't show here is the hitouts to advantage and the advantage win %.
Pitto gets 8.8 h/outs to adv (41.7%). Prior to injury, that was over 11 and was leading the league. He was also getting 5-6 clearances a game and was ranked high for score involvements and score launches.
Even TDK is getting 6.6 h/outs to adv (at 36.2%)
Cox is getting 4.4 to advantage at 26.2%.
Cox probably does a little more around the ground, but I'm not sure how helpful that is when going at 58% efficiency. Doesn't he handball a lot after taking a mark?

McCreery vs Motlop doesn't seem to be a fair comparison either. I'm only guessing based on the numbers, but it looks to me like McCreery might push up the ground a fair bit more? Nearly half as many goals on average, but more inside 50s, clearances, rebound 50s, metres gained, bounces (not a lot of metres to be gained in the F50 and not a lot of room to bounce the ball). So all that extra work up the ground and around the ball for 0.5 more effective disposals and less than a goal a game. Motlop was doing this as an 18yo. McCreery as a 21yo. McCreery also had the consistency of playing 22 games, to Motlop's 12. I'd like to think that Motlop will be punching out better numbers in 2-3 years.
I could make a strenuous argument that McCreery isn't much chop by comparing him to Zac Fisher.

 

[4tone]

you're not ahead of us in depth oh man your team has absolutely none of it.

Point off a grannie and you think there's no depth and substance to the list. You sure you know what your talking about. Can I remind you the Blues haven't been in finals since 2013. Pies since then have been in 5 with 3prlims and 30seconds from premiers. Man wake up your club is s**t.

 

[4tone]

Nope. i was thinking how in the heck we had won so many, or rather how had so many lost to us. we were barely playing a quarter of good footy a game - basically fluking wins until the good teams switched on. our first half of the season was basically like collingwood's full season. an illusion of competence. beating geelong was more about them, less about us. no illusions. picked us to finish 14th at start of the year and the second half showed that is the reality. your reality will be shown next season imo - just not enough talent to sustain another year like this one. but we'll have to wait and see. not green about collingwood's season - it was exciting to watch an battler rolling sixes game after game. luck turned against them in finals but at least they played their hearts out.

If you think luck had any baring in what your and my team achieved this year, then fairytales do come true in your world. Pies will strengthen their position further whilst the sainters will be digging for gold in a sewerage farm as per usual. Enjoy.

 

[PieLebo87]

you're not ahead of us in depth oh man your team has absolutely none of it.

Wowee!

 

[PieLebo87]

I think I'm reading these comparisons a bit different to you.
While you haven't claimed them as equals, the Saad/Noble one chops off some fairly important stats for Saad's role. Disposal efficiency, rebounds, 1%ers, bounces metres gained, intercepts.
Not to try and put Noble down. I actually like him and you'd expect that he probably still has improvement in him, but a lot of what Saad does can't be measured in stats either. He gets to a lot of contests where you think he's completely out of it. He either intercepts, knocks the ball out of bounds, or halves and then wins a loose ball that should've been a clear opposition possession.

No doubt - Saad does a lot that the stats sheet doesn’t show. My point was more so that Noble is viewed as a bottom 5-6 player, and still provides really good output. Just wanted to validate the point of how even our 22 is more so than making it about Noble v Saad. Noble’s numbers are pretty decent whilst not even being a top 10-15 player for the Pies.

The Cox/Pitto one is just... no!
Cox wouldn't be getting a game with us, period. Pitto's numbers are a little deceiving. He was performing much better prior to his injury and was clearly hampered on return. The hitout numbers might be reasonably close, but what doesn't show here is the hitouts to advantage and the advantage win %.
Pitto gets 8.8 h/outs to adv (41.7%). Prior to injury, that was over 11 and was leading the league. He was also getting 5-6 clearances a game and was ranked high for score involvements and score launches.
Even TDK is getting 6.6 h/outs to adv (at 36.2%)
Cox is getting 4.4 to advantage at 26.2%.
Cox probably does a little more around the ground, but I'm not sure how helpful that is when going at 58% efficiency. Doesn't he handball a lot after taking a mark?

Taking nothing away from Pittonet, but surely you can acknowledge having guys like Cripps, Walsh, Hewett, Cerra and Kennedy crumbing yours or the opposition ruckman’s taps, you’re going to look like a bloody superstar. You’re probably giving Pittonet far too much credit for what those midfielders are delivering for the Blues out of the middle.

As a comparison, we’re not a strong clearance side, and with one of the better ruckmen in the competition in Grundy, we still didn’t have great clearance numbers. A ruckman’s role is important, but a ruckman is only as good as the inside mids around him and they glorify the stats you just shared.

Cox has been a better ruckman than Cameron this year (Cameron has been better around the ground) and for Collingwood to be willing to trade out Grundy and rely on Cox/Cameron tells you just how dependable those guys are in the ruck, without being spectacular.

Cox has had an alright season and I’d go with him over Pittonet because he probably offers abit more around the ground on top. Not a big deal which way you/I go, as neither are even top 10-15 for either of their respective sides.

McCreery vs Motlop doesn't seem to be a fair comparison either. I'm only guessing based on the numbers, but it looks to me like McCreery might push up the ground a fair bit more? Nearly half as many goals on average, but more inside 50s, clearances, rebound 50s, metres gained, bounces (not a lot of metres to be gained in the F50 and not a lot of room to bounce the ball). So all that extra work up the ground and around the ball for 0.5 more effective disposals and less than a goal a game. Motlop was doing this as an 18yo. McCreery as a 21yo. McCreery also had the consistency of playing 22 games, to Motlop's 12. I'd like to think that Motlop will be punching out better numbers in 2-3 years.
I could make a strenuous argument that McCreery isn't much chop by comparing him to Zac Fisher.
View attachment 1522280

Ginnivan would probably be a more accurate comparison to Motlop and that’s a non-contest based purely on the vastly superior goal kicking difference alone.

Fair enough re McCreery vs Fisher but just like you mentioned the age/games difference between Motlop/McCreery, the same applies with Fisher/McCreery. Fisher has been in the system for 6 seasons and has almost 100 games to his name. This is probably as good as we’ll see from Fisher whereas McCreery just played his first full AFL season and only turned 21 in the middle of the season.

 

[carlton_99]

This is probably as good as we’ll see from Fisher

Why? No reason to think a player reaches their peak at 24 and shows no improvement from then on.

 

[PieLebo87]

Why? No reason to think a player reaches their peak at 24 and shows no improvement from then on.

Was more the 80-100 game mark. Not so much the age. If he hasn’t shown anything special in glimpses by now, it won’t appear happen for a player in the next 100 games.

 

[carlton_99]

Was more the 80-100 game mark. Not so much the age. If he hasn’t shown anything special in glimpses by now, it won’t appear happen for a player in the next 100 games.

Thought he had a great year as a high half forward. Was our most improved player imo. Played a crucial role for us as well in the midfield when called upon due to injury.