carlton implodes.....again!!!

[Johnny Utah #9]

On this point.
Please let's not forget that the company and president that owns the jet and cardboard is under investigation by the ACCC and requires to submit evidence in court to defend allegations of collusion in the market place (many years of which has enabled the purchase of not 1 but 2 jets. Actually the irony is quite fitting that he is at carlton.

Oh the politics of making oneself look like a shining knight, to be able to present oneself as of good character in the eyes of the court.

Of course carlton will be back and the rivalry continues......

Ahhh Pies supporters you just don't seem to understand history or factual events at all do you?

Let me clear some things up:

1 - 1979 Grand Final. Aside from choking and blowing a 5 goal lead in the wet! When Harmes knocked the ball to Sheldon there was still 5 minutes of play left....not 5 seconds as some of you would claim! Furthermore, the ball was shown to be by an independant Melbourne Uni study of the tape using the latest technology available. Nuff said.

2 - 1995 Premiership. Carlton has NEVER been found guilty by the AFL or anyone else for that matter for salary cap breaches for that particular season. If we want to throw around rumours and innuendo, then i can easily retort and claim you 1990 premiership is tainted due to steriod use by Collingwood players at the time. Just refer to comments made by your 1990 era players such as Brian Taylor.

3 - Yes, as stated above, Dick Pratt's company is under investigation by the ACCC, however, nothing has been proven as yet and may never will. As most people know these days, Dick is just a figure head and doesn't even have a hand in the day-to-day operations of the business.

Conversely.......

Those of you with a memory span more than 5 seconds might want to recall the history of your own great club. Does the company HIH or a bloke by the name of Brad Cooper ring any bells? Yes, that's right, he is your former Vice-President and right hand man of Eddie who is currently in Silverwater prison for 8 years for numerous fraud related charges. Makes Jack Elliott look like a saint in comparison whom you all love to lambast. Of course, with all the money he was ripping off HIH shareholders it is impossible to believe that not one cent of this found it's way to the Collingwood FC under the guise of some dodgy sponsorship.....Eddie would not have accepted it surely! Hmmmmm.....



http://www.theage.com.au/news/busin...plains-his-part/2005/08/07/1123353208570.html

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.ns...r+sentenced+to+eight+years’+jail?openDocument

 

[Collingwoodrow]

Johnny Utah - Would rather you brought steel capped boots than logic to a Collingwood forum beating on Carlton.

Anyway you look at Pagans sacking....it is a move by the board to give its members hope. I have already heard the cries of a "new dawn" from Carlton fans.......and like the hiring of Pagan, the dismissal of Elliot, the recruitment of Stevens, the dismissal of Smorgan, the hiring of Pratt, the hiring of Swan etc etc.......it will prove to be a false dawn.

The fact of the matter is through sheer arrogance Carlton's former president refused to accept the reality that is the AFL draft and the salary cap. He thought it did not apply to Carlton; that the salary cap could be broken and drafting didnt matter when you could pull out a cheque book.

The claims that the AFL penalties were too harsh are bollocks. It is a nice romantic claim that some Carlton fans use as a safety blanket because they refuse to accept years of incompetence and buffonery at both board level and in the football department as the true cause for their demise. To do that Carlton would need to show humility, to accept that Carlton is just another AFL club, not some superior being......Not Carlton. We dont accept mediocrity at Carlton.

No, Carlton has not embraced mediocrity......it can only look forward to the day of being mediocre......right now they are nothing short of pathetic. And rightfully we should put the boots in because arrogance has no place when fighting for survival......and a few at Carlton after all these years still have not learnt that.

 

[1eye]

Ahhh Pies supporters you just don't seem to understand history or factual events at all do you?

Let me clear some things up:

1 - 1979 Grand Final. Aside from choking and blowing a 5 goal lead in the wet! When Harmes knocked the ball to Sheldon there was still 5 minutes of play left....not 5 seconds as some of you would claim! Furthermore, the ball was shown to be by an independant Melbourne Uni study of the tape using the latest technology available. Nuff said.

2 - 1995 Premiership. Carlton has NEVER been found guilty by the AFL or anyone else for that matter for salary cap breaches for that particular season. If we want to throw around rumours and innuendo, then i can easily retort and claim you 1990 premiership is tainted due to steriod use by Collingwood players at the time. Just refer to comments made by your 1990 era players such as Brian Taylor.

3 - Yes, as stated above, Dick Pratt's company is under investigation by the ACCC, however, nothing has been proven as yet and may never will. As most people know these days, Dick is just a figure head and doesn't even have a hand in the day-to-day operations of the business.

Conversely.......

Those of you with a memory span more than 5 seconds might want to recall the history of your own great club. Does the company HIH or a bloke by the name of Brad Cooper ring any bells? Yes, that's right, he is your former Vice-President and right hand man of Eddie who is currently in Silverwater prison for 8 years for numerous fraud related charges. Makes Jack Elliott look like a saint in comparison whom you all love to lambast. Of course, with all the money he was ripping off HIH shareholders it is impossible to believe that not one cent of this found it's way to the Collingwood FC under the guise of some dodgy sponsorship.....Eddie would not have accepted it surely! Hmmmmm.....



http://www.theage.com.au/news/busin...plains-his-part/2005/08/07/1123353208570.html

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.ns...r+sentenced+to+eight+years’+jail?openDocument

Nice response, balanced argument although a bit defensive.

Point 1, granted. History shows we weren't good enough on the day!

Point 2. I would suggest that a one Mr collins (in AFL at the time)intervened here to prevent a real blood bath and it was Mr Elliot (yes of IXL fame www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20871434-16941,00.html) who got the wrap. Even though Mr Collins (you know- the Spotless catering and Colonial Stadium deal fame) knew about it all along.

Point 3. You are partly right here. Yes today he is a figure head - playing the patronage saint role to lift a tarnished public image. However, at the time of the alleged offences it is common knowledge he ran the show from behind the scenes and the front man was/is the puppet. (ACCC have tried to get him since late 80's & 90's and it wasn't until the introduction of anonimity/amnesty did they succeed to bring a case)

Of course Eddie will plead(s) "I didn't Know".
The reality of Mr Brad Cooper is that he was a 2 bit alarm salesman who had some important information on some people who bought his 2 cent company out. (of course a crook as history has shown)

Football is an expensive sport and both our clubs are driven by corporate dollars. No exception here!

I guess an old cliche rings true. "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove"

 

[malteaser]

Ahhh Pies supporters you just don't seem to understand history or factual events at all do you?

Let me clear some things up:

1 - 1979 Grand Final. Aside from choking and blowing a 5 goal lead in the wet! When Harmes knocked the ball to Sheldon there was still 5 minutes of play left....not 5 seconds as some of you would claim! Furthermore, the ball was shown to be by an independant Melbourne Uni study of the tape using the latest technology available. Nuff said.

2 - 1995 Premiership. Carlton has NEVER been found guilty by the AFL or anyone else for that matter for salary cap breaches for that particular season. If we want to throw around rumours and innuendo, then i can easily retort and claim you 1990 premiership is tainted due to steriod use by Collingwood players at the time. Just refer to comments made by your 1990 era players such as Brian Taylor.

3 - Yes, as stated above, Dick Pratt's company is under investigation by the ACCC, however, nothing has been proven as yet and may never will. As most people know these days, Dick is just a figure head and doesn't even have a hand in the day-to-day operations of the business.

Conversely.......

Those of you with a memory span more than 5 seconds might want to recall the history of your own great club. Does the company HIH or a bloke by the name of Brad Cooper ring any bells? Yes, that's right, he is your former Vice-President and right hand man of Eddie who is currently in Silverwater prison for 8 years for numerous fraud related charges. Makes Jack Elliott look like a saint in comparison whom you all love to lambast. Of course, with all the money he was ripping off HIH shareholders it is impossible to believe that not one cent of this found it's way to the Collingwood FC under the guise of some dodgy sponsorship.....Eddie would not have accepted it surely! Hmmmmm.....



http://www.theage.com.au/news/busin...plains-his-part/2005/08/07/1123353208570.html

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.ns...r+sentenced+to+eight+years’+jail?openDocument

You know I could list at least 20-30 presidents over the years that were or are corrupt. The difference at Carlton, they still don't know why it has gone sour for them and blame everyone else for their off field failure. Has anyone come out and taken responsibility for what happened or have they always blamed the AFL and kicked and scream when 15 other teams start having a go at them. S*ermaham is one example.

Sure you can blame their on field failure due to draft picks they missed out on after the fall out but who did they draft before all this happened? As far as I know, I can't think of one outstanding draft pick since Whitnall and he is up and down like a yo yo biscuit.

Long live their ability to hit rock bottom, they make even a crap year (2005) a fantastic one and we out drafted them.

 

[JBMKII]

Ahhh Pies supporters you just don't seem to understand history or factual events at all do you?

Let me clear some things up:

1 - 1979 Grand Final. Aside from choking and blowing a 5 goal lead in the wet! When Harmes knocked the ball to Sheldon there was still 5 minutes of play left....not 5 seconds as some of you would claim! Furthermore, the ball was shown to be by an independant Melbourne Uni study of the tape using the latest technology available. Nuff said.

2 - 1995 Premiership. Carlton has NEVER been found guilty by the AFL or anyone else for that matter for salary cap breaches for that particular season. If we want to throw around rumours and innuendo, then i can easily retort and claim you 1990 premiership is tainted due to steriod use by Collingwood players at the time. Just refer to comments made by your 1990 era players such as Brian Taylor.

3 - Yes, as stated above, Dick Pratt's company is under investigation by the ACCC, however, nothing has been proven as yet and may never will. As most people know these days, Dick is just a figure head and doesn't even have a hand in the day-to-day operations of the business.

Conversely.......

Those of you with a memory span more than 5 seconds might want to recall the history of your own great club. Does the company HIH or a bloke by the name of Brad Cooper ring any bells? Yes, that's right, he is your former Vice-President and right hand man of Eddie who is currently in Silverwater prison for 8 years for numerous fraud related charges. Makes Jack Elliott look like a saint in comparison whom you all love to lambast. Of course, with all the money he was ripping off HIH shareholders it is impossible to believe that not one cent of this found it's way to the Collingwood FC under the guise of some dodgy sponsorship.....Eddie would not have accepted it surely! Hmmmmm.....



http://www.theage.com.au/news/busin...plains-his-part/2005/08/07/1123353208570.html

http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.ns...r+sentenced+to+eight+years’+jail?openDocument

Where their is smoke their is fire peanut, and your cheating filth rabble are in flames, your still cheating and been doing it for your entire existence.
The money is no longer under the table, but your cheating the drafting system by deliberately loosing games, breeding losers and weak culture. That is pathetic and even that word is unworthy to describe the filth you barrack for. There is no one coming to save you, gibbs, murphy, Kruzer who by the way is a COLLINGWOOD supporter wont save you. Its done and your club is down for the count, not long to go know before it self implodes into total kaos, if its not already, all i can say is you got knocked the **** out biatch

 

[Johnny Utah #9]

Nice response, balanced argument although a bit defensive.

Point 1, granted. History shows we weren't good enough on the day!

Point 2. I would suggest that a one Mr collins (in AFL at the time)intervened here to prevent a real blood bath and it was Mr Elliot (yes of IXL fame www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20871434-16941,00.html) who got the wrap. Even though Mr Collins (you know- the Spotless catering and Colonial Stadium deal fame) knew about it all along.

Point 3. You are partly right here. Yes today he is a figure head - playing the patronage saint role to lift a tarnished public image. However, at the time of the alleged offences it is common knowledge he ran the show from behind the scenes and the front man was/is the puppet. (ACCC have tried to get him since late 80's & 90's and it wasn't until the introduction of anonimity/amnesty did they succeed to bring a case)

Of course Eddie will plead(s) "I didn't Know".
The reality of Mr Brad Cooper is that he was a 2 bit alarm salesman who had some important information on some people who bought his 2 cent company out. (of course a crook as history has shown)

Football is an expensive sport and both our clubs are driven by corporate dollars. No exception here!

I guess an old cliche rings true. "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove"

Good rebuttal, however, you will get no argument from me (and many Carlton supporters) in regards to putting the boot into Ian Collins.

For a guy who was supposedly Carlton through and through he did a heck of a lot of things to screw us over when he was at the AFL and as our president. Eg: changed the father son rules that meant we missed out on Matthew Lloyd, intervened to get Greg Williams rubbed out for 9 weeks, shipped us off to TD/MCG in a vastly inferior deal to what other clubs are receiving and essentially brought in 2/5th's of bugger all when it came to new sponsorships.

Add in to the mix as well that this was the bloke who cost Chris Grant a Brownlow and it's you can see why it's pretty easy to not like the bloke!

 

[sherb]

We've had our fair share, I don't see the sacking of a coach as imploding, the stuff in the past with presidents and money and draft picks made up for that. This is just a minor set back.

All clubs have gone through dark times at one stage or another. As I said before, strong clubs pull through it.

To be honest, having followed Carlton since the late 60s, the club has seen an awful lot of highs so a down period was inevitable.

Can't say I enjoy it too much , but I have no choice but to be patient and ride through the rough period. I think it is how you cope with the bad times which truly measures your worth as a supporter.

As for the depth of our issues, I think that is partly because it is a club dealing with failure for the first time in many years. Also the legacy from the Elliott period (with our penalties and associated list/financial problems) hasn't helped.

We have had a long time in the sun, it is time for others to have theirs before we return to being strong again. It will probably be a while yet, but I am confident that the Blues will emerge a better club for the experiences of the past five years.

 

[Jabso]

The penalty's are only a small part of the problem,a more major part is our drafting or lack of it in the 1997 - 2000 drafts.

If you want a major laugh go check them out.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFL_Draft

That's true and a point I'm always trying to make. In your penalised years we probably had worse results from the draft.

 

[Captain_Knowall]

Watching Carlton festering away, rearranging deck chairs, trying to make themelevs look like they're doing something while their supporters feel the need to come to the Collingwood board and bag us is the gift that keeps on giving.

May they have a long and turbulent reign in the bottom 4 on the ladder. Getting high draft picks is useless if you don't actually draft good players with them.

Don't know about the long and turbulent reign in the bottom 4, but your last comment is precisely them problem... we've had plenty of top picks in the last couple of years but the players aren't living up to where they were drafted at. Pendlebury is 10 times better than Kennedy though taken above him, Jordan Russell was a top 10 pick and can't even get a game...