Cloke vs Goddard

[juss]

Franklin's no1 in my eyes, Cloke would be top 10 easilly ATM IMO, i rate him higher than 'some' of our gun mids, many of whom are top 10 themselves in the eyes of some, Swan a standout and Cloke even with Pendles, Thomas a bit behind.

That's the nature of top 10s, depending on whether you base them on recent form, a whole season, or several seasons they are forever changing. Personally I think this year for the pies I'd have it: Swan > Pendlebury > Thomas > Cloke > Davis. But I obviously don't watch as much Collingwood as you do so I won't argue on this one.

 

[the distributer]

That's the nature of top 10s, depending on whether you base them on recent form, a whole season, or several seasons they are forever changing. Personally I think this year for the pies I'd have it: Swan > Pendlebury > Thomas > Cloke > Davis. But I obviously don't watch as much Collingwood as you do so I won't argue on this one.

They're all right up there with the best players in the comp, happy days for me lol.

Edit- maybe not Davis, but he's been very good too.

 

[blitzer]

Cloke is better this year but I wouldn't be too surprised if next year we were talking about his goal kicking again and if Goddard got back towards his best where he was top 5 in the comp. I'd take Goddard personally, one of the best kicks in the comp and even when he's down on confidence and form, at least he can always find a teammate with the ball. Cloke is a forward enjoying a dominant midfield and limited pressure on him to perform (We've all seen less talented forwards dominate such as Mooney/Lynch in this situation), i'll want to see him maintaining his current level or similar over several years before I really rate him as one of the competitions best. So although it is subject to re-evaluation in the future, Goddard for now.

 

[the distributer]

Cloke is better this year but I wouldn't be too surprised if next year we were talking about his goal kicking again and if Goddard got back towards his best where he was top 5 in the comp. I'd take Goddard personally, one of the best kicks in the comp and even when he's down on confidence and form, at least he can always find a teammate with the ball. Cloke is a forward enjoying a dominant midfield and limited pressure on him to perform (We've all seen less talented forwards dominate such as Mooney/Lynch in this situation), i'll want to see him maintaining his current level or similar over several years before I really rate him as one of the competitions best. So although it is subject to re-evaluation in the future, Goddard for now.

Leon Davis can find a target 9 times out of 10, would you prefer him over Cloke too?

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Cloke by a long way. Goddard had one good season & one very good one when St Kilda were flying and he was playing almost completely unaccountable football. Since the heat has been on this year, Goodard has struggled.

Very good KPFs are almost impossible to find these days. Players like Goddard aren't that rare.

 

[Scodog10]

Goddard had one good season & one very good one when St Kilda were flying and he was playing almost completely unaccountable football. Since the heat has been on this year, Goodard has struggled.

Very good KPFs are almost impossible to find these days. Players like Goddard aren't that rare.

I think you're spot on with the Goddard summation. He hasn't won a club B&F and has only had 2 season's out of 9 at a standard befitting his lofty talents.

His numbers have been ok this season, but considering the incredible weapons he possesses he should be impacting games far more. Maybe he's just not enjoying his footy as much this year.....

If I could only have one at Collingwood I'd go with Cloke quite comfortably. Because what he brings to the table is absolutely pivotal, but I could just as easily understand a Saints, Kangas, Hawks, Crows or West Coast fan going the opposite to that because they already have forwards that could play a similar role to Cloke.

However having said all that the OP asked who was the better player overall and Goddard still edges out Cloke in that regard. Due mainly to the fact that Cloke has only really delivered on his talents this season. If the two were to have similar season's in 2012 to the ones they're having this year my vote would change.

 

[the distributer]

I think you're spot on with the Goddard summation. He hasn't won a club B&F and has only had 2 season's out of 9 at a standard befitting his lofty talents.

His numbers have been ok this season, but considering the incredible weapons he possesses he should be impacting games far more. Maybe he's just not enjoying his footy as much this year.....

If I could only have one at Collingwood I'd go with Cloke quite comfortably. Because what he brings to the table is absolutely pivotal, but I could just as easily understand a Saints, Kangas, Hawks, Crows or West Coast fan going the opposite to that because they already have forwards that could play a similar role to Cloke.

However having said all that the OP asked who was the better player overall and Goddard still edges out Cloke in that regard. Due mainly to the fact that Cloke has only really delivered on his talents this season. If the two were to have similar season's in 2012 to the ones they're having this year my vote would change.

Not sure the OP meant 'overall' as in careers, if he did i miss read it, Goddard has had a much better career to date than Cloke, he's a dual AA iirc and should be a NS medalist, the argument on the trades board 'which this thread is about' was over trade value, but it did get sidetracked into current value on field as well, pretty much would you swap Goddard for Cloke.

 

[Scodog10]

Not sure the OP meant 'overall' as in careers, if he did i miss read it, Goddard has had a much better career to date than Cloke, he's a dual AA iirc, the argument on the trades board 'which this thread is about' was over trade value, but it did get sidetracked into current value on field as well.

The argument on the drafts and trades board may very well have been over who has the higher trade value, but the OP distinctly asks in his last sentence who is the better player overall.

When judging that you have to take everything into account including past performances and having gone over that I think Goddard has the edge. I did say that Cloke may turn it around next year, but its possible for him to even do it this year as long as he has a similar finals series to Goddard's in 2010. Unfortunately Cloke just isn't as good a big game performer so I don't believe its possible for him to do so!

As to who would have the higher trade value. Well IMO West Coast, Richmond or Adelaide would pay more for Goddard because they already have good KPF's and lack that versatile type. Whereas Carlton, Sydney and Fremantle would pay more for Cloke because they already have the gun versatile player or are in greater need of a KPF.

I'd personally give up more in a trade for the gun contested marking KPF than I would the gun versatile player. But I can understand why people would go the other way and I wouldn't bother questioning them over it!!!

 

[the distributer]

The argument on the drafts and trades board may very well have been over who has the higher trade value, but the OP distinctly asks in his last sentence who is the better player overall.

When judging that you have to take everything into account including past performances and having gone over that I think Goddard has the edge. I did say that Cloke may turn it around next year, but its possible for him to even do it this year as long as he has a similar finals series to Goddard's in 2010. Unfortunately Cloke just isn't as good a big game performer so I don't believe its possible for him to do so!

As to who would have the higher trade value. Well IMO West Coast, Richmond or Adelaide would pay more for Goddard because they already have good KPF's and lack that versatile type. Whereas Carlton, Sydney and Fremantle would pay more for Cloke because they already have the gun versatile player or are in greater need of a KPF.

I'd personally give up more in a trade for the gun contested marking KPF than I would the gun versatile player. But I can understand why people would go the other way and I wouldn't bother questioning them over it!!!

Would you agree 'versatile' is often another way of saying 'jack of all trades, master of none'? if you're good enough to play fwd or mid at an elite level you simply will not find yourself on the HB line for 90% of seasons, Goddard has never shown anything like AA form in position exept the HBF, which everyone knows is one of the most unacountable positions you can play.

Do you think if Clokes form went south he would be a capable CHB, FB, genuine FF or ruck? fact is if he keeps doing his job in the most demanding position on the field we will not find out, if goddard had of kept doing his job in the midfeild we wouldn't of found he can play HB either, just sayin.

 

[Jesus Baulks]

Going forward? Cloke, easily.

Goddard's a one year wonder.

 

[Scodog10]

Would you agree 'versatile' is often another way of saying 'jack of all trades, master of none'? if you're good enough to play fwd or mid at an elite level you simply will not find yourself on the HB line for 90% of seasons, Goddard has never shown anything like AA form in position exept the HBF, which everyone knows is one of the most unacountable positions you can play.

Do you think if Clokes form went south he would be a capable CHB, FB, genuine FF or ruck? fact is if he keeps doing his job in the most demanding position on the field we will not find out, if goddard had of kept doing his job in the midfeild we wouldn't of found he can play HB either, just sayin.

I'd say that Goodes and Pavlich are both as versatile as Goddard and both are future hall of famers so there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a gun versatile player.

 

[The Finger]

Would you agree 'versatile' is often another way of saying 'jack of all trades, master of none'? if you're good enough to play fwd or mid at an elite level you simply will not find yourself on the HB line for 90% of seasons, Goddard has never shown anything like AA form in position exept the HBF, which everyone knows is one of the most unacountable positions you can play.

Do you think if Clokes form went south he would be a capable CHB, FB, genuine FF or ruck? fact is if he keeps doing his job in the most demanding position on the field we will not find out, if goddard had of kept doing his job in the midfeild we wouldn't of found he can play HB either, just sayin.

Goddards numbers are often effected by his versatity. No doubt at all if Goddard was playing at another club his numbers would be far greater. So often Ive watched Saints games and Goddards slaying them in the middle then hes sent back for the last five minutes to prevent a goal. Then hes tearing it up only to be sent forward to try and kick a late goal. Rarely do you see Goddard rack up those junk time stats all mid fielders get.

 

[jonbe54]

Junk time stats are one of the most overrated stats in footy. You get junktime stats because you keep going when others slacking off - so long as you are getting good stats in prime time junktime stats are the reward for unremitting effort.

 

[The Finger]

Junk time stats are one of the most overrated stats in footy. You get junktime stats because you keep going when others slacking off - so long as you are getting good stats in prime time junktime stats are the reward for unremitting effort.

There overated because they still count thats all. How many times have you seen four players playing kick to kick in the back half for the last few minutes of a quarter. Happens every week.

 

[jonbe54]

There overated because they still count thats all. How many times have you seen four players playing kick to kick in the back half for the last few minutes of a quarter. Happens every week.

Not saying it doesn't happen but its used by the mentally lazy BF'ers as a put down when they can't think of anything else even if said player has been collecting his stats throughout the game. Stats are just an indication and bear little relevance when used in isolation.

Here's an example - from my own club who's players I know best

Ball burrows under the pack and works it out to Pendlebury who caresses it by hand to Swan who looks upfield and sees no clear team mates in range who dishes it back to Penders and keeps running around the back of the pack, Penders looks up field and can only find one on ones while Swan is running free so dishes to him and helps Ball clear a passage for Swan to run through.

Swan takes off and spots Cloke leading to the half forward flank boundary and hoofs it towards him and keeps running. Cloke clunks the mark and takes off in a circle to pass off to Dawes who spots Swan running free and taps it into his path.

Swan collects and slots the ball through from 30. Meanwhile Swan's man is left gasping somewhere on the wing. Swan does this type of thing time after time, it's no wonder he isn't tagged because he is just such an running machine so that by the time the quarter is into red time Swan's opponent has been just about run into the ground and so Swan is totally off the leash and grabs a lazy 5 possies in junktime.

Yes you can get junktime stats but the best of players earn them by burying their opponents into the turf in prime time - that is my point.

 

[The Finger]

Not saying it doesn't happen but its used by the mentally lazy BF'ers as a put down when they can't think of anything else even if said player has been collecting his stats throughout the game. Stats are just an indication and bear little relevance when used in isolation.

Here's an example - from my own club who's players I know best

Ball burrows under the pack and works it out to Pendlebury who caresses it by hand to Swan who looks upfield and sees no clear team mates in range who dishes it back to Penders and keeps running around the back of the pack, Penders looks up field and can only find one on ones while Swan is running free so dishes to him and helps Ball clear a passage for Swan to run through.

Swan takes off and spots Cloke leading to the half forward flank boundary and hoofs it towards him and keeps running. Cloke clunks the mark and takes off in a circle to pass off to Dawes who spots Swan running free and taps it into his path.

Swan collects and slots the ball through from 30. Meanwhile Swan's man is left gasping somewhere on the wing. Swan does this type of thing time after time, it's no wonder he isn't tagged because he is just such an running machine so that by the time the quarter is into red time Swan's opponent has been just about run into the ground and so Swan is totally off the leash and grabs a lazy 5 possies in junktime.

Yes you can get junktime stats but the best of players earn them by burying their opponents into the turf in prime time - that is my point.

Thats all well and good and they are not junk stats at all. Junk stats are when theres three minutes to go the other team has pushed 18 men back in defence. Then Swan marks kicks backwards to Maxwell who then kicks back to Swan who kicks it backwards to Shaw who kicks it across to Swan. Repeat until siren. Swap names and teams to suit. Thats junk.