Coach Grumpy

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Pat is doing exactly what a good captain is doing right now and protecting his players. If you want to criticise him for being 'dishonest', go for your life. Pat has no obligation to give details to the broader Australian public over the relationship between him, his coach and the players. That is an in-house issue and should remain that way. He never lied in the lead up to Langer's resignation, he just gave diplomatic answers, which is exactly what he should have done.

I never understand why people believe we are entitled to all these intimate details of what goes on behind closed doors. No crimes are being committed, people just want gossip and something to criticise/be outraged over.
Like it or not Cummins image has been tarnished
 
No to the last sentence we would call him honest and thats the most important quality. Honestly pats statement today was so full of crafted PR that it belonged in a labor/liberal campaign speech. Its disappointing to see that he clearly doesnt get it-hopefully the public are not that stupid.
Respect your opinion PO and sure, there are some PR buzz words included in PC's statement - but given your disappointment, feel free to enlighten some of us with a few dot points that the apparent 'stupid public' should of been presented with..?
A..? B..? C..?
 
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All the former players talking about results being the major factor of JL continuing in his role have learned nothing from the ball tampering fiasco. Aus team only cared about results and it led to an environment where certain players thought it would be okay to cheat in order to win. Winning is clearly not everything, something past players can't fathom it.

Clearly having an appropriate environment where players and support staff feel comfortable is important too, this was not happening which lead to the JL intervention prior to the t20 WC. The environment changed when he took a backseat role and then results improved, something that is purposely missed by all those individuals defending JL. CA from their investigation likely thought JL wouldn't be able to continue in his new coaching approach if he had a long term contract, so they gave him a short-term contract until the end of this year.
 

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more disrespect for past players this thread is full of it
It's not disrespectful at all. They're entitled to their opinions, but they don't mean shit when they're not inside the squad and able to accurately assess the impasse between players and coach.

It's nice that you think past players shouldn't be disrespected though, given how quick you are to turn on present players - going as far as saying that you wanted Australia to lose the fifth Ashes Test because of your personal vendetta with the so-called NSW "boys club".
 
We were also the number one ranked Test team in the world under Darren Lehmann at one point. That doesn't mean people look back favourably on his tenure as coach (regardless of the ball-tampering saga). As it turns out, Australia is generally just pretty good at cricket.
 
It's not disrespectful at all. They're entitled to their opinions, but they don't mean sh*t when they're not inside the squad and able to accurately assess the impasse between players and coach.

Its also a generation of players who knifed an all time great coach right after we dethroned the unofficial word champs west indies so their mate with almost no coaching experience could get a gig, same generation that had people like warne openly talk shit about his coach while they were still working together and hasn't shut up about him since, if our cricket media weren't so shit scared of pissing off that great generation they might actually ask them how they reconcile their own era's behavior towards coaches with their criticism of the current lot.
 
People using the Test rankings to justify Langers job clearly don't understand the rankings or why Australia are currently no.1.

Case in point Michael Bevan on The Grade Cricketer podcast said he hasn't really followed international cricket since he retired.
 
Its also a generation of players who knifed an all time great coach right after we dethroned the unofficial word champs west indies so their mate with almost no coaching experience could get a gig, same generation that had people like warne openly talk sh*t about his coach while they were still working together and hasn't shut up about him since, if our cricket media weren't so sh*t scared of pissing off that great generation they might actually ask them how they reconcile their own era's behavior towards coaches with their criticism of the current lot.
A bit OT but Bob Simpson was well before my time but looking at his tenure, the team went through more troubling times than this generation. Inherited even more of a mess. Affected by external factors. Was part of probably the greatest series win away from home ever knocking over the dominant West Indies. Even he got the sack. Ngl, I was a bit shocked but he was almost 60 at the time.
 
What a messy result

You feel that Langer's cards were marked a while ago. Sure he made some changes but having a guy there fighting every natural urge and being forced to give others space/control isn't a structure that can work sustainably.

The complication was the recent results. How can a world cup win and Ashes triumph be the end point? Our opposition sacked their coach afterwards!

Feel for Cummins. Suddenly this messy exit became his problem to deal with and to publicly front. He can't be honest about the reasons without dumping on Langer, which he's resisted doing. Have we heard from Finch yet?

Langer would now be doubting the relationships he'd had over the last four years. Were the players being genuine with him? Did they not respect him behind his back?
 
Its also a generation of players who knifed an all time great coach right after we dethroned the unofficial word champs west indies so their mate with almost no coaching experience could get a gig, same generation that had people like warne openly talk sh*t about his coach while they were still working together and hasn't shut up about him since, if our cricket media weren't so sh*t scared of pissing off that great generation they might actually ask them how they reconcile their own era's behavior towards coaches with their criticism of the current lot.

And for all the "next coach coming in knows he needs to toe the player line otherwise he is gone"' stuff, some of Geoff Marsh's first words to the media when he took on the job was "we'll see what he [Taylor] wants me to do".
 

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Its also a generation of players who knifed an all time great coach right after we dethroned the unofficial word champs west indies so their mate with almost no coaching experience could get a gig, same generation that had people like warne openly talk sh*t about his coach while they were still working together and hasn't shut up about him since, if our cricket media weren't so sh*t scared of pissing off that great generation they might actually ask them how they reconcile their own era's behavior towards coaches with their criticism of the current lot.
At the risk of protracting a debate Frank - to add some context, nearly all the players from that era have publicly stated their retrospective appreciation and admiration of Simpson as their coach. SK Warne on the other hand, is simply a classless bogan and what irks him even further is that Buchanan's public rebuttal is that Shane was one of his star pupils, ha ha...
 
A bit OT but Bob Simpson was well before my time but looking at his tenure, the team went through more troubling times than this generation. Inherited even more of a mess. Affected by external factors. Was part of probably the greatest series win away from home ever knocking over the dominant West Indies. Even he got the sack. Ngl, I was a bit shocked but he was almost 60 at the time.

It was a pretty similar situation, a coach they respected but a coach who fitted in better with the former skipper than the younger man who had his own vision for the side and a also coach who was very intense and liked to do things his way and had just worn the players down to the point where they needed a break and a new direction.

It simply wanst a big deal back then and simspon didnt make it one neither did his former teammates, his time was up even though he clearly had results on the board but the view from most was the test team should and does belong to the skipper not the coach so they backed the young skippers vision for the side over a well respected older coach.

But it's either wrong to change the coach both times or none, if its wrong now it was wrong when the people defending langer did it to simpson.
 
What a messy result

You feel that Langer's cards were marked a while ago. Sure he made some changes but having a guy there fighting every natural urge and being forced to give others space/control isn't a structure that can work sustainably.

The complication was the recent results.
How can a world cup win and Ashes triumph be the end point? Our opposition sacked their coach afterwards!

Feel for Cummins. Suddenly this messy exit became his problem to deal with and to publicly front. He can't be honest about the reasons without dumping on Langer, which he's resisted doing. Have we heard from Finch yet?

Langer would now be doubting the relationships he'd had over the last four years. Were the players being genuine with him? Did they not respect him behind his back?

well the other complication was simply that Langer didn't want to give it up. To an extent, it reminds me of the story of David Boon's retirement, wherein he scored a ton, got told "That wasn't the hundred we wanted to see"...and then he retired before the selectors retired him. Justin Langer pushed on when it was clear that no contract extension would be possible and it led to this
 
At the risk of protracting a debate Frank - to add some context, nearly all the players from that era have publicly stated their retrospective appreciation and admiration of Simpson as their coach. SK Warne on the other hand, is simply a classless bogan and what irks him further is that Buchanan's public rebuttal is that Shane was one of his star pupils, ha ha...

I don't think there was ever any doubt they respected simpson as a coach and i have no doubt our current guys respect langer but that doesn't mean they cant want a new direction for the side or that 4 years of langer was enough and they needed a break and a chance for cummins to take full control of the side in a way that perhaps paine was unwilling or unable to do.
 
I don't think there was ever any doubt they respected simpson as a coach and i have no doubt our current guys respect langer but that doesn't mean they cant want a new direction for the side or that 4 years of langer was enough and they needed a break and a chance for cummins to take full control of the side in a way that perhaps paine was unwilling or unable to do.

In relation to Paine, hard to believe the media haven't sought his comments over this, or perhaps they have and Paine has rightly told them to GAGF..?
 
That's not a positive. Khawaja was right, the days of captains being solely in charge of the team is no longer viable. The idea that Cummins is best placed to assess his own strengths and weaknesses is flawed, the idea that he could do the same for other players is absurd. Yes, they each have their own coaches but someone needs to have a look at the bigger picture.

The perception remains that the players pushed Langer out, that the next coach will be more of a yes-man to the players; the last time we let the inmates run the asylum, someone thought it was a good idea to take sandpaper out on to the field.
this line keeps getting a run, but I think it's worth remembering that, while a seemingly different personality to Langer, Darren Lehmann was very much installed over Michael Clarke, and that Clarke made no secret in saying that he felt that Lehmann had gained too much power and there's no suggestion that Lehmann handed back those powers when Smith became captain. There's no indicition that Lehmann was sitting in the back of the room doing a crossword puzzle for all of his reign for example. Langer is the headliner, but I'm guessing the direction of the coaching panel may not just be turning away from the direction of Langer, but also Lehmann

edit I hadn't seen to1994's post on this point which raised some good points too
 
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In relation to Paine, hard to believe the media haven't sought his comments over this, or perhaps they have and Paine has rightly told them to GAGF..?

I was reading an article in theage few days ago that said paine was ofte the intermediary in dealing with issues between langer and some players so i would say paine wouldn't really want to throw either side under the bus as both langer and the players seem to have trusted him a lot.

This was from a daniel brettig article:

Through all this, Paine in particular wore the divisions heavily. Close to Langer but equally trusted and respected by the players, he did his best to manage the situation over a couple of years, before agreeing with the need for change at the August meeting. Somewhat brutally, Paine has remained a part of conversations about the team’s issues and future this summer after his resignation: still cast as something of a mediator even as he wrestles with the sudden end to his international career.

if all that is true it could also show why things went downhill so fast this summer, perhaps langer and the players relied too heavily on paine to smooth these issues over.
 
Ian Chappell has taken a sensational swipe at past players defending Justin Langer, calling them the former Australia coach’s “PR machine” while defending Test captain Pat Cummins.
Yep and not often these days I agree with him but I definitely do here. Fair enough if Justin's mates are unhappy with CA. But having a crack at Cummins or other current players over it is absolute bull shit.
 
Very well written statement for Pat to read today. Cummins did well with the media, not much else he could say. He is not going to bag JL. His side now and I gather from where they are at they are flying so really no excuses in Pakistan, should be quite a simple series to win in all formats especially the tests.
 

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