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Concerns over Concussion Rule

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Concussion injuries are quite difficult on many fronts.

I think there are very significant concerns with the hasty implementation of this ( well intentioned and medically wise) rule, and the apparent lack of support to the clubs and coaches over its introduction.

Like most things, concussions can be mild, moderate and severe. Milder cases can be very difficult to diagnose; they are definitely not black and white and are open to interpretation even for doctors. Let alone doctors standing on the edge of a footy field without access to their full diagnostic aids, and often are called upon to make speeedy decisions where the benefit of taking time to observe progress is restricted.

Helmets are not the answer because it is the sloshing of the brain in the skull 'box' that stretches nerve cell fibres and damages them that causes concussion, and helmets do not prevent that happening to any significant degree.

It takes a week for the stretching/bruising of the nerve fibres to settle down, and a second such injury within that week can do much more, and potentially permanent damage as the nerves are in a heightened state of vulnerability.

People shouldn't even run during that rest week, as even jogging bounces the brain around inside the skull. Should def not go back into the game and should miss a week for a mod to severe concussion.

Rightly or wrongly, when I was learning about this stuff many years ago, the conventional wisdom was four concussions with a loss of consciousness and that was your career with contact sport done and dusted.

Re the sub rule, the AFL brought that in first, then almost as the season started, they then said, "Oh, BTW, concussed players can't come back on"

Well that's fair enough from a medical viewpoint, but they then needed to add at least another sub to the game, ie 3 interchange, two subs.

With this concussion rule, which medically is valid, there is now too much incentive to whack a key player, get the sub on in the first qtr, someone else gets injured, pretty much game over.

It would not be reasonable in any match, let alone say a grand final, if your star player gets whacked behind play, he can't come back on; your bench and rotations are severely compromised by one thuggish or accidental unlucky hit.

Urgently need two subs, or even three, to support this concussion rule, and avoid it having too high a chance of changing results of matches.

This will avoid, as Judd completely correctly implied, Drs and coaches calling mild to mod concussions something else, like 'he was only just dazed, not truly concussed'

As I said, it is indeed a grey diagnostic area and way too open to interpretation and hence subversion.

Look at the Brisbane guy, clearly concussed, was it Mitch Clark, who came back on, just six minutes after going off in the last qtr, when the match was on the line.

It is completely naive to believe Drs are not open to bending the rules to suit their team...they are human, are usually huge barrackers for the team they look after.

I worry the team actually doing the right thing in terms of fair play and correct medical application of the AFL's well intended, but woolly and ill supported concussion rule, will be the one punished on the scoreboard, without the necessary structure and supports in place.

Thank you if anyone actually read this.
__________________

Magpies swooop on grand final win in Saturday’s second-chance decider.
 
Good read.

4 player interchange plus two subs is the the answer in my opinion. This will ensure that in the vast majority of cases, subbing a concussed player will not leave the team down a rotation and therefore not majorly disadvantage a team.

This should also ensure that players hopefully won't try to stay on the field with a mild concussion and doctors won't be as hesitant at diagnosing a player with concussion, as the consequences of that player being subbed won't be so severe (still leaves four vs four on the bench). This not a perfect system, as it doesn't eliminate all bias, but its a hell of a lot better than the current one. Maybe a player suspected of concussion should be referred to a AFL appointed doctor before he can take the field again to eliminate club bias?
 
It's a great discussion Swooop.

Despite all the guff about the reduced interchange bench reducing collision injuries it is clear that was just a smokescreen by the AFL for the real motivation behind the move to slow the speed of the game down. The AFL want this because it opens the game up, creates more traditional one on ones and increases the spectacle of the game (in their opinion anyway*). With that in mind I can't see the Than Shwe's and Ghuddafi's at AFL HQ really giving a shit. They've shown no real interest in a genuine consultation process. The kind where you listen to stakeholders opinions. They'd rather tell the interests this is how it is going to be and label it a consultation process so the punters will believe it was fair and above board.

Having said that i'm in total agreement with what you have suggested in the OP. New rules bring about new tactics to exploit the rule. Unfortunately this could see doctors in situations where they use the ambiguous nature of diagnosing a concussion to put players back on the field who otherwise would not have been risked. Particularly had there been adequate coverage in the form of additional bench or substitute players.

In regards to what the AFL should do to amend the bench and substitute rules I think the vast majority of punters, AFL clubs and AFL players would overwhelmingly support an increased size. I think Malthouses comments on On The Couch (the 4.50-8.40 min mark in this video) were very sensible.

A particularly liked this point by Malthouse:

"The more you diminish the numbers the less 'fair' it is going to get. Because you can cover your first one but what happens if your second one goes down? All of a sudden you've got 2 vs 3, if 1 goes down when you've got 4, it's 4 vs 3, it's minimal damage. 5 vs 6 hardly any ..... When you start to diminish the numbers you start get right into 'unfair'.

I think it is going to make sides more vulnerable to having to cater for a disadvantaged or losing players.
"

I think an increase to the interchange bench to 4 and an increase to the subsitute to 2 as half back flank suggested would make a lot of sense. Teams would be able to cover injury loses without being disadvantaged in the game. And over the course of a season, as our clubs injury statistics show, we would be less disadvantaged by injuries throughout the year. I think it would also improve the tactical flexibility of coaches which I am all for.

*I think what the AFL fails to see in this argument is that there was nothing wrong with the spectacle of the game in the first place. We won the premiership with a fast, highly skilled, quick transition and tough game style which I think was fantastic.

EDIT: You should post this on the mainboard Swooop.
 

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Unfortunately, sensible discussion such as this was not done by the AFL.

I'm not saying the rules are right or wrong...but they needed discussion with coaches, players, club doctors and experts in the field...as well as consultations with other codes from here and abroad.


I think the concussion rule is quite sensible...however it is a bit unclear. I think the AFL should have just left it at when a player is totally knocked out with a loss of total conciousness such as the Joel Selwood one last week or the Jordan Lewis one last year.

A player should not come back on if that's the case.



On the other hand, the Jarrad Waite type one where he was a bit wobbly for a bit but came good should be left to club doctors I reckon.


Unfortunately with the sub rule, most coaches can't afford to only have 2 rotations whilst the player takes a while to 'come to'. So whether the player is capable of returning or not is no longer a factor. It's more about how long it will take to get him back onto the field. If it is more than 10 minutes then the odds are he'll be subbed.



I can see why the AFL was so keen to reduce the amount of players around contests. There were some terrible head injuries on the weekend and a lot of injuries. I think heavy rotations decreases soft tissue injuries, but increases the likelihood of impact injuries.


I think the AFL should have just put a cap on rotations. Left it at 100. That would still leave 4 on the bench with plenty of cover for injuries but will fatigue players more.

I feel as if this substitute rule just has so many grey areas.
 
Unfortunately the sub rule has Adrian Anderson knee jerk all over it.

3 interchange 2 subs is the way to go, and these could be used strategically or not, depending on what coaches want to do.

I think if teams are clearly shown to have fatigue injuries particularly around the latter winter stages of the season, and it can be proved that this rule has caused them there will be hell to pay later.

On the concussion rule though - I think if players want to return to the field, the tests have to be a higher bar to leap than what they have been so far, and that should be conducted by an AFL medical supervisor with the emergency umpire in attendance.

The potential for corruption of this area is too high and the stakes too great to stuff it up.

So well done to the AFL on the whole on a decent workable rule and being ahead of the game (concussion) - one that only needs a few small adjustments to make work; pity it's come in behind an untested hodge-podge crock which as Mick Malthouse says, makes the game more unfair, is hated by players, coaches and fans alike, and is only there to keep the rules committee in work.
 
Should the AFL always have to consult with clubs/players/coaches? ??

I'm not convinced. It's trotted out & no doubt there's some validity but you have to remember a lot of rules are put in place specifically to thwart tactic X Y or Z.
Can't imagine Sheedy being happy with this for eg, given he was the one who pushed for the 3 & 4 man bench in the first place. Or same story with the 15m penalty being increased, he used it specifically to hold up play.

Doesn't mean he's right.
 
Swooop, I read that with interest, thank you. My initial feeling is that it would be prudent for the AFL to introduce a neutral doctor at each game assigned to evaluate potential concussions. This would at least eliminate the shenanigans that you speak of, which would seem to be the most pressing concern right now.

As for 2/3 subs instead of one...I'd rather just see the Emergencies allowed to actually be, you know, emergencies on the day. If someone gets injured/concussed etc and the sub is already on, then an emergency is allowed on.

In any case, I think you'll agree that the opening of the discussion about concussion is certainly a positive, and hopefully the AFL won't be too stubborn in acknowledging that the implementation isn't perfect yet.
 
I made this point the other day in a different thread. The emergencies should just be the potential subs on any given day. If they play a part in the game, all well and good. If not then let them play in the vfl. It means we can leave the bench at 4 and use them if required. Gives teams a he'll of a lot more flexibility if required and won't create massive disadvantages in the event of multiple injuries.
 
Good read.

4 player interchange plus two subs is the the answer in my opinion. This will ensure that in the vast majority of cases, subbing a concussed player will not leave the team down a rotation and therefore not majorly disadvantage a team.

This should also ensure that players hopefully won't try to stay on the field with a mild concussion and doctors won't be as hesitant at diagnosing a player with concussion, as the consequences of that player being subbed won't be so severe (still leaves four vs four on the bench). This not a perfect system, as it doesn't eliminate all bias, but its a hell of a lot better than the current one. Maybe a player suspected of concussion should be referred to a AFL appointed doctor before he can take the field again to eliminate club bias?

Thanks HBF.

Yes I think this would alleviate a large percentage of the 'interpretation bias' though possibly very few Melbournites could claim to have no bias re this team or that team I suspect!

I deplore the thought and possibility of results of important games hingeing on this type of thing; hence some expansion of numbers, either subs or allowing the emergency players to front up, would also reduce the odds of teams cynically using this new rule to increase their chances of victory.

The intent of the rule is excellent from the medical perspective, but in the mad haste to suddenly bring it in, it has come with no planning to obviate some pretty gob smackingly obvious logistic concerns.

Appreciate the feedback from all posters btw. :thumbsu:
 
Thanks HBF.

Yes I think this would alleviate a large percentage of the 'interpretation bias' though possibly very few Melbournites could claim to have no bias re this team or that team I suspect!

I deplore the thought and possibility of results of important games hingeing on this type of thing; hence some expansion of numbers, either subs or allowing the emergency players to front up, would also reduce the odds of teams cynically using this new rule to increase their chances of victory.

The intent of the rule is excellent from the medical perspective, but in the mad haste to suddenly bring it in, it has come with no planning to obviate some pretty gob smackingly obvious logistic concerns.

Appreciate the feedback from all posters btw. :thumbsu:

Yep, good intentions from the AFL but its effectiveness is going to be somewhat hampered by a secondary motive that Quicky pointed out which is to try and slow down the game. The game will evolve by itself and should be a very minor problem for the AFL, whereas the concussion rule (especially with the Daniel Bell case coming to light) is a very important issue that i had no problems with the AFL addressing as soon as they did. However the AFL have tried to kill two birds with one stone and it isn't going to completely solve either problem. As Dave said, if the AFL are worried about the speed of the game (which they have obviously attributed to the rising interchanges) why didn't they just cap interchanges?
 

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Just because you are groggy and dizzy doesn't mean you have concussion and I've had a couple

You can have concussion and show no symptoms but have no idea where you are, just like you can not have concussion and be falling all of themselves. Clarke is a good example of this

The concussion rule is good though IF we trust our doctors to male the right call, I don't think it will work all that well with the limited interchange.
 
The concussion rule is good though IF we trust our doctors to male the right call, I don't think it will work all that well with the limited interchange.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion

There are so many classifications of what concussion is...not even the experts can agree, even just in theory of what concussion is, and the various levels are.

Let alone in real life practice. It's hard for the Drs to make the 'right call'.

So much of medical advice is arguable either way. Was Jack unconscious for a few seconds today or not, sometimes even that's in dispute.

You could seriously get 5-6 opinions from 10 Drs on management of many given clinical situations.

Clarke and Riewoldt looked very similarly affected by their respective knocks, this week and last week.

Last week they let Clarke back on in six minutes...tonight a different set of Drs kept Jack off all night. They did the right thing tonight by the look...yet quite possibly it may have cost Richmond the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion

If Geelong were playing the Grand Final this weekend, instead of Round 2, would Selwood still be omitted..
Their Drs may well find justification that he was fine to play, no question.

It's so subjective, that's the problem with this rule...I think the AFL need to sit down with a panel of neurologists and try and get some sort of consensus on guidelines and interpretations. And have a neutral Dr on duty to make the final call, perhaps after discussion with the teams Dr who can provide background info.

And then provide extra bench cover for the coaches, so as not to overly jeopardise the team's chances of still winning the game.
 
I think Doctors generally get it right. They start at the point of erring on the side of the player not playing if there is the slightest bit of doubt.
I think that is a good position to have
 
The idea of protecting players from further harm due to concussion has a lot of merit.

The way the AFL have implemented the concussion rule to protect players has created a moral hazard.

Consider the following:

It's Grand Final day and your team is 10 goals behind half way through the second quarter. Do you start taking out players behind play or wrecklessly bump them while their head is over the ball? I am not saying that many players would resort to these tactics, but there is certainly a minority out there that will stoop to this level.

Also, what happens if five players in your team have been concussed in a single game?

The AFL needs to consider giving teams additional subs, not just one. They have rushed this rule through without carefully considering all of the consequences.
 
It's a great discussion Swooop.

Despite all the guff about the reduced interchange bench reducing collision injuries it is clear that was just a smokescreen by the AFL for the real motivation behind the move to slow the speed of the game down. The AFL want this because it opens the game up, creates more traditional one on ones and increases the spectacle of the game (in their opinion anyway*). With that in mind I can't see the Than Shwe's and Ghuddafi's at AFL HQ really giving a shit. They've shown no real interest in a genuine consultation process. The kind where you listen to stakeholders opinions. They'd rather tell the interests this is how it is going to be and label it a consultation process so the punters will believe it was fair and above board.

Had a problem with this statement. I've been listening to KB all week and he has had no problem saying that this was the intention of the rule, so I'd hardly call it a smokescreen given how open he has been in saying that this was the intention (and that reduced collisions were a result of that).
 
If you all want a taste of reality look at the first 1.5 rounds.
Sides, wary that they may now be fatigued in the last quarter without the additional interchange are now hitting the ball harder and faster in the first quarter to try and establish an early lead which will be harder to overcome as players get shagged out later in the game.

Watch for numerous impact and head injuries in the first quarter and half in games this season....which if anything an increase rather than a decrease in number and severity.
 

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If you all want a taste of reality look at the first 1.5 rounds.
Sides, wary that they may now be fatigued in the last quarter without the additional interchange are now hitting the ball harder and faster in the first quarter to try and establish an early lead which will be harder to overcome as players get shagged out later in the game.

Watch for numerous impact and head injuries in the first quarter and half in games this season....which if anything an increase rather than a decrease in number and severity.

I was thinking the same thing tonight. They've stuffed up big-time with the sub rule IMO. Should be 4 on the bench, but being able to sub the emergencies (you could name 3).
 

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