Corona virus, Port and the AFL. Part 4.

[dav3]

Anti vaxer is a term that used to have a clear meaning: People who were against vaccinations and would fight to refuse them and stop others from using them.

Its currently a term used to describe a whole range of beliefs:
1. People who would prefer to wait for more empirical data before committing to a vaccine
2. People who take vaccines, but don't want to take one of the current crop of covid vaccines
3. People who are willing to take some covid vaccines (eg protein subunit), but not others (eg viral vector)
4. People who are pro-vaccines, but are also pro-medical choice
5. People who are pro-vaccines and pro-vaccine mandates in some industries, but not in others
6. People who have taken the vaccine, but are against booster shots
7. People who are accepting of current covid vaccines and current government policy, but are also willing to point out the issues with the current crop of covid vaccines
8. People who believe vaccines cause autism and the new covid vaccines have 5G chips in them so Bill Gates and the satanists can spy on us all

So when you use comments that only really apply to those in point 8 and apply them to everybody in points 1-7 (I'm not saying you do this, but I've certainly seen it happen), its a massive oversimplification. All it does is divide people further and prevent meaningful conversation because to them you are now a "woke snowflake" attacking them, and they are now a crazy anti vaxer.

Well shit............ guess we better think of some crazy acronym like LGBQTIABCDEFG so we can truly represent all the anti-vax clowns

 

[edgie]

Awww now who’s the snowflake?

I'm assuming you are the snowflake because you seem to have taken some offence to what I said.

At least I always have tried to put arguments and links as to why I feel the way I do and I usually read the oppo links and arguments too, which is more than they do in return.

Yes and good work for that, but you (and others) are still happy to throw around anti vax toward anyone that isn't entirely on board with having a great big **** full of MRNA fire off a gallon sized load up the clacker, mandated by government at frequent intervals to exist to a comparable lifestyle of 2019, with full intent to lump them together with the most extreme fringes of society, then claim enlightenment. The same that though border closures were inhumane in late 2019/early 2020 that could have prevented this mess.

 

[tribey]

Really? Can you give me an example of this happening? Before covid the anti-vax playbook was to be against vaccinations and to try to stop them so I'm not sure how this could be possible.

An admittedly crude but high-profile example, but one that is oft-repeated — usually in concert with mangling the definition of “unavoidably unsafe” [technically nothing is] — De Niro, who believes his son became autistic due to a vaccine, aired the Andrew Wakefield documentary ‘Vaxxed’ at his Tribeca film festival and once paired up with anti-vax svengali RFK Jr to offer $100,000 to ‘prove vaccines were safe’.

On the surface, it seems like a completely logical stance. In reality it’s a thinly-disguised dogwhistle.

Another example is the Crows’ AFLW player/ICU nurse. She’s banging on about medical freedom and bodily autonomy.

Where was her protests about her bodily autonomy when she was required to have all her other mandated vaccines in order to work? All of those carried the (rare) risk of adverse reactions.

What about the ‘medical freedom’ of her stricken patients to not be in the presence of someone who is unvaccinated and thus magnitudes more likely to become infected with the virus and potentially pass it onto them?

So while there are good faith concerns (and yes, there are people who are genuine in their concerns), there are a ton of bad faith excuses dressed up as good, a la “I’m just asking questions”.

This is the point I'm getting at. People have stopped listening to each other. Once someone goes outside their groupthink they just attribute the characteristics of the worst possible snowman to them and anything they say that runs contrary to that is a lie or misrepresentation.

in a lot of other stuff too, examples:
"I don't like X news source" = "Oh its because you must like Y news source you Y news watcher!"
"I didn't like this movie/tv show/book because it had a poor storyline" = "Oh its because the main character is X demographic which you secretly hate!"

Yeah, but beyond poisonous discourse the issues and objective reality still remain.

 

[edgie]

Lol funny to hear that about De Niro, is he still a shining beacon of Hollywood progressive values because he wanted to bash Trump? Perhaps he and the Don have more in common than Bob thought?

 

[backtozero]

It’s also a simplification to assume everyone giving reasoning 1-7 is a rational actor in good faith.

Many of those reasons have long been part of the anti-vax playbook, well before COVID.

You'll always have this point of view so long so you refuse to see the glaring differences between these covid vaccines and traditional vaccines that we've been exposed to for years, whether that be on the subject of adverse reactions, their effectiveness, waning immunity and the need for ongoing boosters, the coercion from government and the complete disregard for natural immunity.
I guess if you have any questions with that stuff, you'd just be happy with smallpox making a comeback or something huh?

 

[tribey]

You'll always have this point of view so long so you refuse to see the glaring differences between these covid vaccines and traditional vaccines that we've been exposed to for years, whether that be on the subject of adverse reactions, their effectiveness, waning immunity and the need for ongoing boosters,

This is true of all vaccines to varying degrees, though:

Potential for adverse reactions?
Spectrum of efficacy?
Waning immunity?
Ongoing boosters?

the coercion from government and the complete disregard for natural immunity.

Neither here nor there. We’ve already had vaccine mandates and other coercive measures (No Jab/No Pay; No Jab/No Play). Natural immunity is far more hit and miss than vaccines (COVID or otherwise) — some people have a strong response, others notsomuch.

And running the gamut of the disease itself is a helluva way to try to become immune to it. The same argument was made against the MMR: “it’s better to get measles than be vaccinated against it!”

I guess if you have any questions with that stuff, you'd just be happy with smallpox making a comeback or something huh?

You’re free to ask questions, but you have to be prepared to accept the answers.

 

[dirty2]

Sounds like alot of people arnt happy with there 5g coverage.

 

[Papa G]

Lol funny to hear that about De Niro, is he still a shining beacon of Hollywood progressive values because he wanted to bash Trump? Perhaps he and the Don have more in common than Bob thought?

The anti vaxxers must be a bit perplexing for the Cliquers. They can't box them into the Alt Right nutjobs, as much as they want to, as many anti vaxxers are your smelly underarmpitted lefties too.

 

[backtozero]

Potential for adverse reactions?
Spectrum of efficacy?
Waning immunity?
Ongoing boosters?

Discrepancies between covid vaccines vs. traditional vaccines in everything mentioned here, which was exactly my point.

You can't possibly think that fully vaccinated people dying of covid, 6 monthly booster shots, the non-sterilising nature of the vaccine that allows the disease to still be spread and the risk of heart inflammation in young people that has seen it being suspended for use in children in several countries is directly comparable to any other vaccine currently in use.

That would be naive at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.

 

[pastmyprimus]

Discrepancies between covid vaccines vs. traditional vaccines in everything mentioned here, which was exactly my point.

You can't possibly think that fully vaccinated people dying of covid, 6 monthly booster shots, the non-sterilising nature of the vaccine that allows the disease to still be spread and the risk of heart inflammation in young people that has seen it being suspended for use in children in several countries is directly comparable to any other vaccine currently in use.

That would be naive at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.

That's ignoring all of the good the vaccines have done in saving lives and avoiding hospitalisations. That's the other side of the coin. Without the vaccines the world would be much worse off. All the negativity, some of it unjustified, is a bit hard to fathom.

 

[backtozero]

That's ignoring all of the good the vaccines have done in saving lives and avoiding hospitalisations. That's the other side of the coin. Without the vaccines the world would be much worse off. All the negativity, some of it unjustified, is a bit hard to fathom.

No it isn't. Quite the opposite.

 

[tribey]

Discrepancies between covid vaccines vs. traditional vaccines in everything mentioned here, which was exactly my point.

You can't possibly think that fully vaccinated people dying of covid

Fully-vaccinated people die of flu.

6 monthly booster shots,

Partial childhood schedule. Boosters aren’t a new concept. 6 months will probably stretch to 12 (a la flu shots) once more data comes in.

the non-sterilising nature of the vaccine that allows the disease to still be spread

Breakthrough cases occur with other vaccines too.

and the risk of heart inflammation in young people that has seen it being suspended for use in children in several countries is directly comparable to any other vaccine currently in use.

Childhood vaccines can lead to anaphylaxis and potentially fatal febrile seizures (hence parents are encouraged to dose with paracetamol). Rare risks > disease.

That would be naive at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.

I’m acknowledging [all] vaccines are imperfect though? You seem to have convinced yourself there’s a magical safety delineation between old timey vaccines and the spooky COVID era.

 

[G3TWOTYAD3S3RV]

You do make a good point, I was thinking the same as I posted so I perhaps was a bit hasty.

I understand the hesitant, I was a bit hesitant with the AZ at first but when I really looked at the statistics I decided to go ahead. I trust mainstream science or talking to scientists I know, research scientists etc. and reading, listening qnd I want to do my part to decrease the spread. I accept some have concerns. Delta is on another level though and tampering at the edges or letting it rip is not something I could agree with.

I need to find a term for anti vaxers who disrupt society, are violent in their cause, abuse health care workers, spread disinformation, call covid a fraud or a flu. Those ones.

What do you give a shit who’s vaxed & who’s not ? You’re “protected “ right ? Don’t panic man.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[pastmyprimus]

No it isn't. Quite the opposite.

Some people do have negative mindsets. The vaccines are worth celebrating

 

[backtozero]

Fully-vaccinated people die of flu.



View attachment 1278100

Partial childhood schedule. Boosters aren’t a new concept. 6 months will probably stretch to 12 (a la flu shots) once more data comes in.



Breakthrough cases occur with other vaccines too.



Childhood vaccines can lead to anaphylaxis and potentially fatal febrile seizures (hence parents are encouraged to dose with paracetamol). Rare risks > disease.



I’m acknowledging [all] vaccines are imperfect though? You seem to have convinced yourself there’s a magical safety delineation between old timey vaccines and the spooky COVID era.

You're still acting as if the efficacy and the rate of adverse reactions is the same as what we're used to traditionally. That isn't the case.

 

[tribey]

That's ignoring all of the good the vaccines have done in saving lives and avoiding hospitalisations. That's the other side of the coin. Without the vaccines the world would be much worse off. All the negativity, some of it unjustified, is a bit hard to fathom.

See Japan and the spookshow that caused them to withdraw the HPV vaccine.

~3,000 annual deaths from cervical cancer alone thanks to a single study in mice

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

An illegal house party held in Canberra's south over Halloween and attended largely by ACT school students has become a COVID-19 super-spreader event.

Health Minister Rachel Stephen-Smith said that 33 of the ACT's COVID-19 cases could be linked to the party, held at a private residence in Wanniassa on October 30.

"ACT Health advised yesterday that 33 cases have now been linked to an event and that is a matter for ACT Policing in terms of the investigation around that event," she told ABC Radio Canberra this morning.

 

[edgie]

That's ignoring all of the good the vaccines have done in saving lives and avoiding hospitalisations. That's the other side of the coin. Without the vaccines the world would be much worse off. All the negativity, some of it unjustified, is a bit hard to fathom.

Here's the example, you're assuming that he's all in on anti vaccine and that he doesn't agree with or acknowledge any of the positive stuff already. You are assuming he's 'ignoring all the good'.

All in, one way or the other, go to the extremes.

 

[tribey]

You're still acting as if the efficacy and the rate of adverse reactions is the same as what we're used to traditionally. That isn't the case.

‘Efficacy’ measured against what, specifically? Because if your yardstick is the polio vaccine, sure. But that’s like saying a Toyota Camry sucks because it can’t beat Verstappen around Monaco.

You should be measuring against zero.

And which adverse reactions? Versus which vaccine? Perhaps provide some data to peruse?

 

[FishingRick04]

You do make a good point, I was thinking the same as I posted so I perhaps was a bit hasty.

I understand the hesitant, I was a bit hesitant with the AZ at first but when I really looked at the statistics I decided to go ahead. I trust mainstream science or talking to scientists I know, research scientists etc. and reading, listening qnd I want to do my part to decrease the spread. I accept some have concerns. Delta is on another level though and tampering at the edges or letting it rip is not something I could agree with.

I need to find a term for anti vaxers who disrupt society, are violent in their cause, abuse health care workers, spread disinformation, call covid a fraud or a flu. Those ones.

Maybe don't label anyone?

Every single human does something some else will think is stupid. Judgement is creating the divide currently. This forum is a perfect snapshot of society,

 

[pastmyprimus]

Here's the example, you're assuming that he's all in on anti vaccine and that he doesn't agree with or acknowledge any of the positive stuff already. You are assuming he's 'ignoring all the good'.

All in, one way or the other, go to the extremes.

I'm not assuming he's anti-vax. In fact BacktoZero has said he's fully vaccinated. I just haven't seen too much +ve stuff about the vaccines in his posts

 

[backtozero]

‘Efficacy’ measured against what, specifically? Because if your yardstick is the polio vaccine, sure. But that’s like saying a Toyota Camry sucks because it can’t beat Verstappen around Monaco.

Efficacy measured against any vac
cine in which people don't end up dying of said disease despite being vaccinated. Or against any vaccine which you're given as a child and only need once in your entire life or maybe periodically over the span of several years or even decades.

Which would be all of them, except for the flu vaccine.

You just mentioned the polio vax as being an unfair comparison but for some reason used it as a talking point several times in the past.

And which adverse reactions? Versus which vaccine? Perhaps provide some data to peruse?

Myocarditis, pericarditis. Mrna vaccines suspended for use in children in the Nordic countries and now Taiwan. Enough adverse events that they decided the risks outweigh the benefits.

VAERS reporting is freely available.

 

[backtozero]

I'm not assuming he's anti-vax. In fact BacktoZero has said he's fully vaccinated. I just haven't seen too much +ve stuff about the vaccines in his posts

I've said many times, if you're old, overweight and have health issues, go get it.

 

[edgie]

I'm not assuming he's anti-vax. In fact BacktoZero has said he's fully vaccinated. I just haven't seen too much +ve stuff about the vaccines in his posts

Well if he is vaxxed himself it is bold to assume he is ignoring all the good? Hey backtozero why did you do something to yourself that isn't at all good? No good whatsoever?

 

[Lagooner]

The anti vaxxers must be a bit perplexing for the Cliquers. They can't box them into the Alt Right nutjobs, as much as they want to, as many anti vaxxers are your smelly underarmpitted lefties too.

It’s not perplexing at all Pap they’re in a bipartisan box labelled “Dumbarses.”