Crows Chat That 'Doesnt Deserve Its Own Thread' Thread part 2

[Tex200]

Your second paragraph disputes your first. You group a bunch of people as having one belief and then talk about how you can't group people into having one belief.

It seems people don't like to be told they are part of a group and everyone in that group is like "this" and thinks "that". But everybody loves putting other people in a group and saying everyone in that group is like "this" and thinks "that".

Yes I see that now and it's a fair point that you make

 

[Niximus]

If the club was to implement your policy of having nothing to do with people that profess certain things, we would restrict our associations with other organisations.

We've already determined that there are 'certain things' that you feel the same way about, right?

You would want to club to have nothing to do with an openly racist organisation, right? You would want the club to have nothing to do with an organisation that supports the right to beat your spouse, right?

I'm using these extreme examples to show you that we agree on the principle, our disagreement is on what is against our values enough that we'd want to distance ourselves from it.

 

[Tex200]

It's a concern that has absolutely no basis in reality.

Rest assured, religion's ability to discriminate against gays, women and whoever they want will not be affected by same-sex marriage.

Are you worried that a catholic priest would be forced to perform my non-religious wedding because I, as an atheist can legally be married?

I know that's exactly what many church's are concerned about.

Gay couple demands to be married by priest, priest refuses, claim lodged, priest ordered to perform marriage.

All I'm saying is the perception of that outcome is very real and hurts your cause.

 

[Drakescoffeecake]

Did anyone else know what the Salvo's view on same sex marriage was before this discussion?

Yes. I never give to them. In fact I've got into discussion about it a few times with some of their tin rattlers.

Good from afar but far from good.

 

[Niximus]

I know that's exactly what many church's are concerned about.

Gay couple demands to be married by priest, priest refuses, claim lodged, priest ordered to perform marriage.

All I'm saying is the perception of that outcome is very real and hurts your cause.

It's an unfounded fear, and amusing in a depressing kind of way "we need to continue to discriminate against these people in this way, or else we might not be able to continue to discriminate against them in this other way".

It's like the email I got from my mum, (Fwd: Fwd: Fwd: of course) urging everyone to mark christian on their census lest the Muslims outnumber the Christians and Australia would be officially declared a Muslim country.

Totally ignoring the fact that on the last census over 60% of Australians indicated they were Christian to 2% Muslim to 20% no religion and the fact that regardless of how many people follow a particular religion Australia does not have an official religion and would continue to do so even if by some magic the Muslims became a majority.

 

[dogs105]

Nobody is proposing disallowing the Salvos from having their oh so important opinion. Nobody is muting them.

They are more than free to spout any nonsense they want, and we're free to express disappointment that the club would associate with them.

Is it possible to associate with this initiative, but not all of their beliefs? That's where I'm coming from.

 

[beartoo]

I have vested interest in matters around this debate. One of my daughters is gay and had a child by artificial means. As she is no longer in a relationship, she is bringing the child up as a sole parent. My wife and I did not remonstrate with her when she came out. We accepted her partner as part of our family circle. But having one of your children make the decision to embark on the gay lifestyle forces you to confront some hard questions. Is this the path I wanted for her?--no--I don't think that makes me a homophobe. Am I happy that my granddaughter is growing up predominantly around gays?--no--am I a homophobe? Going a bit further--if my wife and I had died while our children were young, would I be happy to have them fostered by a same-sex couple?--no--once again, I don't think that makes me a homophobe.
I believe that children need male and female role models in their lives. Teenagers go through a period of uncertainty about sexuality and strong influences can bend them in one direction or another. I could tell you the story about the actors' training college where a number of my friends discovered they were heterosexual later in life. The gay influence of their teachers at a formative age had a marked effect on who and what they thought they were. Interestingly some of these people are now in straight marriages to each other.
Niximus, I enjoy your posts on footy. I'll leave the debate here.

 

[Drakescoffeecake]

But having one of your children make the decision to embark on the gay lifestyle

"Decision" ... "embark" ....

When will people learn that it's not a choice?

 

[beartoo]

"Decision" ... "embark" ....

When will people learn that it's not a choice?

Sorry, wrong terminology. I accept your rebuke.

 

[Drakescoffeecake]

I could tell you the story about the actors' training college where a number of my friends discovered they were heterosexual later in life. The gay influence of their teachers at a formative age had a marked effect on who and what they thought they were.

That's very naive.

 

[Niximus]

But having one of your children make the decision to embark on a mixed-race relationship forces you to confront some hard questions. Is this the path I wanted for her?--no--I don't think that makes me a racist. Am I happy that my granddaughter is growing up predominantly around blacks?--no--am I a racist? Going a bit further--if my wife and I had died while our children were young, would I be happy to have them fostered by a mixed-race couple?--no--once again, I don't think that makes me a racist.

...

 

[Drakescoffeecake]

 

[Niximus]

"Decision" ... "embark" ....

When will people learn that it's not a choice?

And also that sexuality isn't a simple gay v straight or even static.

 

[Rotayjay]

Rowey and Bicks getting all offended when someone rings up saying that van Berlo is not AFL standard.

You have got to be joking. If those two were selectors, van Berlo and Mackay would play every single game. Throw in Matthew Wright too - he'd still be on the list and playing every game.

 

[Mego Red]

We already run seperate legislation with the various state de facto relationships acts.

The other issue that I know religious groups are very concerned about is that if the law is changed, the first thing a militant gay couple will do is ask say, a catholic priest to marry them. If they are refused then the inevitable discrimination claim comes.

What has a priest got to do with marriage??

This feels as foolish to me as the "people will start marrying animals" argument.

I am completely fine with churches saying they will only marry people of opposite genders. The church part of marriage is irrelevant.

But I don't believe that marriage is something that only male-female relationships should have. That should be made available to all loving, legal relationships.

 

[Mego Red]

. I could tell you the story about the actors' training college where a number of my friends discovered they were heterosexual later in life. The gay influence of their teachers at a formative age had a marked effect on who and what they thought they were. Interestingly some of these people are now in straight marriages to each other.
Niximus, I enjoy your posts on footy. I'll leave the debate here.

I don't mean to be rude, but a few comments you've made in your post do sound ignorant.

I won't pass an opinion on your daughter, or on your views of the ability of loving gay parents to successfully raise children. My personal views are that parent's sexuality has little impact on a child's emotional development. Christ knows I've avoided thinking about MY parents sexuality.

I do have to comment on the view that "gay influence of teachers at a formative age" is in any way relevant.

You don't become gay because your teacher somehow encourages you (I almost typed "rubs off on you").

People CAN be sexually curious in college and that curiosity can lead to them ultimately knowing they're straight (or gay). But they don't somehow "catch gay" from someone influential.

 

[Mego Red]

beartoo - I didn't want to delete my comment above, but I want to say again that I don't know you or your daughter and don't have any right to hold a view on your relationship.

 

[1970crow]

So what's happened here? We've partnered with the Salvo's to help kids or something and the righteous are up in arms. ******* everywhere these days.

 

[crowded house]

I think its fair to point out that the Salvo's are a religion, not just a charity. Most people (including me) ignore this because of the good they do. But in the end they're based on a religious ideology which it is fair to criticize.

It we teamed up with a muslim organization to do the same thing you can bet there would be outrage.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

Footy

 

[1970crow]

I think its fair to point out that the Salvo's are a religion, not just a charity. Most people (including me) ignore this because of the good they do. But in the end they're based on a religious ideology which it is fair to criticize.

It we teamed up with a muslim organization to do the same thing you can bet there would be outrage.

Why would anyone care if we teamed up with a Muslim organisation. Obviously if it's a terrorist group it'd be a bit different. Half our members could be religious and have similar views, why can't we partner with an organisation that reflects their views. What happened to tolerance of other people's views? Who could we partner with to do anything worthy without upsetting some group of people. I think anyone who believes in an all powerful God has a mental defect. And I cannot understand why anyone would have a problem with gay people getting married. But the amount of hullabaloo that seems to be prevailing over a decision to help some kids with an organisation that does much more good than harm is sickening. It's getting to the point where I'm disliking these righteous efftards more than the bigoted, small minded numpties they're attacking. The only view anyone is entitled to seems to be theirs.

 

[Mego Red]

Everyone is entitled to their own view.

I'm uncomfortable with our club partnering with a church group, but it obviously it comes from wanting to do the right thing. I can't imagine that many people in the Salvos actually believe the "gay people must die" rhetoric.

One thing though - not every view is equal. People who hold prejudiced views or who's view is "global warming is fake and vaccinations cause autism" - those views aren't equal.

Though maybe that's just my view.

 

[Bicks]

Nice story on Grand Final hero Shane Ellen in this article....among other former SA luminaries.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/lifes...k=52326a222ad97381cd60e2446edda2ac-1470410728

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

...

That's really unfair

 

[Tex200]

I think its fair to point out that the Salvo's are a religion, not just a charity. Most people (including me) ignore this because of the good they do. But in the end they're based on a religious ideology which it is fair to criticize.

It we teamed up with a muslim organization to do the same thing you can bet there would be outrage.

Ha ha - imagine if we teamed with a Muslim organisation and anyone breathed so much as a single word against that?

There would be hell to pay