Current Champions of the Game?

[Cursed Cat]

Bang on. There seems to be some sort of confusion about what constitutes a champion player. Is it longevity? John Blakey played a squillion games, yet I wouldn't put him in that category. Is it accolades? The Woewodin argument has been done to death but it's still valid up to a point. Is it premierships? Martin Pike has 4 of them, but surely doesn't figure. Is it consistent excellence over x amount of years? That's probably getting closer to the nub of it.

All the flags and B&Fs and medals are handy guides to a player's status, but personally I think the thing that really counts is the big moment in the big game, and champions are the ones who relish in taking those opportunities. For this reason, I rate Bartel higher than most here. He's the go-to guy for those pressure moments. He wants to be the one with the responsibility.

If I could pick any current player to kick for goal after the siren to win a flag, I'd pick Bartel. Carey was the same (not that I am comparing the two); he wanted to be the 'one', to have the ball in his hands when the moment came. Ablett Snr, when he was switched on, had this attitude. He was allegedly heard to say prior to the 1989 grand final "Just get it down to me boys, and I'll do the rest." Didn't quite pan out but it wasn't through lack of trying.

Anyway, the heat of finals is where champion quality comes to the fore and Bartel has been instrumental in each of Geelong's flags. 2007; kicked a crushing goal late in the first quarter against Port and collected 30 odd and a couple of goals. 2009; switched to defense mode, sacrificed his own game and locked a rampant Lenny Hayes out of the game. 2011; again deferred from playing midfield and patched holes where needed, plus kicked 3 incredibly important goals, all difficult, all very timely. He was serviceable in 2008 which is more than can be said for quite a few Geelong players, Ablett excepted, but let's just forget about that for a moment...

He hasn't been an elite midfielder in terms of numbers for a while, but not because he lacks the ability any more. It's more because Geelong don't need him to be that. He has greater value as a Mr Fixit-style utility these days. It's never going to get him AA honours, but it wins games for Geelong.

Bit of a Bartel fest there. Point being he embodies what I consider to be champion quality. Never wavers, there at the crucial moment more often than not. Lenny Hayes is the same kind of player in his own way, as was Voss. Bartel doesn't quite have the edge that Voss had in his game, but that aside I think they compare pretty favorably at the moment.

Pavlich is a gun player, appears to have all the bases covered and is physically far more gifted than Bartel, but doesn't have that last ounce in him to make him really want to be 'the guy'.

I'll take Bartel, Hodge, Scarlett, Judd, Hayes, Aaron Fiora... in the real heat, when the pressure is dialled up to 12, those are guys I want to be relying on.

supreme post.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Bang on. There seems to be some sort of confusion about what constitutes a champion player. Is it longevity? John Blakey played a squillion games, yet I wouldn't put him in that category. Is it accolades? The Woewodin argument has been done to death but it's still valid up to a point. Is it premierships? Martin Pike has 4 of them, but surely doesn't figure. Is it consistent excellence over x amount of years? That's probably getting closer to the nub of it.

All the flags and B&Fs and medals are handy guides to a player's status, but personally I think the thing that really counts is the big moment in the big game, and champions are the ones who relish in taking those opportunities. For this reason, I rate Bartel higher than most here. He's the go-to guy for those pressure moments. He wants to be the one with the responsibility.

If I could pick any current player to kick for goal after the siren to win a flag, I'd pick Bartel. Carey was the same (not that I am comparing the two); he wanted to be the 'one', to have the ball in his hands when the moment came. Ablett Snr, when he was switched on, had this attitude. He was allegedly heard to say prior to the 1989 grand final "Just get it down to me boys, and I'll do the rest." Didn't quite pan out but it wasn't through lack of trying.

Anyway, the heat of finals is where champion quality comes to the fore and Bartel has been instrumental in each of Geelong's flags. 2007; kicked a crushing goal late in the first quarter against Port and collected 30 odd and a couple of goals. 2009; switched to defense mode, sacrificed his own game and locked a rampant Lenny Hayes out of the game. 2011; again deferred from playing midfield and patched holes where needed, plus kicked 3 incredibly important goals, all difficult, all very timely. He was serviceable in 2008 which is more than can be said for quite a few Geelong players, Ablett excepted, but let's just forget about that for a moment...

He hasn't been an elite midfielder in terms of numbers for a while, but not because he lacks the ability any more. It's more because Geelong don't need him to be that. He has greater value as a Mr Fixit-style utility these days. It's never going to get him AA honours, but it wins games for Geelong.

Bit of a Bartel fest there. Point being he embodies what I consider to be champion quality. Never wavers, there at the crucial moment more often than not. Lenny Hayes is the same kind of player in his own way, as was Voss. Bartel doesn't quite have the edge that Voss had in his game, but that aside I think they compare pretty favorably at the moment.

Pavlich is a gun player, appears to have all the bases covered and is physically far more gifted than Bartel, but doesn't have that last ounce in him to make him really want to be 'the guy'.

I'll take Bartel, Hodge, Scarlett, Judd, Hayes, Aaron Fiora... in the real heat, when the pressure is dialled up to 12, those are guys I want to be relying on.

Now that's a post that is well thought out! Agree with most of it, bar a few points. Voss and Bartel are in different leagues for mine. Voss = top 20/top 30 player to ever play in a lot of peoples books. But Bartel is a very, very good big game player. Similair to Hodge in that he plays well in most of the big games he plays. And yep Bartel would be one of the first players I would pick to kick after the siren to win a game. Franklins a freak in that regard as well as he seems to never miss in clutch games when we need a goal ( Adelaide 07 final, Collingwood 2011, last quarter of Sydney final in 2011 when he sealed the game etc etc ). Franklin, also has a higher goal average in finals than in H&A matches. Big game players are hard to find.

You and a couple of other posters have swayed me a bit re: Bartel and got me thinking. Even though Bartel might not perform as well in H&A games as other players, he saves his best for finals which is a huge plus.

Re: Pavlich, I feel sorry for him a bit in that regard. The guy is a freak of a footballer, but has played for a pretty shite side a lot of years and hasn't had the chance to really prove himself in finals. With Freo on the up though, he might still manage to turn his rep as a big game under-performer around.

 

[Cursed Cat]

Now that's a post that is well thought out! Agree with most of it, bar a few points. Voss and Bartel are in different leagues for mine. Voss = top 20/top 30 player to ever play in a lot of peoples books. But Bartel is a very, very good big game player. Similair to Hodge in that he plays well in most of the big games he plays. And yep Bartel would be one of the first players I would pick to kick after the siren to win a game. Franklins a freak in that regard as well as he seems to never miss in clutch games when we need a goal ( Adelaide 07 final, Collingwood 2011, last quarter of Sydney final in 2011 when he sealed the game etc etc ). Franklin, also has a higher goal average in finals than in H&A matches. Big game players are hard to find.

You and a couple of other posters have swayed me a bit re: Bartel and got me thinking. Even though Bartel might not perform as well in H&A games as other players, he saves his best for finals which is a huge plus.
Re: Pavlich, I feel sorry for him a bit in that regard. The guy is a freak of a footballer, but has played for a pretty shite side a lot of years and hasn't had the chance to really prove himself in finals. With Freo on the up though, he might still manage to turn his rep as a big game under-performer around.

I don't mean to nitpick when you have somewhat graciously conceded a point, but Bartel performs better than your average AFL player in H&A games, and better than your average good AFL player in BIG H&A games - if anything he tends to drift a bit in the more inconsequential games ...

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

I don't mean to nitpick when you have somewhat graciously conceded a point, but Bartel performs better than your average AFL player in H&A games, and better than your average good AFL player in BIG H&A games - if anything he tends to drift a bit in the more inconsequential games ...

I suppose I am hard on Bartel, but even though he performs better than most players in the H&A season ( even his average seasons he is broderline top 50/60 in the comp ), I have always thought he could do better over the length of the whole season. I don't think he could reach Ablett/Judd/Franklin like levels week in-week out, but he has the ability to be a top 20 player in the comp year in-year out.

I suppose it would be interesting to see if Bartels H&A performance picks up if Geelong start winning less games over the next few years, and then subsequently play in more closer games. Because he definitely does play better in games that mean more.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Bang on. There seems to be some sort of confusion about what constitutes a champion player. Is it longevity? John Blakey played a squillion games, yet I wouldn't put him in that category. Is it accolades? The Woewodin argument has been done to death but it's still valid up to a point. Is it premierships? Martin Pike has 4 of them, but surely doesn't figure. Is it consistent excellence over x amount of years? That's probably getting closer to the nub of it.

All the flags and B&Fs and medals are handy guides to a player's status, but personally I think the thing that really counts is the big moment in the big game, and champions are the ones who relish in taking those opportunities. For this reason, I rate Bartel higher than most here. He's the go-to guy for those pressure moments. He wants to be the one with the responsibility.

If I could pick any current player to kick for goal after the siren to win a flag, I'd pick Bartel. Carey was the same (not that I am comparing the two); he wanted to be the 'one', to have the ball in his hands when the moment came. Ablett Snr, when he was switched on, had this attitude. He was allegedly heard to say prior to the 1989 grand final "Just get it down to me boys, and I'll do the rest." Didn't quite pan out but it wasn't through lack of trying.

Anyway, the heat of finals is where champion quality comes to the fore and Bartel has been instrumental in each of Geelong's flags. 2007; kicked a crushing goal late in the first quarter against Port and collected 30 odd and a couple of goals. 2009; switched to defense mode, sacrificed his own game and locked a rampant Lenny Hayes out of the game. 2011; again deferred from playing midfield and patched holes where needed, plus kicked 3 incredibly important goals, all difficult, all very timely. He was serviceable in 2008 which is more than can be said for quite a few Geelong players, Ablett excepted, but let's just forget about that for a moment...

He hasn't been an elite midfielder in terms of numbers for a while, but not because he lacks the ability any more. It's more because Geelong don't need him to be that. He has greater value as a Mr Fixit-style utility these days. It's never going to get him AA honours, but it wins games for Geelong.

Bit of a Bartel fest there. Point being he embodies what I consider to be champion quality. Never wavers, there at the crucial moment more often than not. Lenny Hayes is the same kind of player in his own way, as was Voss. Bartel doesn't quite have the edge that Voss had in his game, but that aside I think they compare pretty favorably at the moment.

Pavlich is a gun player, appears to have all the bases covered and is physically far more gifted than Bartel, but doesn't have that last ounce in him to make him really want to be 'the guy'.

I'll take Bartel, Hodge, Scarlett, Judd, Hayes, Aaron Fiora... in the real heat, when the pressure is dialled up to 12, those are guys I want to be relying on.

Excellent post!! Other than the bolded. Am I missing something??

 

[Cursed Cat]

I suppose I am hard on Bartel, but even though he performs better than most players in the H&A season ( even his average seasons he is broderline top 50/60 in the comp ), I have always thought he could do better over the length of the whole season. I don't think he could reach Ablett/Judd/Franklin like levels week in-week out, but he has the ability to be a top 20 player in the comp year in-year out.

I suppose it would be interesting to see if Bartels H&A performance picks up if Geelong start winning less games over the next few years, and then subsequently play in more closer games. Because he definitely does play better in games that mean more.

I hear what you're saying and won't bother arguing any minute differences of opinion, we might not be on the same page but we are reading from the same prayer book, as the saying goes ...
If Bartel were slightly more consistent during the Home&Away season he might have chalked up another AA selection or two - he has been close from '09-'11, and his good form has been reflected by his strong placings in Geelongs B&F count.

Personally though I doubt Bartel's perfomance will pick up over the next few years, if he can maintain the same output that he has produced over the past 5 or so years then I will be more than content.

Absolutely stoked that he signed a (I think) 4 year contract last year - some eyebrows were raised over the length of the contract, but even in a worse-case scenario of injuries or diminished form he is such a great character to have around the club that the benefits will outweigh the negatives no matter what his onfield output is.

anyway, enough Bartel.