"Depressing" Outlook as Euro 2012 Stadium Work Falls Five Months Behind

[McCrann]

Surprise, surprise - another country struggles under the weight of constructing large stadiums up and down the country. These things are expensive and it looks certain that Greece (2004 Olympics) and Portugal (2004 European Championships) and South Africa (2010 World Cup) won't be the last countries to put themselves into stupid amounts of debt to get the "prestige" of hosting.

What a crock.

"We're not very concerned about Wroclaw. Lviv is quite another matter. Much of the construction work is falling behind the schedule. There are problems with funding. It's time to act. Otherwise the stadium won't be completed on time," Kallen told futbolnews.pl in an interview that was quoted by Interfax.

He expressed hope that the stadia would be ready on time, and insisted that no final decision had yet been made.

http://www.worldfootballinsider.com/Story.aspx?id=33110

One has got to really hope that those making the decision to bid (In the Feds I mean) are awake to the fact they're in danger of being swindled out of billions of dollars.

Being a shopping centre owner - how many mates would Lowy have in the construction industry he could stitch up with some great stadium building work?

 

[Dimenhydrinate]

It's being hosted in Poland and Ukraine, FFS! Those countries couldn't organise a school raffle. Are you comparing Australia to them?

 

[Copernicus]

Frankly, you can't compare the finances of Greece, Portugal, South Africa, Ukraine and Poland with Australia. All of these nations are much less wealthy, and less capable of bearing the burden of expensive infrastructure projects.

 

[NTRabbit]

Frankly, you can't compare the finances of Greece, Portugal, South Africa, Ukraine and Poland with Australia. All of these nations are much less wealthy, and less capable of bearing the burden of expensive infrastructure projects.

I'm not even sure you can compare Greece with the others really, given the deep dark hole that country is in courtesy of a culture of corruption and "everything for cash, no records means no taxes" that is destroying their economy.

 

[mojito]

I'm not even sure you can compare Greece with the others really, given the deep dark hole that country is in courtesy of a culture of corruption and "everything for cash, no records means no taxes" that is destroying their economy.

Portugal, too, is up s**t creek with the economy. As is Spain.

Hardly think it derived from football though.

 

[Barkly St End]

The point is that big sporting events divert valuable infrastrcuture investment from areas that make an economy efficient and productive.

Sydney and NSW citizens under stand this only too well 10 years on after the Olympics.

 

[McCrann]

Portugal, too, is up s**t creek with the economy. As is Spain.

Hardly think it derived from football though.

I agree that the cause of their economic problems is far deeper than hosting a soccer tournament. That is not exactly the gist of the point I'm making.

The point I'm making is that these nations have gone out of their way to spend on things they can't afford - its that mentality that pervades their society (and particularly relevantly - the political class) and is the root cause of these problems.

Is that a mentality we really want to bring to this country - there are signs of it all over the place. The debt in Australia is huge at present - should we be adding to it?

Granted - the debt in Australia is not all, or mainly, public debt - but across the broader economy there is a lot of debt floating around.

 

[Barkly St End]

And one of the key strengths, to date, of the Australian economy has been the fact that public debt has been so low - meaning a next to zero amount of our taxes being diverted to just paying interest on debt - which is the norm around the world.

A soccer world cup would basically put us in the same category as every other nation on Earth - massive public debt - that's where we are heading already with this government.

 

[mojito]

I agree that the cause of their economic problems is far deeper than hosting a soccer tournament. That is not exactly the gist of the point I'm making.

The point I'm making is that these nations have gone out of their way to spend on things they can't afford - its that mentality that pervades their society (and particularly relevantly - the political class) and is the root cause of these problems.

Then why have you posted this here? By your own words it has little to do soccer and with the AFL v Association Football 'conflict' that is the entire premise of this board.

 

[Barkly St End]

Then why have you posted this here? By your own words it has little to do soccer and with the AFL v Association Football 'conflict' that is the entire premise of this board.

Wasting taxpayer money on soccer whims and fantasies is very much part of this board.

 

[chardonnay]

Frankly, you can't compare the finances of Greece, Portugal, South Africa, Ukraine and Poland with Australia. All of these nations are much less wealthy, and less capable of bearing the burden of expensive infrastructure projects.

& who are you suggesting will bear this burden ... the taxpayer ... what costs are in, whats not.
My fear is the new stadia will be paid off by the next generation who dont get to see the World Cup.
Then theres the cost of disrupting the AFL & NRL to use their current stadia, who meets that cost, who pays the club costs when their source of income is significantly reduced?

Greece is a basket case isnt it, will the EU end up paying for the 2004 Olympics thats a smile!

 

[merse]

Nice troll McCrann, epic fail....

 

[forwardpocket]

Australians have huge debt, so paying more taxes hurts and isn't that feasible. We're lucky China wants our minerals. But if China's economy stalls at any point in the next 12 years - we're in trouble. Or if the USA fades as a military political power - due to its crippling debt - then China may as world superpower put pressure to pay us a lot less for our minerals.

So Aust governments need to be responsible with finances.

 

[Copernicus]

& who are you suggesting will bear this burden ... the taxpayer ... what costs are in, whats not.
My fear is the new stadia will be paid off by the next generation who dont get to see the World Cup.
Then theres the cost of disrupting the AFL & NRL to use their current stadia, who meets that cost, who pays the club costs when their source of income is significantly reduced?

Greece is a basket case isnt it, will the EU end up paying for the 2004 Olympics thats a smile!

It's always going to be the taxpayers, unless private investment gets involved somehow. Can't really see that happening.

Really, it's moot unless our taxes are actually raised to pay for infrastructure improvements. Otherwise it's the same money going into the pot, being diverted to pay for something other than what it would normally be spent on (whatever that might be).

 

[stmookeyj]

Just out of interest when was the last time there wasn't a major sporting event whose venues were built ahead of or on schedule?

 

[finders]

Australians have huge debt, so paying more taxes hurts and isn't that feasible. We're lucky China wants our minerals. But if China's economy stalls at any point in the next 12 years - we're in trouble. Or if the USA fades as a military political power - due to its crippling debt - then China may as world superpower put pressure to pay us a lot less for our minerals.

So Aust governments need to be responsible with finances.

Very good summary!

The USA will eventually have to scale back their military operations due financial constraints (see Roman Empire) and China will become the most powerfull economic force the world has ever seen without firing one bullet-thank god they need our minerals.!

Another consideration is that with our population exploding ATM we will need all our finances spent on infrastructure not fancy sporting white elephants for a minority sport.

 

[usalion]

Just out of interest when was the last time there wasn't a major sporting event whose venues were built ahead of or on schedule?

Assuming I'm reading your statement correctly, and basing my answer on Olympics and world Cup, I'd suggest that two that were ready to go without construction snafus were the 1984 Olympics in LA and the 1994 USA World Cup, where staduia were in place already and little had to be done- some cosmetic changes to fields, like bringing the pitch oin for the Silverdome.

I'd make a guess that Germany in 2006 was on schedule- were there any new stadia built for that, por simply expansion on what was already there?

Atlanta in 96 had some scheduling problems in several areas....can't speak with authority on other events.

 

[McCrann]

Just out of interest when was the last time there wasn't a major sporting event whose venues were built ahead of or on schedule?

Beijing 2008 was ready to go pretty much on schedule wasn't it? But that is a whole different story really.

Assuming I'm reading your statement correctly, and basing my answer on Olympics and world Cup, I'd suggest that two that were ready to go without construction snafus were the 1984 Olympics in LA and the 1994 USA World Cup, where staduia were in place already and little had to be done- some cosmetic changes to fields, like bringing the pitch oin for the Silverdome.

I'd make a guess that Germany in 2006 was on schedule- were there any new stadia built for that, por simply expansion on what was already there?

Atlanta in 96 had some scheduling problems in several areas....can't speak with authority on other events.

There were a few new stadia built for Germany 2006 - I know of at least 1 of the top of my head.

The Allianz Arena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allianz_Arena
http://www.allianz-arena.de/en/

Given this stadium has two tenants - one of them being Bayern Munich - you can hardly argue this is a white elephant. It is actually a case of a World Cup perhaps bringing forward the building of a needed building.

In Australia - that possibly applies to Perth and Adelaide. Possibly. But it is almost certain new stadiums in these cities will be built by 2020 anyway. So its a tenuous argument.

 

[Dimenhydrinate]

There were a few new stadia built for Germany 2006 - I know of at least 1 of the top of my head.

The Allianz Arena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allianz_Arena
http://www.allianz-arena.de/en/

That's not really true, AFAIK. The public voted on the new stadium in 2002 and it broke ground in the same year.

 

[mojito]

That's not really true, AFAIK. The public voted on the new stadium in 2002 and it broke ground in the same year.

Germans won the 06 bid in 2000, so McCrann might be on the money here.

 

[Dimenhydrinate]

Germans won the 06 bid in 2000, so McCrann might be on the money here.

But it was put to a public vote. You can't say that it was built for the WC if they didn't even know if the public would allow it.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Just out of interest when was the last time there wasn't a major sporting event whose venues were built ahead of or on schedule?

Lets look at the Olympics and World Cups as they are decent sized ones.
Off the top of my head

1980 Moscow - communist had that down pat
1984 LA - Yanks had no problems, they used lots of existing infrastructure
1988 Seoul - Koreans didn't have any major dramas
1992 Barcelona - were pretty much on schedule couple of small stadiums a bit behind
1996 Atlanta - no problems. Transport, traffic jams and bus drivers getting lost were their problems.
2000 Sydney - no dramas. The main stadium finished on time, on budget, in March 1999 for Sept 2000 Olympics
2004 Athens - Greeks were slack and cut it fine
2008 Beijing - no problems most were finished months before the games. There were some big cost cutting to the Bird Nest stadium, they reduced the amount of steel used by 1/3rd as steel prices went thru the roof, but delivered on schedule.

1990 Italy - no dramas with stadiums being ready on schedule
1994 USA - all stadiums were ready a year or two before WC
1998 France - an outstanding tournament all stadiums ready well before WC
2002 Japan/Korea - all upgrades and new stadiums ready on time
2006 Germany - Usual German efficiency had stadiums ready on schedule.

 

[McCrann]

Lets look at the Olympics and World Cups as they are decent sized ones.
Off the top of my head

1980 Moscow - communist had that down pat
1984 LA - Yanks had no problems, they used lots of existing infrastructure
1988 Seoul - Koreans didn't have any major dramas
1992 Barcelona - were pretty much on schedule couple of small stadiums a bit behind
1996 Atlanta - no problems. Transport, traffic jams and bus drivers getting lost were their problems.
2000 Sydney - no dramas. The main stadium finished on time, on budget, in March 1999 for Sept 2000 Olympics
2004 Athens - Greeks were slack and cut it fine
2008 Beijing - no problems most were finished months before the games. There were some big cost cutting to the Bird Nest stadium, they reduced the amount of steel used by 1/3rd as steel prices went thru the roof, but delivered on schedule.

1990 Italy - no dramas with stadiums being ready on schedule
1994 USA - all stadiums were ready a year or two before WC
1998 France - an outstanding tournament all stadiums ready well before WC
2002 Japan/Korea - all upgrades and new stadiums ready on time
2006 Germany - Usual German efficiency had stadiums ready on schedule.

Just looking at the World Cup hosts a little more closely - which of those countries is closest in size to Australia?

It would be Korea - a country of 50 million - and they only hosted half the World Cup (which would make them a country of 100 million for comparative purposes).

Next smallest is Italy - about 60 million.

There is no doubt Australia is less than half the size of either of these countries - and our population density and spread is far far far far greater than either.

Its hard to see how it can be justified on an economic basis. We're set for a lot of white elephants if this gets up.

 

[BobbyMorri]

I think GDP is a more correct level to see how big a country's economic level.Iin that, we are the same as Korea, roughly. (depends on what exchange rate you use PPP, or nominal)

but Korea basically hosted it anyway, they built enough stadiums to host it on thier own. Japan did the same thing. Which is why co-hosts, who are enemies, just dont work; they want to out do each other or fight.

 

[mojito]

Looking at figures on wiki, given by the IMF, our nominal GDP is $USD 1,013,461 million compared to S.Korea at $929,124 million.

Per capita, we far outrank them. By my research, nominal GDP per Capita in Aus is $41,982 US while in S.Korea, it is $16,450. Remember though, they outweigh us on population by 2:1, so a claim like;

There is no doubt Australia is less than half the size of either of these countries - and our population density and spread is far far far far greater than either.

Is false, at least in regards to density.