Do the equalisation methods need tweaking?

[Pessimistic]

Notice how no one has lost as many players to free agency as Hawthorn?
Lost
Franklin
Suckling
Ellis
Young
Murphy

Gained
Frawley
who Melbourne were over compensated for.

Hawks winning premierships and losing free agency.

Ellis so compo yet played a gf in 2015. Worse players being paid less than him retunedcompo

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Again, clubs and their administrations have a much greater influence on whether they can rise up the ladder than anything GWS or GC have done by entering the competition.

I'm.not disputing a good admin is paramount however I'm saying there are a multitude of factors of which that is just one. It would be great if you could point to one thing and say "fix this and you'll fix everything" but reality is far more complex than that.

I'm not saying the expansion drafts were THE reason for clubs finding it harder I'm saying it is A reason. And the main point in raising the expansion drafts was that FA came in at the same time so teams who were down the bottom got hit with a double whammy. That's not the only factor but it's a pretty big contributor.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Carlton got three pps and pick 1 three years in a row in those years. Run your assesment over carltons good fortune

We got pp in 2004 because all our kpps broke down or wanted out. We almost scored a grand final n 2001 but it mant nothing because hay, holland, barker broke down never to return and rawlings and thompson wanted out

Carlton's bad drafting and trading didnt allow them to take advantage of The AFL equalisation policy, because as I wrote in my post that you quote "So whilst the AFL doesnt like seeing one side dominate because it thinks it comes up with these smart equalization policies, it doesnt realise that good or bad drafting over a 2 to 4 year period actually washes thru for another decade or so."

Equalisation benefits + good to great management around those benefits = long term advantage to that club which the AFL doesnt really want

Equalisation benefits + bad management around those benefits = the AFL doesnt get the club improvement their policy was supposed to achieve

Equalisation benefits +average management around those benefits = the AFL gets the sort of short term improvement it wants without the longer term benefits.

 

[cryptor]

WARNING: Nerd alert. Post may contain graphs and critical analysis.

The finishing ladder position at the end of the H&A season for the past 8 years...



Excludes Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydney and Fremantle because they weren't rebuilding in this period (either finishing off a rebuild or topping up).
Excludes GWS and Gold Coast so ladder positions can be compared year to year.
Excludes Essendon because, well... you know...

Melbourne (red line) is the only club who has failed to make finals in this period.

And Brisbane (burnt orange) have struggled a bit as well dropping back off after a small rise 2011-13.

Every club has managed at least a 6th place finish in this time except Melbourne. Exclude Brisbane, Carlton and Richmond and all these teams have made the top 4 at some point in the past 8 seasons.

That's 11 teams in total in the entire comp that have been in a realistic position going into finals of winning the flag in the past 8 seasons. Which is more than the apparent average we are meant to be striving for if every team is meant to be able to win a flag once over a 18 (formerly 16) year period.

The vast majority of teams in the competition have been able to satisfactorily rebuild over this 8 year period and some in even half that time or less (shout out to Port, Bulldogs and West Coast).

 

[Furn2]

Its ridiculous to say the Hawks won 3 in a row because of Priortity picks or trading in players or Free agancy.

Its a whole host of reasons and they've had to get almost everything right both on and off the field and have a bit of luck on the way.

Just as an example the Hawks kicked 9:13 losing a prelim by 3 in 2011 and 11:15 losing a GF by 10 in 2012.

Since then they've led the league in conversion every year. In 2014 they only scored more points than behinds twice. At one point in the GF this year they were something like 30 goals 8 from set shots for the finals series.

Now thats nothing to do with drafting or slaray caps or fixtures, thats just one team addressing a weakness that cost them alot and working on it harder than anyone else to turn it around.

People also forget that we have had 2 first round picks in 7 years and none in the top 15 and in that time have picked up or added through just the drafts Breust, Hill, Smith, Stratton, Suckling, Duyrea, Puopolo, Shiels, Hartung and Shoey. Now thats almost half a premiership team, not the best half by any stretch but thats some good drafting with some very ordinary picks.

 

[seysearles]

Do the equalisation methods need tweaking?

Definitely not!

 

[Colonial]

You've either deliberately misrepresented my position or have failed to grasp it. I don't want handouts at all, I want a fair competition where clubs are given the chance to succeed through equalisation of opportunity. I don't want to take anything off anyone else.

The academies allow equalisation of opportunity.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

They ditched priority picks because Hawthorn and Collingwood used them after a single down year to add two elite kids and go on to win flags, but Melbourne toiled away getting plenty of priority picks and haven't gotten anywhere near a finals appearance in that time.

Melbourne had before round 1 Priority Picks in 2003 (Sylvia) and 2009 (Scully) and an after round 1 pick in 2008 (Blease). That's it, not the multitude that is often made out.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

The academies allow equalisation of opportunity.

Giving some clubs an unfair advantage isn't equality; unless you believe all clubs are equal but some clubs are more equal than others.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Melbourne fans should not continually banging on about not getting enough to help their club rise up the ladder.

Who's doing that?

 

[Crankyhawk]

Melbourne had before round 1 Priority Picks in 2003 (Sylvia) and 2009 (Scully) and an after round 1 pick in 2008 (Blease). That's it, not the multitude that is often made out.

I thought jeff White was one also. Seem to remember early 2000s Melbourne would alternate good and woeful years.

 

[Colonial]

Giving some clubs an unfair advantage isn't equality; unless you believe all clubs are equal but some clubs are more equal than others.

But you just said previous that every club should have a base 0f equality to start from. The northern clubs dont have this without the academies.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

The Academies are ****ing with the game Hopper and Kennedy are two of the best midfielders in the draft and their gifted to GWS, and for what? For what? The competition is butchered so that 500 more flare waving soccer fans or jessica mauboy loving leaguers rock up to a GWS game?
Stupidity!

 

[FlowersByIrene]

But you just said previous that every club should have a base 0f equality to start from. The northern clubs dont have this without the academies.

That's a lie - the draft and salary cap means all clubs are equal. If you can't retain players or draw crowds that's entirely your own fault. Plenty of Melbourne clubs have struggled on both those fronts in the past. You work through it not expect hand outs to float you.

The academies actually make me sick thinking of the state of the game.

 

[El_Scorcho]

That's a lie - the draft and salary cap means all clubs are equal. If you can't retain players or draw crowds that's entirely your own fault. Plenty of Melbourne clubs have struggled on both those fronts in the past. You work through it not expect hand outs to float you.

The academies actually make me sick thinking of the state of the game.

Jeez you're laying it on pretty thick here.

It's undeniable that the northern clubs struggle to retain talent because of the far lower percentage of draftees and the lack of business opportunities outside of football.

Brisbane are very poorly managed, but they are at a significant disadvantage when compared to say, North, due to where they are based, even if all other things were equal.

The academy system is fine.

 

[Colonial]

That's a lie - the draft and salary cap means all clubs are equal. If you can't retain players or draw crowds that's entirely your own fault. Plenty of Melbourne clubs have struggled on both those fronts in the past. You work through it not expect hand outs to float you.

The academies actually make me sick thinking of the state of the game.

Easy to say when your state lives and breathes the game. No go home factor.

And yet they get equalisation payments?
They arent as popular as say Richmond or Collingwood yet get equal or more funding. Doesn't sound fair.

It is amusing hearing complaints from the smaller vic clubs against the bigger ones.

 

[Colonial]

The Academies are ******* with the game Hopper and Kennedy are two of the best midfielders in the draft and their gifted to GWS, and for what? For what? The competition is butchered so that 500 more flare waving soccer fans or jessica mauboy loving leaguers rock up to a GWS game?
Stupidity!

Well that was a waste of a reply.

 

[Kwality]

The Academies are ******* with the game Hopper and Kennedy are two of the best midfielders in the draft and their gifted to GWS, and for what? For what? The competition is butchered so that 500 more flare waving soccer fans or jessica mauboy loving leaguers rock up to a GWS game?
Stupidity!

You'd be OK with Silvagni ? What gives your mob any right to a free kick, stupid?

Coming off 2015 where one club was given a free ride in the fix that is the FIXture, its rich for a Blues fan to be criticising equalisation.

We need a strong national comp.

 

[Furn2]

But you just said previous that every club should have a base 0f equality to start from. The northern clubs dont have this without the academies.

Northern clubs have won way more flags and played more finals than on average than any other area. There's no evidence of any disadvantage.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Without the academies Hopper and Kennedy wouldn't even be playing footy, or at least not to such a high standard. I'd rather see them playing the game even if it is to GWS' advantage than not playing at all.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

You'd be OK with Silvagni ? What gives your mob any right to a free kick, stupid?

Coming off 2015 where one club was given a free ride in the fix that is the FIXture, its rich for a Blues fan to be criticising equalisation.

We need a strong national comp.

Comparing Father Sons to the Academies is stupid. Acadmies create multiple - gun - kids - every year. Father Sons are random little shots of history that don't have the same training and are far less common.

Theres 2 father sons(3 with Dunkley) this uear compared to around 10 academy kids. And all those Academy kids are top 20 picks compared to the father sons which will be much lower

Apples and oranges

 

[Colonial]

Northern clubs have won way more flags and played more finals than on average than any other area. There's no evidence of any disadvantage.

Both clubs had cola and other salary cap advantages to keep the players from returning home.

No evidence? Brisbane GC and Giants all beg to differ. Once cola and a drop down the ladder the swans will feel it to.

Though if we keep getting kids through the academies that means you can get the heartland kids. The ones us evil northern clubs are accused of stealing every 5 seconds. [emoji57]

 

[Colonial]

Comparing Father Sons to the Academies is stupid. Acadmies create multiple - gun - kids - every year. Father Sons are random little shots of history that don't have the same training and are far less common.

Theres 2 father sons(3 with Dunkley) this uear compared to around 10 academy kids. And all those Academy kids are top 20 picks compared to the father sons which will be much lower

Apples and oranges

Exactly

One is traditional cheating of the draft so is allowed.
The other is a newer version that doesnt, on the surface, benefit me so is wrong, illegal, immoral, and against the roots of the game. [emoji15] [emoji57]

 

[Furn2]

Both clubs had cola and other salary cap advantages to keep the players from returning home.

No evidence? Brisbane GC and Giants all beg to differ. Once cola and a drop down the ladder the swans will feel it to.

Though if we keep getting kids through the academies that means you can get the heartland kids. The ones us evil northern clubs are accused of stealing every 5 seconds. [emoji57]

GC and Gws are start up teams they are too new to judge, Brisbane have won 1/5th of the flags in the last 15 years while making up 1/16th of the competition.

That's 3 times the average, Sydney have won more than twice the average without academies, sure they had some salary advantages but hey performed way above average with those advantages.

Now they've been taken away and replaced by another.

 

[Colonial]

GC and Gws are start up teams they are too new to judge, Brisbane have won 1/5th of the flags in the last 15 years while making up 1/16th of the competition.

That's 3 times the average, Sydney have won more than twice the average without academies, sure they had some salary advantages but hey performed way above average with those advantages.

Now they've been taken away and replaced by another.

The 2 clubs i was talking about were lions and swans using cola to keep players from running home.

It is a fact the 4 Northern clubs have issues with go home factor. The academies will turn this around.

Hawthorn have just been in 4 gf's. Should they be banned from their dollar making schemes in tassie?

We are trying to broaden the junior base, the one we keep getting accused of taking all of.
If we keep taking academy kids surely that leaves the best of the traditional kids for traditional clubs.
Lets also remember that other clubs have gotten academy kids as well as the 4 northern clubs.