Do you pray?

[Former]

The arguments for and against god have been distilled into about half a dozen on each side.

The one I like goes something along the lines of:

If God exists as described by any number of religious texts, then he exists outside of our plane of existence and cannot affect us. If he exerts influence on our plane of existence he immediately puts himself into this plane and ceases to be anything more than another part of our universe, subject to the natural laws we are all subject to.

I don't pretend to know everything about the universe. I don't pretend to know if there is or is not a God.

I know there is me. All the rest is seperate and uncontrollable. Scary thought if you don't trust yourself eh?

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Generalissimo
Yes, now that Otaku and I have stopped calling each other names

it just adds a bit of fire to what can be a rehash of old arguments
not anything intended by it...merely to fire up some arguing spirit

As for the mumbo-jumbo, I do try to keep that to a minimum but sometimes I forget. Now why can't there be a Science & Philosophy forum?

damn, that could be a good forum to read. Science&Spiritulity

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Groves
The arguments for and against god have been distilled into about half a dozen on each side.

The one I like goes something along the lines of:

If God exists as described by any number of religious texts, then he exists outside of our plane of existence and cannot affect us. If he exerts influence on our plane of existence he immediately puts himself into this plane and ceases to be anything more than another part of our universe, subject to the natural laws we are all subject to.

that really kils your idea of the "unmoving mover" eh Frodo.

what we are after is a fresh view (personal view) not using previous, well known, arguments to try to score points. (well, thats what i want anyway)

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Generalissimo
You are expecting people to take your word for it when you have no proof of your ideas.
[/B]

and thus is religion born.

now, i must say, i have fallen into the trap peculiar to a scientist. we need to know...right or wrong.

The argument should actually be " He is your god. You created him. you prove him". It is not up to me to disprove him.

It is on the believer for the burden of proof. You claim to believe. Why? what makes you think that this answer is the right one? There is absolutely no proof. I could make up anything and say "It is gods way" and be correct.

The possibility exists for anything, but why do you believe this one answer is correect. Are you basing your ideas on those that you are tought? Are you just rehashing what was told to you, your parents, their parents etc?

The answer to life the universe and everything (42 for you Doglous Adams fans) is one that will always raise debate.

 

[Mr Q]

Originally posted by Generalissimo
Amusing story, but I think you mean Douglas Adams

There's a mistake I have no excuse for making....

 

[Mr Q]

Originally posted by Frodo
GOD is the unmoving mover. He is creation itself. GOD is a force we cannot understand, in fact we still can't understand the human brain, which God made, so how do we stand a chance of understanding God.
And if we did then perhaps our purpose on earth would become redundant.

This brings to mind another Douglas Adams quote:

"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced be something even more bizzare and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened."

 

[Lestat]

Otaku,

Tell me...does love exist?

If so....prove it. Can you scientifically prove that love exists??

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Lestat
Otaku,

Tell me...does love exist?

If so....prove it. Can you scientifically prove that love exists??

yes love exists.

It is a way of describing a hormonal response.

 

[ozzult]

Religion is a crock in my opinion.

I don't need any "imaginable being" to help me through life.


Praying? The day I start praying to an imaginary character in a novel is the day I institutionalise myself.

 

[Santos L Helper]

Originally posted by Lestat
Otaku,

Tell me...does love exist?

If so....prove it. Can you scientifically prove that love exists??

You'll need to do better than that. Love can be proven to exist through the bodies hormonal response to certain situations and persons.

Oh, Otaku said just that.

 

[skilts]

Originally posted by Frodo
GOD is the unmoving mover. He is creation itself. GOD is a force we cannot understand, in fact we still can't understand the human brain, which God made, so how do we stand a chance of understanding God.
And if we did then perhaps our purpose on earth would become redundant.

Remove the pre-suppositions from this statement, and it would look like this:

...mover.

...itself.

...cannot understand,

...

 

[skilts]

Santos, regardless of the the very interesting, but essentially unmeasurable in terms of ultimate effect, hormonal aspect, do you think unconditional love is possible, or is there always something selfish in it for each participant?

 

[evade28]

Originally posted by Generalissimo

"Do aliens exist"?

its probable that they would. not the 'fly down to earth and abduct people' kind, but 'alien' meaning 'from another planet' why wouldnt they? how big is the universe? as if earth would be the only planet with living things on it.

and as for the universe, just because you cant comprehend how it occured doesnt mean you have to make something up (ie god)!

 

[Santos L Helper]

Originally posted by skilts
Santos, regardless of the the very interesting, but essentially unmeasurable in terms of ultimate effect, hormonal aspect, do you think unconditional love is possible, or is there always something selfish in it for each participant?

Interesting point Skilts.

Unconditional love is a selfish human requirement for self-fullfillment. However, I don't see that as an altogether bad thing, as this is a basic human need.
To put this selfishness into my side of this argument, I would say that unconditional love for a 'higher being' reinforces the view that this being does not truly exist, but rather exists to fulfill a basic human desire that many people are unable to find through their interactions with the 'real world' and therefore need the support found in selfish desire to survive. A higher being invented to keep the masses happy and controlled?

ps Hope this makes sense.

 

[Generalissimo]

Originally posted by otaku
The argument should actually be " He is your god. You created him. you prove him". It is not up to me to disprove him.

But a reformulation of the question puts the burden of proof on you, ie. "The universe is just the result of random chance". I don't see any evidence of randomness, so you have to prove it. Otherwise I'll just keep believing the opposite.

Do you see how easy it is turning an honest debate into a quagmire of hairsplitting and pedantry that doesn't really do anything constructive?

 

[Generalissimo]

Originally posted by evade28
its probable that they would. not the 'fly down to earth and abduct people' kind, but 'alien' meaning 'from another planet' why wouldnt they? how big is the universe? as if earth would be the only planet with living things on it.

Obviously. How big is the universe? It's friggin gigantic so it's highly unlikely that there are no other life forms out there. I do think that intelligence is pretty rare though. Don't ask me why, it's just a hunch I have.

and as for the universe, just because you cant comprehend how it occured doesnt mean you have to make something up (ie god)!

If a scientist comes up with a theory that doesn't contradict any of the known facts and explains things that would be hard to explain otherwise, that scientist is not accused of "making things up".

 

[Mobbs]

On Creationism v Evolution (what's it called? Explosionism or something) ... I reckon the argument is currently impossible to resolve as both views are fundamentally flawed BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW. This means that One, both, or perhaps neither, might be correct, but we as (the information warehouse of) a species need to know more first.

We seem to have got to a point where we've established that there must always have been something. BOTH creationism and evolution theories FAIL TO FIT this assumption.

Therefore we're either wrong about BOTH theories, or we're wrong about the whole atoms and molecules ans energy transforming but always extant crap, OR there are yet MORE things out there, which we don't know, which when known, would help the rest make more sense and allow stronger argument.

Even argument's of circular repeating cycles fail to meet our grade, because of our concept of 'time'. Maybe our concept of 'time' is a whole red herring. Many scientific studies and research keep coming up with strange discoveries about time, eg 1. it could be a dimension, 2. it ain't straight, 3. there may be multiple continuums, 4. it may not actually exist, 5. it might be more material than matter! (don't ask me, I just watch a lot of TV).

So what's the point of arguing? You don't know. Either do I. We've all learnt heaps of stuff over the years, and its served us bugger-all, when you apply it to 'where did all this come from'.

 

[Mobbs]

Originally posted by otaku
yes love exists.

It is a way of describing a hormonal response.

Gawd who'd they pay and how much to go and make that up? I'm so chuffed that I never attended tertiary schooling. Got my maths and English down pat but dunno how I'll hold down a job if I can't work out a way to turn love into a scientific formula.

 

[Slax]

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer
Gawd who'd they pay and how much to go and make that up? I'm so chuffed that I never attended tertiary schooling. Got my maths and English down pat but dunno how I'll hold down a job if I can't work out a way to turn love into a scientific formula.

(x+y)*couch -alcohol= she's always right but your never wrong.

 

[Former]

Originally posted by otaku
yes love exists.

It is a way of describing a hormonal response.

Have to dig out the article I read about the "God Spot". An area of the brain that becomes more excited when discussion of god takes place.

Did a quick search and came up with this article:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/Nightline/neuro020114_spirit_feature.html

It's actually about the "meditative bliss" feeling, not the "god centre" of the brain.

Back to Google...

Here it is:


'God spot' is found in brain

by Steve Connor

Science Correspondent

LA Times, Wednesday 29 October 1997

SCIENTISTS believe they have discovered a "God module" in the brain which could be responsible for man's evolutionary instinct to believe in religion.

A study of epileptics who are known to have profoundly spiritual experiences has located a circuit of nerves in the front of the brain which appears to become electrically active when they think about God.

Full story... http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/images/new_page_2.htm

 

[Mr Q]

Originally posted by otaku
The argument should actually be " He is your god. You created him. you prove him". It is not up to me to disprove him.

It is on the believer for the burden of proof. You claim to believe. Why? what makes you think that this answer is the right one? There is absolutely no proof. I could make up anything and say "It is gods way" and be correct.

To some extent you have to actually separate out the existence of God from any particular religious view of God. For any particular religion to say "This is God's word, you will obey it," does require proof as you outline it before they can demand your obedience to their creed. However that is independent of the proof of the actual existance of a God (or unmoving mover as Frodo put it).

It is quite possible that any religion is correct, or that none is correct. However even no religion we know being correct does not preclude the existence of God. So for me as a believer to prove my religion would prove the existence of God, but if I fail in that task (as I would), would not in any way mean that there is no God; after all the fundamentalist Muslims might actually be right.

In reality the only correct religious position anyone can hold is agnosticism, not atheism; an atheistic dogma denies the existence of a deity (or for that matter deities) without evidence in the same way that religious belief avows that existence with the same level of proof.

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Generalissimo
But a reformulation of the question puts the burden of proof on you, ie. "The universe is just the result of random chance". I don't see any evidence of randomness, so you have to prove it. Otherwise I'll just keep believing the opposite.

Do you see how easy it is turning an honest debate into a quagmire of hairsplitting and pedantry that doesn't really do anything constructive?

However, we are talking about praying, not the evolution of the universe.

*boom* ball in your court

 

[otaku]

Originally posted by Mr Q
To some extent you have to actually separate out the existence of God from any particular religious view of God. For any particular religion to say "This is God's word, you will obey it," does require proof as you outline it before they can demand your obedience to their creed. However that is independent of the proof of the actual existance of a God (or unmoving mover as Frodo put it).

It is quite possible that any religion is correct, or that none is correct. However even no religion we know being correct does not preclude the existence of God. So for me as a believer to prove my religion would prove the existence of God, but if I fail in that task (as I would), would not in any way mean that there is no God; after all the fundamentalist Muslims might actually be right.

In reality the only correct religious position anyone can hold is agnosticism, not atheism; an atheistic dogma denies the existence of a deity (or for that matter deities) without evidence in the same way that religious belief avows that existence with the same level of proof.

I agree, but our knowledge of god comes through our religions.

If there was no religion, there would be no knowledge of god.
Therefore the two are uavoidably linked.

I think of it this way (some of my thoughts):

If god exists and is all powerful and all knowing:

1) would he allow people to do what they do to each other?
2) why would he want people do these things to eachother because he could stop it) unless
i) he was cruel
ii) he was insane
iii) he was bored.
3) would you want to live in a universe that is inhabited by that deity?

Another thing - is god is perfect?

if he is -
i) why is the world in the situation it is?
ii) How could he create any imperfect beings
iii) why would we be in doubt of his existence?

if he isnt -
i) wouldnt this mean that every religion is based on a fallacy? Thus putting all religions statements in a suspect light? If the "word of god" is suspect, isnt God's existance suspect?

Is god intelligent? or is it a force of nature that people have endowed with human characteristics?

All of these questions and more about god plus lpenty of inconsistancies in the teachings of religions lead me to think we have been manipulated by religion.

If god existed, would he allow this distortion of His name to continue?

This, coupled with the absolute lack of evidence of a supreme creator, leads me to my conclusions that god doesnot exist

That is about the best i can verbalise my thoughts. There are too many inconsistancies in our teachings of god to lead me to belief he exists as portrayed.

Maybe there is a huge force that created things, but if so, it isnt supernatural, but a mindless natural creative force, and thus is not interested in us.

So why pray to it?

 

[fabulousphil]

Originally posted by otaku


Maybe there is a huge force that created things, but if so, it isnt supernatural, but a mindless natural creative force, and thus is not interested in us.

Great statement, i reckon you could be on to something here.

The reason religion gives for all these atrocities that man perpertrates on man is "free will". God gives us free will to commit these and does not try to stop us.

The longer mankind walks on this earth and the more educated he/she becomes the less religion will play a significant part of our lives. Although having said that, christianity is interwoven in western society in such a huge way that most people dont realise.

You just have to ask yourself why church membership and church going has gone down while enrolment at private religious schools has gone up.

IMO because while people acknowledge the core values of religion as essentially good, they dont want to participate in stupid rituals such as palm sunday or eating the body of christ etc etc etc .

 

[fabulousphil]

On a more serious note ............ i prayed once.........Freo did not win, i did not get laid, the dishes were still dirty in the morning and my oldest stated that he was never going to move out.

THERE IS NO GOD, or if there is ...........he is one cruel mother.