Draft whispers, rumours & scuttlebut

[blueiris]

Not only is Weitering the best KPD in the draft, he'd also be the best KPF

Are you sure about that?

 

[Hellgood]

Crazy talk, has a recycled player even been taken below 50? Let alone a high second round pick?
Quick research here
A bit of quick excel filtering the above here suggests no player in the last ten years has been redrafted higher than the 50's and in the last 20 years only 2 or three players have been redrafted lower (none higher than 33, and all more than 10 years ago). Most redrafts are 4th round on (or more likely rookie, which are not listed here).
If Brown is taken at all it will be 3rd / 4th round / Rookie.


BTW I have ignored players like Ball and Jacobs who delisted themselves by refusing a contract and entered the draft.

Technically could say that Andrew Krakouer did, but Collingwood got him through the GWS mature aged pre-listing rules that were in place. Think they paid bout pick 25.

Similarly I think Tom Lee would have too. St Kilda downgraded their first pick by a few to get him (note to lazy journalists - not the same as taking him at pick 12).

Edit: And another! IIRC Steve Morris might have done too. I think Richmond used something along the lines of pick 16 as we were pretty keen, might have been more to it than that but he was rated pretty highly.

 

[blueiris]

Technically Andrew Krakouer did, but Collingwood got him through the GWS mature aged pre-listing rules that were in place. Think they paid bout pick 25.

No pretty sure it was GCS we got it off Gold Coast for Brennan

 

[TerryWallet]

No I reckon Weitering is probably the better player - at this stage at least - but Schache the more valuable as a KPF. It's a similar logic to St Kilda taking Paddy McCartin over Christian Petracca last year, Petracca was probably the better player but you only get the chance to take a gun KPF so often and you don't want to miss it. I think the Saints made the right choice and I'd make the same sort of choice if I was heading up the Blues this year.

KPFs are just so much more important to a team success - if you have a great KPD that is real weapon but you can get by without them, look at West Coast who made the grand final this year with most of their KPDs injured for example. But you do not tend to see teams achieve a good level of success without an elite KPF or two in tow - look at Fremantle who have struggled immensely because they can't find a partner/replacement for Pavlich - my view is that's a more important target for the Blues and they should get one now when they have the chance.

Good KPDs are taken all over the draft and some of the best ones have even come through the rookie draft. But there are very few elite KPFs i the league who were not first round draft selections and I think that now, while they have the option, the Blues have to take a potential elite KPF, because they might not have the chance later.

Weideman, Curnow will both be gone before pick 8 unless something drastically changes so that leaves the Blues with Harry McKay as likely the other KPF they'd consider from this draft and he is well below Schache in my view. Collins on the otherhand is definitely a downgrade from Weitering but I think is much more comparable to him than McKay is to Schache.

Even if there was no Collins/McKay thing to take into comparison I would still pick Schache if I was the Blues, but the possibility to get a quality KPD like Collins a little later in the draft certainly is a boon to that idea in my mind.

At the end of the day I think rather than asking yourself who is going to be the better player you ask who is going to help us win a flag, and Schache rather than Weitering is that player in my view.

I agree with you that you draft a KPF over a KPD most times.

But what you haven't mentioned in your post is the Captaincy potential of Weitering. That inate leadership and Captaincy potential in Weitering and Cripps is the big hope for CFC of getting itself out of a prolonged rut where strong, natural, and home grown leadership has been sorely lacking.

Weitering is a cert for No1 to Carlton FC.

 

[Love the Drake]

Because the media has a lot of Carlton fans to cater for.

So why do you think Schache is a better player than Weitering. What do you know that the experts don't know?

 

[blueiris]

I agree with you that you draft a KPF over a KPD most times.

But what you haven't mentioned in your post is the Captaincy potential of Weitering. That inate leadership and Captaincy potential in Weitering and Cripps is the big hope for CFC of getting itself out of a prolonged rut where strong, natural, and home grown leadership has been sorely lacking.

Weitering is a cert for No1 to Carlton FC.

So if Brisbane had pick 1 do you think they would have taken Wietering or Schache

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I agree with you that you draft a KPF over a KPD most times.

But what you haven't mentioned in your post is the Captaincy potential of Weitering. That inate leadership and Captaincy potential in Weitering and Cripps is the big hope for CFC of getting itself out of a prolonged rut where strong, natural, and home grown leadership has been sorely lacking.

Weitering is a cert for No1 to Carlton FC.

Well all of that...and he is by far and away, the better player. You should always pick the best player at pick 1, period. You always get in trouble when you needs select at pick 1. Weitering is the safest pick 1 in years, he is going to Carlton.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

So if Brisbane had pick 1 do you think they would have taken Wietering or Schache

If I were Brisbane I'd still have been taking Weitering, but I can see both sides there as Schache has ties to Brisbane.

 

[blueiris]

If I were Brisbane I'd still have been taking Weitering, but I can see both sides there as Schache has ties to Brisbane.

So with Hipwood and Andrews you would still take Wietering can Hipwood play well as a forward?

 

[Love the Drake]

My view is that you need a KPF and KPD. If you take the KPD first then I don't think you will find a good enough KPF in what's left of this draft and there are no guarantees on whether you'll have access to one in later drafts. If you take the KPF on the other hand I think you'll have plenty of opportunity to snag a KPD either later in this draft, or in future drafts. Quality KPFs are harder to come by than quality KPDs, you get much fewer chances to take them, so I reckon you need to take those chances when they present themselves.

I don't agree...a once in a generation KPD is as hard to find as a KPF. Schache isn't that good. Weitering is..

Take best available this year and when we finish last next year draft/buy best available KPF. Quite simple really..

 

[blueiris]

I don't agree...a once in a generation KPD is as hard to find as a KPF. Schache isn't that good. Weitering is..

Take best available this year and when we finish last next year draft/buy best available KPF. Quite simple really..

Are you seriously saying that Schache isn't any good no one has ever kicked as many goals as him in the championships can't wait to see who turns out to be the better player out of the 2

 

[TerryWallet]

So if Brisbane had pick 1 do you think they would have taken Wietering or Schache

Weitering is the better Pick and player imo.

But Brisbane also have there own particular circumstances to consider.

I imagine it would be very lineball for Brisbane. Probably happy to be No2 actually lol.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

So with Hipwood and Andrews you would still take Wietering can Hipwood play well as a forward?

I would still take the best player, that is Weitering and in my view it isn't close. That said I sort of feel Brisbane would have rather had the number 2 selection anyway

 

[rgauci]

KPFs are just so much more important to a team success - if you have a great KPD that is real weapon but you can get by without them, look at West Coast who made the grand final this year with most of their KPDs injured for example. But you do not tend to see teams achieve a good level of success without an elite KPF or two in tow - look at Fremantle who have struggled immensely because they can't find a partner/replacement for Pavlich - my view is that's a more important target for the Blues and they should get one now when they have the chance.

I don't disagree with your point. KPP forwards are hard to come by. But to say Fremantle have struggled immensely is a little bit wierd. In the last 3 years we've made a grand final, finished top 6, then been minor premiers and made a prelim. It's not a bad run. Plenty of teams with great key forwards haven't won flags. Sydney with Buddy and Tippett were destroyed by Hawthorn. Eagles lost with Kennedy and Darling.

A lot of people thought the Hawks would fall apart after losing Buddy but they actually got better. Roughead has been playing more on ball leaving their forward line with Schoenmakers and Gunston. The latter often ends up on the wing. They play Rioli as a 180cm FF at times. It works. Sometimes it's just talent not stature that gets you by. Not to mention coaching. But that's a different topic.

Everyone position on the field can play as a match winner. An amazing CHB can be just as influential as a dominant CHF.

 

[BlueJet]

Are you seriously saying that Schache isn't any good no one has ever kicked as many goals as him in the championships can't wait to see who turns out to be the better player out of the 2

It's not as though it's just a BF fad that has Weitering at number one, he's considered to be the closest thing to a definite 200 game player from this years draft.
Schache has more question marks over his game and overall temperament hence not being rated as highly, which isn't to say that he shouldn't have a good career though.

 

[Paracleet]

Technically could say that Andrew Krakouer did, but Collingwood got him through the GWS mature aged pre-listing rules that were in place. Think they paid bout pick 25.

Similarly I think Tom Lee would have too. St Kilda downgraded their first pick by a few to get him (note to lazy journalists - not the same as taking him at pick 12).

Edit: And another! IIRC Steve Morris might have done too. I think Richmond used something along the lines of pick 16 as we were pretty keen, might have been more to it than that but he was rated pretty highly.

All you could do with deal like Krakouers and Lee's is maybe try and rate them by the points system brought in for the academy stuff this year. Lee's deal I suspect would be equivalent to a very low pick (my recollection being he being for a pick downgrade from 12 to 16 I.E. not much). Krakouer + pick 25 was for a 4th 5th and 6th round selection plus Ceglar. Again I suspect that would work out to be a lowish pick. Plus Kraks had just won a Sandover and Simpson (I was at that GF; 42 touches and 4 goals including the last minute winner. The most astonishing individual performance I have ever seen in the flesh in terms of the gap between a player and everyone else on the field. Not sure people are rating Browns performance at that level.) Also wasn't Krakouer delisted, at least partly, because he was up for assault?
Morris hadn't actually played AFL when he was pre-listed then traded so N/A.

 

[TwentyNine]

I agree with you that you draft a KPF over a KPD most times.

But what you haven't mentioned in your post is the Captaincy potential of Weitering. That inate leadership and Captaincy potential in Weitering and Cripps is the big hope for CFC of getting itself out of a prolonged rut where strong, natural, and home grown leadership has been sorely lacking.

Weitering is a cert for No1 to Carlton FC.

If every player who gets talked up as a potential captain became one we would have about 50-60 captains in the AFL.

So why do you think Schache is a better player than Weitering. What do you know that the experts don't know?

I've never said that, just that the gap between them isn't as big as some posters here (all Carlton fans unsurprisingly) seem to think it is.

I don't agree...a once in a generation KPD is as hard to find as a KPF. Schache isn't that good. Weitering is..

Take best available this year and when we finish last next year draft/buy best available KPF. Quite simple really..

And what proof do we have that Weitering is "once in a generation"? Honestly, it's this kind of messiah complex that has Carlton where it is.

If you are already planning to finish last again next year it's safe to say that the way you view football and the way I view football are significantly different.

I don't disagree with your point. KPP forwards are hard to come by. But to say Fremantle have struggled immensely is a little bit wierd. In the last 3 years we've made a grand final, finished top 6, then been minor premiers and made a prelim. It's not a bad run. Plenty of teams with great key forwards haven't won flags. Sydney with Buddy and Tippett were destroyed by Hawthorn. Eagles lost with Kennedy and Darling.

A lot of people thought the Hawks would fall apart after losing Buddy but they actually got better. Roughead has been playing more on ball leaving their forward line with Schoenmakers and Gunston. The latter often ends up on the wing. They play Rioli as a 180cm FF at times. It works. Sometimes it's just talent not stature that gets you by. Not to mention coaching. But that's a different topic.

Everyone position on the field can play as a match winner. An amazing CHB can be just as influential as a dominant CHF.

Probably not the best choice of words on my part, sorry. I think it's fair to say though that Fremantle have gone below their potential in recent years though simply because they have one of the worst forward lines in the league, speaking in terms of tall players (Ballantyne and Walters are elite of course). Having a number of quality tall targets is important to how pretty much every team plays footy and Freo are no different.

Any player can be a match-winner on the day, absolutely, but there's a reason clubs go harder for key forwards than they do other types. It's not just about them being able to win you a match through their own performance, but their ability to bring other forwards into the game through making a contest, bringing the ball to ground, drawing a defender etc. Even if they're not winning the Coleman medal, they're the lynchpin of an elite forward line.

 

[TerryWallet]

If every player who gets talked up as a potential captain became one we would have about 50-60 captains in the AFL.



I've never said that, just that the gap between them isn't as big as some posters here (all Carlton fans unsurprisingly) seem to think it is.



And what proof do we have that Weitering is "once in a generation"? Honestly, it's this kind of messiah complex that has Carlton where it is.

If you are already planning to finish last again next year it's safe to say that the way you view football and the way I view football are significantly different.



Probably not the best choice of words on my part, sorry. I think it's fair to say though that Fremantle have gone below their potential in recent years though simply because they have one of the worst forward lines in the league, speaking in terms of tall players (Ballantyne and Walters are elite of course). Having a number of quality tall targets is important to how pretty much every team plays footy and Freo are no different.

Any player can be a match-winner on the day, absolutely, but there's a reason clubs go harder for key forwards than they do other types. It's not just about them being able to win you a match through their own performance, but their ability to bring other forwards into the game through making a contest, bringing the ball to ground, drawing a defender etc. Even if they're not winning the Coleman medal, they're the lynchpin of an elite forward line.

Well, those replies make it pretty obvious that you just want to be a contrarian and knock Weitering because everyone is locking him into No1(not just Carlton fans).

Enjoy.

 

[TwentyNine]

Well, those replies make it pretty obvious that you just want to be a contrarian and knock Weitering because everyone is locking him into No1(not just Carlton fans).

Enjoy.

Yes, obviously anyone capable of forming their own opinion is an idiot. Thank you. I'm sure that if Carlton were taking Schache you'd be outraged they weren't taking Weitering, instead of just blindly assuming that whatever your club is doing is 100% correct beyond all debate because it's your club.

What an immense waste of time this has been.

 

[TerryWallet]

Yes, obviously anyone capable of forming their own opinion is an idiot. Thank you. I'm sure that if Carlton were taking Schache you'd be outraged they weren't taking Weitering, instead of just blindly assuming that whatever your club is doing is 100% correct beyond all debate because it's your club.

What an immense waste of time this has been.

Why yes i would. As would nearly everyone. For a very good reason.

Enjoy.

 

[Cleric]

Genuinely curious to why you think Carlton should take Schache ahead of Weitering. Is it because Schache is purely the better player or is it because Schache + Collins > Weitering + McKey?

Andrew Mckay was on AA about the Menzel trade and this issue was brought up. Because Carlton had traded in a number of KPDs, they lack a KPF far more than backs at the moment and so is it possible for Carlton to take Schache instead of Weitering on a needs basis, and he replied that it was a posibility they were looking at.

 

[rgauci]

If every player who gets talked up as a potential captain became one we would have about 50-60 captains in the AFL.



I've never said that, just that the gap between them isn't as big as some posters here (all Carlton fans unsurprisingly) seem to think it is.



And what proof do we have that Weitering is "once in a generation"? Honestly, it's this kind of messiah complex that has Carlton where it is.

If you are already planning to finish last again next year it's safe to say that the way you view football and the way I view football are significantly different.



Probably not the best choice of words on my part, sorry. I think it's fair to say though that Fremantle have gone below their potential in recent years though simply because they have one of the worst forward lines in the league, speaking in terms of tall players (Ballantyne and Walters are elite of course). Having a number of quality tall targets is important to how pretty much every team plays footy and Freo are no different.

Any player can be a match-winner on the day, absolutely, but there's a reason clubs go harder for key forwards than they do other types. It's not just about them being able to win you a match through their own performance, but their ability to bring other forwards into the game through making a contest, bringing the ball to ground, drawing a defender etc. Even if they're not winning the Coleman medal, they're the lynchpin of an elite forward line.

The truth is you don't get by with shit in any position. Key forwards, key backs, rucks, midfield, small forwards, rebounding defenders. Nowhere. The reality is the Eagles had McGovern and Schofield as key backs after Mitch Brown and McKenzie went down. They are better than some teams first choice key defenders.

A key forward who's bringing the ball to ground but not up there in the Coleman could be considered a role player. Schoenmakers brings the ball to ground.

Fremantle key weakness is tall forwards. The Eagles could have done with a better midfield and rebounding defenders against the Hawks in the GF. Sydney's backline is fragile. Richmond could do with more size in the middle. North more pace.

All facets of the game are equally as important and all teams have fallen short of the Hawks the last 3 years.

You pick best available making sure all components are addressed without having a glaring weakness. As bad as our tall forwards are, our list has managed to paper over it with clever smalls and a dominant midfield. We've got a few youngsters which I think will surprise a few in the coming years. They won't be stars but they can be role players.

 

[BPikkers]

If Brisbane has 1st pick they would take schacke because there is not much between the 2 and more importantly he has always wanted to play for the Lions. They need a forward and he has proven himself as a forward at underage level.

Fact is they will both have long careers for their clubs. Will they end up being the best and second best players in the draft? Well history tells us 'no'. But It is a good bet the first 2 picks in a draft will have long careers.

And being KPP they simply have to be good solid players to be a success.

 

[Love the Drake]

If every player who gets talked up as a potential captain became one we would have about 50-60 captains in the AFL.



I've never said that, just that the gap between them isn't as big as some posters here (all Carlton fans unsurprisingly) seem to think it is.



And what proof do we have that Weitering is "once in a generation"? Honestly, it's this kind of messiah complex that has Carlton where it is.

Who is saying he is the messiah? He is a 17 year old with a huge amount of potential who has the makings of a great player (skill, tenacity, leadership, reading of the play etc). Someone you can build a team around in years to come. He is the best kid in the draft so we take him.

If you are already planning to finish last again next year it's safe to say that the way you view football and the way I view football are significantly different.

There you go again, twisting words. To say I/we PLAN to finish last is extremely ignorant. We have had a huge cleanout (15 players) and replaced experienced quality players with a bunch of no-names and kids. The likelihood is that we will finish last. The hope is that Bolton can develop our kids quickly and teach them a relevant game plan so that in 2-3 years time we are competitive. Even a footy novice would know Carlton will finish bottom 3 next year, so you plan for that (ie long term drafting strategies).

Probably not the best choice of words on my part, sorry. I think it's fair to say though that Fremantle have gone below their potential in recent years though simply because they have one of the worst forward lines in the league, speaking in terms of tall players (Ballantyne and Walters are elite of course). Having a number of quality tall targets is important to how pretty much every team plays footy and Freo are no different.

Any player can be a match-winner on the day, absolutely, but there's a reason clubs go harder for key forwards than they do other types. It's not just about them being able to win you a match through their own performance, but their ability to bring other forwards into the game through making a contest, bringing the ball to ground, drawing a defender etc. Even if they're not winning the Coleman medal, they're the lynchpin of an elite forward line.

.

Again, your view that Carlton take the second best player (Schache) in the hope of landing an ok KPD at 8 is naive and a reason why you, like all of us, are merely BF posters, not recruiters.

 

[Love the Drake]

Are you seriously saying that Schache isn't any good no one has ever kicked as many goals as him in the championships can't wait to see who turns out to be the better player out of the 2

No not saying that. Definitely think Schache will be a very good player; probably a gun. What I am saying is that Weitering is deemed the better player because of his temperament and leadership qualities. Weitering and Schache are clearly 1,2 this year as they are top quality KPPs so both clubs will be happy. I hope they both end up 200+ players.