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Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 16, 2013
6,532
4,461
AFL Club
Collingwood
He’s a nice player, but I’m not sure he’s going to be more than that. For me if he’s to reach the standard that many see in him on here he needs to step up to the level Bolton did in 2020. He was as far off that on Friday night as Grundy was his 18-19 form. Perhaps it was the role (he’s not a small forward), but he needs to lift and should be as under the pump as Sier, IMO.
I respect your response.
However I always liked daicos and last year was a breakout year.

Now teams focussing on him more especially with 3 best 22 departed

May be a case of 1 step back for 2 steps forward.

Hopefully

Btw he was atrocious Fri nte
 

Albert Parker

All Australian
Aug 17, 2018
746
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Not sure how you can criticise Hine for Stephenson or Phillips. His job is talent ID and he nailed those two, not his fault that the club (Guy) mismanaged the cap so badly for the past few years that they had to be traded for peanuts. And he netted us DeGoey and Crisp for Beams. The cost to bring Beams back also lands on Guy. Lastly, Daicos was selected in the open draft, so whilst he is a FS player, he was selected in the same way Phillips was, in that everyone else passed on him, so it’s unfair to say Hine’s talent ID had no bearing there.
I think Guy has been a pawn in all of this.

Beams selection was already agreed to with the player, Bucks had been smoothed over by Steele and Guy then had to execute the trade. But you can't expect Guy to walk in the door and tell Ed, sorry Lions wanted too much for Beams so we walked away. We still got Quaynor and Kelly which is what our hand would have netted. Quaynor (13) went before the pick we traded to the Lions (about 18).

I think he's been told to keep the list together too. But the collective hierarchy will have decided to offer Grundy 7 years at $900k or whatever was settled.

Guy also inherited about 27 players coming off contract at the end of the following year. Part of the reason why List Management was taken off Hine. He then began to stretch out contracts for longer terms on lower dollars so that we didn't have half the list coming due at the same time. Steele, Adams, Treloar.

I think Hine has done a more than reasonable job with the picks he has had to play with. Scharenberg and Freeman were bloody unfortunate for top 10 picks to get such debilitating injuries. Both he and Rendell said they learned a lesson having passed over Cripps though by acknowledging that aerobic capacity could be slowly built (although Cripps still looks gassed at the end of games - witness his fade out in Rd 1). Selective to look over the recruitment of Grundy, Stephenson, Steele, DeGoey, Moore with top 20 picks. There is a correlation there between picks and quality of player.
 

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PonsfordMagpie

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 3, 2013
7,281
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I think Guy has been a pawn in all of this.
Guy doesn't impress me, but I agree he's been convenient scapegoat for the failings of our list management and salary cap.

The problems with the salary cap appear to have started when Gubby Allan returned to the club in 2016 and we signed Wells and Mayne on ridiculous deals. It's easy to forget we did a lot of trading in 2013-2016, and our trading since 2017 has been largely minimal with the exception of Beams.
 

Apex36

Hall of Famer
Mar 26, 2014
31,661
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I think Guy has been a pawn in all of this.

Beams selection was already agreed to with the player, Bucks had been smoothed over by Steele and Guy then had to execute the trade. But you can't expect Guy to walk in the door and tell Ed, sorry Lions wanted too much for Beams so we walked away. We still got Quaynor and Kelly which is what our hand would have netted. Quaynor (13) went before the pick we traded to the Lions (about 18).
BS. Of course you can expect him to do that, he’s the list manager. It’s his job to manage our TPP and draft collateral responsibly. And don’t give me that rubbish about what our hand would have netted, we could easily have traded our first rounder for a future first to avoid it being swallowed up by Quaynor.
I think he's been told to keep the list together too. But the collective hierarchy will have decided to offer Grundy 7 years at $900k or whatever was settled.
Guy and Walsh are responsible for that deal. One of them is now gone.
Guy also inherited about 27 players coming off contract at the end of the following year. Part of the reason why List Management was taken off Hine. He then began to stretch out contracts for longer terms on lower dollars so that we didn't have half the list coming due at the same time. Steele, Adams, Treloar.
He had the opportunity to play hard ball with Phillips but he instead gave him an inflated contract and then tried to get rid of him in the pace of a few months. He re-negotiated Stephensons contract to ridiculous levels after he won the RS. If he’d handled those two contracts responsibly we likely wouldn’t be in the position we are now, watching 3 best 22 players run around in different colours for fu** all return.
I think Hine has done a more than reasonable job with the picks he has had to play with. Scharenberg and Freeman were bloody unfortunate for top 10 picks to get such debilitating injuries. Both he and Rendell said they learned a lesson having passed over Cripps though by acknowledging that aerobic capacity could be slowly built (although Cripps still looks gassed at the end of games - witness his fade out in Rd 1). Selective to look over the recruitment of Grundy, Stephenson, Steele, DeGoey, Moore with top 20 picks. There is a correlation there between picks and quality of player.
I don’t, and have never had an issue with Hines talent ID. I still believe he’s one of the better recruiters in the league.
 

Quicky

Brownlow Medallist
May 27, 2008
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He’s a nice player, but I’m not sure he’s going to be more than that. For me if he’s to reach the standard that many see in him on here he needs to step up to the level Bolton did in 2020. He was as far off that on Friday night as Grundy was his 18-19 form. Perhaps it was the role (he’s not a small forward), but he needs to lift and should be as under the pump as Sier, IMO.
I think we found Daicos best role last year on the wing. I don't know why we'd mess with it.
 

sr36

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 20, 2009
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I don’t, and have never had an issue with Hines talent ID. I still believe he’s one of the better recruiters in the league.
He was very successful early, but over the past decade his hits have been few and far between.

Outside of father sons/academy, we've hit with:

Langers, Maynard, Phillips, JDG, Mihocek, Stepho, Grundy, probably Noble. I may have missed one or two. But that's a pretty poor rate.
 

sr36

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 20, 2009
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I think we found Daicos best role last year on the wing. I don't know why we'd mess with it.
I agree with you totally, but...

The wing is where we like to play our NQR players - the blokes they like but who aren't good enough for other positions. Daicos progressed beyond NQR last year. Copped a tag and struggled, probably would have occured if he was on the wing too.
 

Quicky

Brownlow Medallist
May 27, 2008
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I agree with you totally, but...

The wing is where we like to play our NQR players - the blokes they like but who aren't good enough for other positions. Daicos progressed beyond NQR last year. Copped a tag and struggled, probably would have occured if he was on the wing too.
That's not a great reason not to play Daicos on a wing.
 

sr36

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 20, 2009
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That's not a great reason not to play Daicos on a wing.
I agree. But the way we set up with the wings keeping their spacing, it's a structural spot where you get some easy kicks. It's the easiest role in the team - we haven't got enough blokes to play the more difficult roles - if Daicos can - it'll be a bonus and worth finding out.
 

Albert Parker

All Australian
Aug 17, 2018
746
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I agree. But the way we set up with the wings keeping their spacing, it's a structural spot where you get some easy kicks. It's the easiest role in the team - we haven't got enough blokes to play the more difficult roles - if Daicos can - it'll be a bonus and worth finding out.
Didn't work so well moving Phillips away from it last year.
Not a good start moving Daicos away from it on Friday
 

sr36

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 20, 2009
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Didn't work so well moving Phillips away from it last year.
Not a good start moving Daicos away from it on Friday
He was tagged. Reality is he doesn't have the pace strength or endurance to deal with a tag, regardless of where he's playing. Bucks should have moved Daicos to the wing when he saw what was happening.

The biggest issue with his game was defensively. Daniel was always close enough to stop Daicos contributing, but then when they had the ball Daniel kept getting it without Daicos in screen. How does that happen? Must have been a massive difference in work rate.
 

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Apex36

Hall of Famer
Mar 26, 2014
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He was very successful early, but over the past decade his hits have been few and far between.

Outside of father sons/academy, we've hit with:

Langers, Maynard, Phillips, JDG, Mihocek, Stepho, Grundy, probably Noble. I may have missed one or two. But that's a pretty poor rate.
It’s really not all that bad when you take in to account what picks he’s had to work with. Probably best to wait and see how the 2019/20 crop develop before making such declarations. I get the feeling that there’s going to be some very good players come out of the 2020 draft in particular. I’m super excited about Macrae and McMahon.
 

sr36

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 20, 2009
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It’s really not all that bad when you take in to account what picks he’s had to work with. Probably best to wait and see how the 2019/20 crop develop before making such declarations. I get the feeling that there’s going to be some very good players come out of the 2020 draft in particular. I’m super excited about Macrae and McMahon.
I'm looking at 2012-2018. Too early for the last two drafts. Off the top of my head, fromm 2012-2018 he had pick 5,6,6,10,18,19,20 - a fair few in the 30s and a million late picks. He hasn't had a bad draft hand. It's a low number of hits. Basically I like him, but I think the criteria we've used is wrong.

With those late picks he's had it the wrong way around. He's gone for good solid players who aren't all that athletic with his non talls - the result has been a lot of decent players who are not athletic enough - we should try him on the wing type of players. With the talls, he's gone for athletes who can't compete. Switch up the criteria Dekka. He may have already. I like that Chugg and McCreedy sound like they weren't that well performed but athletically very strong. Those are the guys who can play a role.
 
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loki04

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 29, 2005
25,253
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Adelaide
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Collingwood
We had luck go our way for once in dealing for Freeman with St Kilda. (As you have already said!)
It went our way in terms getting something for a player who didn't progress.
But had Freeman gone on with it at the Saints we really got sweet fa for a pick 10. He overstated the compensation it was only a 2nd and pick shuffle 68 down to 63.

As Sr36 said then used as 1 of the 2 seconds we dropped on Aish.
 

Gone Critical

Moderator
Mar 11, 2007
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That's not a great reason not to play Daicos on a wing.
Agree but of all our current issues Daics isn't one. He didnt have a great game Friday but he is still green. I like him on a wing and would leave him there but ultimately it may come down to needing someone to step into a more central role.

The biggest issue on these boards and maybe beyond is expectation. He is travelling to be a good AFL player but has a way to go if he is going to project beyond that. He is getting talked up too much. He may be our best young mid currently but i would guess almost every AFL list would have a better young mid on it. That is our problem and unless some of the unknown youngsters on our list project highly we are looking at a subpar midfield in a couple of seasons

Look at the Dogs. Bailey Smith. 2 years younger and projects to A grade without doubt
Carlton Walsh
Bris McCluggage
GC Many
etc etc

Daics isnt our issue but he is probably only a relatively small part of the solution.
 

jackcass

Premium Gold
Oct 8, 2007
22,955
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Collingwood
Is it time to review Hine's position? These are our picks since our strong 2014 draft:

2015:
Pick 32 - Brayden Sier
Pick 58 - Tom Phillips (good pick but traded for pick 60+ 5 years later)
Pick 63 - Rupert Wills (delisted)
Pick 65 - Ben Crocker (delisted)

2016:
Pick 30 - Sam McClarty (delisted)
Pick 35 - Callum Brown
Pick 50 - Kayle Kirby (retired)
Pick 57 - Josh Daicos (good pick but gift wrapped to us)

2017:
Pick 6 - Jaidyn Stephenson (traded for a second rounder a few years later)
Pick 39 - Nathan Murphy (Has played 2 games so far)
Pick 57 - Tyler Brown (another gift wrapped player)

2018:
Pick 13 - Isaac Quaynor (gift)
Pick 29 - Will Kelly (gift)
Pick 77 - Atu Bosenavulagi (traded out as steak knives)

2019:
Pick 40 - Jay Rantall (hasn't played yet)
Pick 45 - Trent Bianco (hasn't played yet)
Pick 55 - Trey Ruscoe (has played a few games)

It's obviously even worse if you factor in the trading out of firsts for Beams + Treloar
I can never understand why people discount the FS and academy types. The club still has to make a call on them. We've passed on our fair share.

I also think it's a little short sighted to cite the players we've drafted without looking at the context of the draft and who else was available.

In 2015 for instance, there wasn't a lot of Quality taken after Sier. Hardwick, Menegola, Broad and Phillips the exceptions in the ND. Papley, Tippa and Chol in the RD. It was a pretty thin draft year.

In 2016, there were a few talls after McLarty. Battle, Larkey, and Lewis now showing the most. Henry, Ladhams, Ronke and Zurhaar from the RD. Another pretty thin years. And we were unlucky with Kirby, he was looking very exciting.

I still think 2017 and beyond is too early to call IMHO. We also got Checkers in the RD in 2017.

Overall though, I think our drafting over that period has been as good as any team. It's the strategy that's been the issue. Trading out early picks and clogging our rookie system with injured players and guys on the last year of their contracts. Much of that occurred under Hine when he had the Guy position as well as talent identification and the draft. I think since the appointment of Guy we've largely turned that around, despite him having to resolve some inherited issues and undertake trades as directed by the FD.
 

jackcass

Premium Gold
Oct 8, 2007
22,955
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Bendigo
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Collingwood
I’d say I agree, however, it was reported during the week that he had inherited the salary cap issues and then was stuck executing what the club wanted. I still wonder what happened with Matt Rendell. Was he moved on because his opinions were too different in terms of list management?
At least Graham Wright has had experience in lost management/recruitment. So I wouldn’t be surprised if he makes changes after assessing what’s happened over the years.
Rendell was simply a victim of the FD budget cuts.
 

barrackers

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 4, 2016
8,438
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think Hine has done a more than reasonable job with the picks he has had to play with. Scharenberg and Freeman were bloody unfortunate for top 10 picks to get such debilitating injuries. Both he and Rendell said they learned a lesson having passed over Cripps though by acknowledging that aerobic capacity could be slowly built (although Cripps still looks gassed at the end of games - witness his fade out in Rd 1). Selective to look over the recruitment of Grundy, Stephenson, Steele, DeGoey, Moore with top 20 picks. There is a correlation there between picks and quality of player.
Had we nailed even one of these picks the need to get Treloar and Aish diminishes significantly. While the dogs trumping us to Bont despite us moving up was out of our control there was still plenty of other talent available. Likewise had our midfield not been smashed against WC we wouldn't have had the need to bring Beams back; again the 2013 draft hurts here.
 

No SPIN

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 14, 2009
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I can never understand why people discount the FS and academy types. The club still has to make a call on them. We've passed on our fair share.

I also think it's a little short sighted to cite the players we've drafted without looking at the context of the draft and who else was available.

In 2015 for instance, there wasn't a lot of Quality taken after Sier. Hardwick, Menegola, Broad and Phillips the exceptions in the ND. Papley, Tippa and Chol in the RD. It was a pretty thin draft year.

In 2016, there were a few talls after McLarty. Battle, Larkey, and Lewis now showing the most. Henry, Ladhams, Ronke and Zurhaar from the RD. Another pretty thin years. And we were unlucky with Kirby, he was looking very exciting.

I still think 2017 and beyond is too early to call IMHO. We also got Checkers in the RD in 2017.

Overall though, I think our drafting over that period has been as good as any team. It's the strategy that's been the issue. Trading out early picks and clogging our rookie system with injured players and guys on the last year of their contracts. Much of that occurred under Hine when he had the Guy position as well as talent identification and the draft. I think since the appointment of Guy we've largely turned that around, despite him having to resolve some inherited issues and undertake trades as directed by the FD.
I think you make a good point on relativity - people criticise Hine in complete isolation without regard to results achieved by other club recruiters.
I don’t think I’ve seen any one of his critics give a serious assessment of performance in this context.
 

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