Opinion End of season opinion

[jimmy35]

Yes, and we are always inches off. That’s the problem. we are never “the best team” bar 2010 I’ve never seen us as the best team during the year. we werent last year, we werent this year, so we finished without flags. Being close is irrelevant, the best teams win.

without a key forward we aren’t winning a flag. Blind Freddy can see this as our issue. I’m just hopeful Moore and degeoy can combat their injury issues, Grundy resigns and we can get a superstar key forward end of next year after Richmond win their 3rd flag in 4 years. they are the benchmark, they are hawthorn. We aren’t good enough, yet.

2021 with a key forward we can win. 2020 I just don’t see how we make up ground. Richmond will add Rance to their list, I’m afraid they will only get better.

We’ve been the best team with dominant key forwards and still haven’t won flags. It isn’t that simple, you need to fit pieces together, it isn’t a Madden game, and keep improving and keep turning up. No good being the best side of the season you need to be the best side on the day and sadly we haven’t done that enough. Sometimes personal plays a part, injuries and luck as well. Some sides overcome that but every year there’s only 1 team that gets it spot on.
Darcy Moore in last years side and we’d be premiers without a ‘key forward’ that you speak of.

 

[mwhop]

You know, Cox may or may not get better, but the way we exploit his height could get a lot better.
(its not always about potting players)

 

[sr36]

Consider how close we've come in recent years. We lost a GF and a Prelim by a kick. Yes, we need to improve any many areas, but we're currently a very good side and only just shy.

I'd suggest we don't start radically changing the dynamics of the club unless we actually have to. You might find we do more harm than good.

But smashing stuff is a great way of relieving frustration

 

[KillerMagpies]

IMO, a winning culture needs to be created and consolidated.
Buckley, Longmuir and Harvey don’t cone from strong winning backgrounds.
We need to spend money on assistants.
Bucks stays. The above plus his buddy go. Tada Sanderson. This isn’t club football where you get your best mates to help out.
Pay whatever it takes and get SAM MITCHELL. Also, for all his dominance, Grundy needs to be taught how to play smarter. Get DEAN COX. Also, this guy nearly won the VFL Premiership against a Richmond VFL team crammed with AFL listed players. He played in multiple Hawthorn Premierships (in the 80s/90s) and was a gun coach in the SANFL. Get ANDY COLLINS. If any money is remaining and we need extra forward line intelligence, get STEVIE J!
Offload injury prone players that clog the list and are cooked ie Ben Reid. And don’t desperately buy duds like Josh Jenkins. Spend wisely and recruit wisely.
Please!

 

[docks]

We’ve been the best team with dominant key forwards and still haven’t won flags. It isn’t that simple, you need to fit pieces together, it isn’t a Madden game, and keep improving and keep turning up. No good being the best side of the season you need to be the best side on the day and sadly we haven’t done that enough. Sometimes personal plays a part, injuries and luck as well. Some sides overcome that but every year there’s only 1 team that gets it spot on.
Darcy Moore in last years side and we’d be premiers without a ‘key forward’ that you speak of.

Doesn’t this say something about our fitness staff? We heard Langdon will be back soon and then suddenly it’s surgery and out for the season, very frustrating. We have thousands to fly De Goey to Europe, why can’t our specialist fitness team prevent these things in the first place. Eddie &. co. we’re too emotionally attached to the Beams recruitment, nothing against Beams I love him, but surely due diligence finds evidence of depression/stress related issues. No, we just hand over what they ask for including a future first round pick, not ruthless enough. Buckley has no plan B, last year’s grand final he had no answers to Sidebottom, Grundy etc. being tagged.Finally, Chris Mayne has been a revelation, why wasn’t he played for his first 12 months? Because Buckley was annoyed we paid so much & left him in the VFL.

 

[Thatsmyname]

I know everyone goes on about the key forward need (so do I) but in reality sans Treloar that midfield is one paced and has to be restricting the game plan Bucks wants

When our quicks in the forwardline have taken over we look scintillating, threatening 1st quarter records that have stood for over a century, but mids win games and ours are bog slow:
Pendles
Sidey
Adams
Beams
Mayne
Sier
Wills

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

A wasted season and another season wasting the talent on the list.

 

[Countrypie]

I know everyone goes on about the key forward need (so do I) but in reality sans Treloar that midfield is one paced and has to be restricting the game plan Bucks wants

When our quicks in the forwardline have taken over we look scintillating, threatening 1st quarter records that have stood for over a century, but mids win games and ours are bog slow:
Pendles
Sidey
Adams
Beams
Mayne
Sier
Wills

I'm still having nightmares about Adams being run down by Zac Williams.
You can add Phillips to that list. IMO we need outside run more than a key forward.
There's a lot to like about Treloar playing outside on a wing, but I'd still like to trade out one of the draught horses for some real pace.

Our bottom 6 that played in the prelim wasn't flash and it certainly wasn't quick.
I think we are blessed/cursed with a lot of capable AFL standard footballers who can be plugged into the system but don't have line breaking speed.
Fix that and our forward line will have an easier time.

Phillips, Thomas, Wills, Noble,Reid, WHE

I'd be dangling 3 of those players as trade bait.

 

[sr36]

While I agree that some supporters are content with almost I am certain the club is not. I'm more than certain we keep wasting opportunities we make for ourselves.

Sure if we making the changes you state then yeah that'll make the difference, in saying that we've proven we've been good enough to win the whole comp - so I don't believe your ideas are absolutely essential.

I'd rather not make too many changes and take the opportunities that we make for ourselves.

I agree that this is the view of most of the AFL. I think I'm alone, but I'm one who would take 'consistently almost' over boom and bust seasons. For me, even if you don't quite get there, it's a good ride when you think you're a chance all the way through the year. It's a drudge when you're a bottom half of the ladder team. Despite the final disappointment, 2018 will always remain one of my favourite years of supporting the Pies.

 

[Mooresome]

I know everyone goes on about the key forward need (so do I) but in reality sans Treloar that midfield is one paced and has to be restricting the game plan Bucks wants

When our quicks in the forwardline have taken over we look scintillating, threatening 1st quarter records that have stood for over a century, but mids win games and ours are bog slow:
Pendles
Sidey
Adams
Beams
Mayne
Sier
Wills

Lol at your Avatar, i'm guessing you are heading to Richmond board .

 

[sr36]

Doesn’t this say something about our fitness staff? We heard Langdon will be back soon and then suddenly it’s surgery and out for the season, very frustrating. We have thousands to fly De Goey to Europe, why can’t our specialist fitness team prevent these things in the first place. Eddie &. co. we’re too emotionally attached to the Beams recruitment, nothing against Beams I love him, but surely due diligence finds evidence of depression/stress related issues. No, we just hand over what they ask for including a future first round pick, not ruthless enough. Buckley has no plan B, last year’s grand final he had no answers to Sidebottom, Grundy etc. being tagged.Finally, Chris Mayne has been a revelation, why wasn’t he played for his first 12 months? Because Buckley was annoyed we paid so much & left him in the VFL.

We don't actually employ surgeons - it's outsourced and we actually use the same ones as many other clubs. Maybe there is a club wide culture of attempting non-surgical recoveries, but I doubt the club's fitness staff are part of the decision making process regarding surgery or non-surgery - I'd be very surprised if its their job. In fact it would be bloody negligent if fitness trainers, physios and a GP were having significant input into surgical decisions.

 

[Thatsmyname]

Lol at your Avatar, i'm guessing you are heading to Richmond board .

So many friends to visit, I don't want anyone to feel left out

 

[LuckyLee]

I think we have an unhealthy obsession with father-son selections. Since our 1990 flag, we’ve had 14:
Brad Oborne [emoji777]
Nick Davis [emoji736]
Jason Cloke [emoji777]
Cameron Cloke [emoji777]
Travis Cloke [emoji736]
Jaxson Barham [emoji777]
Rhyce Shaw [emoji678] (better at the Swans)
Brayden Shaw [emoji777]
Heath Shaw [emoji736]
Callum Brown [emoji678]
Darcy Moore [emoji736]
Josh Daicos [emoji777]
Tyler Brown ???
Will Kelly ???

I presume Nick Daicos will be next father-son cab off the rank. Four guns (Davis, Trav, Heater & Darcy) from that list and a lot of relatively low-skill, low-impact, battlers.

There are a lot of clubs with similar pedigrees to Collingwood but none of them seem to go to the father-son well as often as we do. The other Clubs seem much more concerned with drafting the best available footballers regardless of their surnames.

It’s very rare that the child of a champion, in any sport, goes on to match (let alone exceed) the achievements of the champion parent.

Family dynasties are far too romanticised at Collingwood. We need to get much more ruthless and professional in the way we go about compiling our playing list.





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[76woodenspooners]

Ok so I’ve been hanging on to these thoughts for a while and while some may disagree and want to say I’m not a true supporter may I suggest you don’t say that and just take it as an opinion you don’t agree with.

Yeah, I agree, I don’t buy into any of the “true supporter” rubbish either.

Collingwood is a broad church. Any barrackers who are shouting for Collingwood to win are true supporters, IMO that’s the only criterion.

Thread is good food for thought, even if I do respectfully disagree with some of it

So the pies, 2 flags since 1958. Considering the amount of GF’s we’ve been in this is pathetic. Let’s put it into context the dogs and saints have won 1 in that time. They are hardly top teams.

Why pick 1958 of all years? Nobody within the club today could be reasonably held responsible or accountable for anything that has happened since that far back? Unlikely the club would even employ anybody who was alive back then.

Fair enough if you want judge Ed by what Collingwood has achieved since he took over in 1998. Or judge Buckley by what Collingwood has achieved since 2012.

... but why we haven’t demanded change and better results from our club is beyond me.

In my case ...

... I’m a product of the 70’s era, when the club had such an uncompromising attitude to winning Premierships that became totally counter-productive.

Trust me, I want to win Premierships as much as anybody else. If I could do something to win the 2019 Premiership I would, but that’s now impossible.

So on to 2020. If I thought winning the 2020 Premiership would be best achieved by bashing the club over ‘only’ making it to the 2019 Prelim, and demanding the sacking of everybody from the President to the boot studder, then I would. But I don’t.

Of course some things need to change. But the club has done some things right too. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Isn’t it appropriate to acknowledge those things that the club have been doing right? And hope they continue doing those things right?

Change is needed now, first the recruiting staff. If anyone actually thinks Derek Hine has done a good job then they are joking. One or two good plucks but the lack of key position players recently ...

The Senior coach writes the shopping list. The recruiting staff then go shopping with that shopping list. If we lack KPP’s it’s because the senior coach doesn’t think they fit within our gameplan.

Of course we would take KPP’s if we could. We made a play for Tom Lynch but were unsuccessful (Not Hine’s fault, blame the cap / list manager Ned Guy for that one).

KPF’s are crazy expensive. Who out of Grundy or DeGoey would you trade for KPF? Me neither.

... and fast players is a joke.

One of our fastest players got busted with cocaine in his system on gameday, and another got busted betting on a Collingwood game.

Second, the fitness staff, need I say more.

I’m assuming this is directed at injuries rather than fitness?

The club‘a state of injuries has been diabolical since 2012. Since then we’ve had three fitness heads (Butterfant, Davoran, White), we’ve had at least three club doctors, we’ve had three medical reviews (one by Jack Kennedy circa 2013, an external one around 2015, and the Murphy / Walsh one in 2017), we sacked strength and conditioning staff, we’ve engaged biomechanics experts, etc, etc.

I’ve got opinions about the cause of our problems (it’s not the fitness or medical staff) but let’s discuss that another time.

Lastly Eddie, time has come for a change. Eddie is all about empire building rather than club success.

I disagree with you there. I absolutely think Ed is totally about club success.

If he could have put the footy boots on and kicked that Adams poster clean through the big sticks he would have. If he could have shutdown the electricity to the ARC during our Prelim final he would have.

Did you hear him being interviewed after our VFLW girls won their Premiership? Ed was as proud as punch.

I’ve got no doubt that Ed is going to laud the achievements of our VFLW girls at the upcoming Copeland, and I hope everyone in the room gives the girls a five minute standing ovation ...

(1) Because they’ve earnt it. Penny Cula Reid’s coaching record currently stands at 26-6-1, and going by the AFLW results it’s not as if she’s inherited a gun list to work with.

(2) Hopefully the lads take note and it reinforces their hunger for success.

It’s all about him, he might think he’s doing best for the club but it’s for the Collingwood brand not the football club.

The Collingwood brand brings in sponsorship and membership dollars that help build the club. The club has committed to building a new medical centre. The feds have kicked in some money ($15 million IIRC?). The club need to match it. Where is that money going to come from?

I’m a passionate supporter and have been my whole life. If people are happy with mediocrity then follow the saints.

Just because people aren’t bashing the club for only making the Prelim, it doesn’t mean that they’re happy with mediocrity.

Let’s stop the “good job boys” and demand change from the club.

We had a review handed down at the end of 2017. We moved our CEO on and brought a new one in. We moved our Fitness head on and brought a new one in. We moved in two board members and brought in two new ones (Sizer and Licuria). We brought in a new club doctor after our old one got deregistered. We divested Walsh of his responsibility over the women’s footy program and brought in Woodlands-Thompson to take care of all our women’s sports.

And we saw the fruits of those changes ... not only did we make finals (unlike the previous four seasons) but we made a Grand Final and a Prelim ...

... and of course we would all rather they were Premierships. And of course things need to change in 2020 for that to happen. But we don’t need to change everything. Let’s acknowledge that in our quest for a Premiership in 2020 and beyond that this club isn’t 100% broken. Some of the things this club is doing are right ...it’s doing a lot of things right actually.

 

[LuckyLee]

Looking at our prelim final losing team, how many of our players would have been good enough to earn a spot in Richmond’s premiership side?

I am pretty sure that none of Reid, Mayne, Mihochek, WHE, Brown, Wills, Phillips, Aish and Noble would have made the cut (Mihochek for structural reasons, the others because of their lack of impact and hurt-factor).

Most of those named above will need to be replaced by better models if we are to win a flag.


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[queensberryrules]

Looking at our prelim final losing team, how many of our players would have been good enough to earn a spot in Richmond’s premiership side?

I am pretty sure that none of Reid, Mayne, Mihochek, WHE, Brown, Wills, Phillips, Aish and Noble would have made the cut (Mihochek for structural reasons, the others because of their lack of impact and hurt-factor).

Most of those named above will need to be replaced by better models if we are to win a flag.


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This will be a very unpopular view amongst the Eddiephiles.

Also, compare game styles.

Also, compare taciturn, low key club senior execs.



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[Pacman Carney]

This.

Long for the days we had Davis and Krak playing in '11 .. Krak was a reliable shot on goal and a great crumbing fwd in his day and Leon neon need I say more...

With Krak in mind, Pickett was a masterstroke for the Tiges yesterday.. we seem to be more conservative when it comes to potentially bringing in reformed players since Bucks has taken over the reigns (still hasn't stopped off field issues though).

Hopefully we bring in more indigenous talent in the coming year.. Varcoe has been serviceable to our club and wouldn't be surprised if he gets 1 more year.. Wells and Kirby didn't work out the way we would've liked.. Tony Armstrong as well.

We need more creative players on our list.. I agree with your sentiment - we are too vanilla at the moment.

So would you roll the dice on Harley Bennell as a delisted free agent?

 

[Pacman Carney]

They are all gun players but they do not sit in the category I am talking about. We have lacked a super quick, electric small forward who creates mayhem with their pace and skills. Eddie Betts, Cyril Rioli, Jye Bolton, Willie Rioli, Stack, Charlie Cameron.....Our boys are more lead up and mark types rather than "streaming past a pack and crumbing the pill" players. For all the skill and pace those boys you mentioned have, I don't think they apply the manic tackling pressure Cyril Rioli was renowned for. I don't know why, given the pace they have.

As for being an obsession with race, surely you are aware of the way Bruce Mcavaney and many other commentators drool over the skill of players like Cyril Rioli and openly talk about the unique magical talent so many indigenous players possess? Is this a race obsession or simply an honest acknowledgment of the skills the indigenous players bring to our game? The NBA certainly seems fixated on a particular race in their game. I wonder why that is?

Jye Bolton? Seriously? He is further away from a super quick small forward as I am.

Or is this a typo and your thinking of someone else?

 

[ThePheonix]

Yeah, I agree, I don’t buy into any of the “true supporter” rubbish either.

The Senior coach writes the shopping list. The recruiting staff then go shopping with that shopping list. If we lack KPP’s it’s because the senior coach doesn’t think they fit within our gameplan.

Of course we would take KPP’s if we could. We made a play for Tom Lynch but were unsuccessful (Not Hine’s fault, blame the cap / list manager Ned Guy for that one).

KPF’s are crazy expensive. Who out of Grundy or DeGoey would you trade for KPF? Me neither.

Hine has been at Collingwood for 15 years, it doesn't take that long to find a KPP. Just need to look at the 2016 draft, as an example of his ability to find a KPP. (that was a ridiculous pick, when you have the likes of North finding Ben Brown in the 2013 draft)

Derek Hines is overrated.

 

[greening22]

The club has never accepted almost winning

Yes it has. Otherwise it would have been far more ruthless when considering so many KPI's. Recruiting & match-day coaching are just 2 areas that come to mind over the last 5 years if not longer. Perhaps we are far too accepting of mediocrity!

 

[greening22]

IMO, a winning culture needs to be created and consolidated.
Buckley, Longmuir and Harvey don’t cone from strong winning backgrounds.
We need to spend money on assistants.
Bucks stays. The above plus his buddy go. Tada Sanderson. This isn’t club football where you get your best mates to help out.
Pay whatever it takes and get SAM MITCHELL. Also, for all his dominance, Grundy needs to be taught how to play smarter. Get DEAN COX. Also, this guy nearly won the VFL Premiership against a Richmond VFL team crammed with AFL listed players. He played in multiple Hawthorn Premierships (in the 80s/90s) and was a gun coach in the SANFL. Get ANDY COLLINS. If any money is remaining and we need extra forward line intelligence, get STEVIE J!
Offload injury prone players that clog the list and are cooked ie Ben Reid. And don’t desperately buy duds like Josh Jenkins. Spend wisely and recruit wisely.
Please!

Totally on the money! Moreover what has Robert Harvey actually achieved in terms of making our mid-fielders better over the last 5 years? Not much from what I have seen.

 

[adammania9]

I don't believe Collingwood accept mediocrity but I do believe the club are frequently content to simply be up there and give themselves a good chance of winning it all, but they never take that next step and become the cream of the crop - they give themselves a chance to win it but never put themselves in THE position to win it, if that makes sense.

A lot of people rave about 2 flags in 60 years, but what I reckon is actually more telling of Collingwood accepting too little is the fact that we've only won two McClelland Trophies since 1977, both of which came in successive years. So only once in 40 years of footy, have Collingwood with all their riches and resources put together a group that stood well above the rest. The good thing is that we did win a flag with that group (should have won more, but at least we got one). I wanna see a side that isn't just "up there" and who "can beat anybody on their day", I want them to see a feared and revered Collingwood team who every club is aspiring to knock off. As I've said, we've only seen one in 40 years.

A lot needs to go right to win premierships, but simply having the best side going around will help you a fair way.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Hine has been at Collingwood for 15 years, it doesn't take that long to find a KPP. Just need to look at the 2016 draft, as an example of his ability to find a KPP. (that was a ridiculous pick, when you have the likes of North finding Ben Brown in the 2013 draft)

Derek Hines is overrated.

18 clubs skipped the chance to recruit Ben Brown (he wasn’t even North’s first pick)

Worth also pointing out Hawthorn picked up Jonathan Ceglar in that draft, how did Hine not draft him? ... oh wait.

We also picked up Scharenberg and Freeman. Hine had no way of knowing they would become injury riddled. If he had he might have picked up Patrick Cripps or Dom Sheed instead.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I don't believe Collingwood accept mediocrity but I do believe the club are frequently content to simply be up there and give themselves a good chance of winning it all, but they never take that next step and become the cream of the crop - they give themselves a chance to win it but never put themselves in THE position to win it, if that makes sense.

A lot of people rave about 2 flags in 60 years, but what I reckon is actually more telling of Collingwood accepting too little is the fact that we've only won two McClelland Trophies since 1977, both of which came in successive years. So only once in 40 years of footy, have Collingwood with all their riches and resources put together a group that stood well above the rest. The good thing is that we did win a flag with that group (should have won more, but at least we got one). I wanna see a side that isn't just "up there" and who "can beat anybody on their day", I want them to see a feared and revered Collingwood team who every club is aspiring to knock off. As I've said, we've only seen one in 40 years.

A lot needs to go right to win premierships, but simply having the best side going around will help you a fair way.

Sure. But how does Collingwood achieve that? (When 17 other clubs are trying to do the same thing)

Factors that go into good team performance ...

(1) Recruitment
(2) Development
(3) Fitness
(4) Health, injury prevention and injury recovery
(5) Gameday team-play, tactics and strategy

Apart from (4) which we know we’ve sucked at for the last seven years (despite multiple doctors, multiple fitness heads, multiple re-organisations of the fitness department) ...

... which one(s) of those have we been behind the rest of the industry on? I’d say 99% of us punters are quick to blame (1) or (5) but the reality is that we have NFI. Why do people always blame recruitment but never development?

 

[LuckyLee]

This will be a very unpopular view amongst the Eddiephiles.

Also, compare game styles.

Also, compare taciturn, low key club senior execs.



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Yes probably unpopular but not necessarily incorrect.

I’m a big believer that virtually every player in a premiership team must have hurt-factor i.e. particular skills that can really impact the outcome of a match. Could be elite kicking skills, electrifying speed, consistent scoreboard impact, overhead marking prowess, ability to win contested ball and cleanly distribute it. Players with high hurt-factor make their direct opponents very nervous and create nightmares for opposition coaches.

IMO players like Mayne, Phillips, Brown, Wills & Aish have no hurt-factor and need to be phased out of the team.


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