Fixing the draft systems inadequacies

[Blackas87]

How would a bottom team recruit the 4 or 5 top 20 talented 18 year olds? They are struggling to keep the ones they have now.

Teams down the bottom of the ladder would have more salary cap room to offer larger contracts to players, the players have the choice if they want to go there or not. Brisbane have been losing players because they draft players that never wanted to go there, those players never chose to go to Brisbane.

 

[Determinant]

Why? The NRL and A League don't have drafts. Why does the AFL need one?

What if a bottom club like Brisbane recruited 4 or 5 of the top 20 talented 18 year olds instead of just taking 1 first round pick in the draft, it would speed up the rebuilding process. Currently if you want a few top 20 18 year olds you have to trade away best 22 players for draft picks which weakens your team.

Yet vastly more successful leagues like the NBA and NFL do, this feels like something a VFL tragic would come up with

 

[Blackas87]

Yet vastly more successful leagues like the NBA and NFL do, this feels like something a VFL tragic would come up with

More successful as in the sports have a larger following due to being a country with a larger following? VFL tragic? I grew up in the AFL era. What are you scared of?

 

[Determinant]

More successful as in the sports have a larger following due to being a country with a larger following? VFL tragic? I grew up in the AFL era. What are you scared of?

Your post quoted leagues with significantly less following, why is less good but more bad?

Scared? Not even a tiny bit, imagine if the AFL removed the draft now not that this is even remotely likely, kind of hard to think of a club more likely to thrive than those orange guys your nightmares are filled with...

 

[Blackas87]

Your post quoted leagues with significantly less following, why is less good but more bad?

Scared? Not even a tiny bit, imagine if the AFL removed the draft now not that this is even remotely likely, kind of hard to think of a club more likely to thrive than those orange guys your nightmares are filled with...

I mentioned Australian leagues as the AFL is in Australia. All the clubs in those leagues are under the same salary cap and manage to recruit players.

The draft in the NFL and NBA is not what makes those leagues successful.

 

[Dez!]

Teams down the bottom of the ladder would have more salary cap room to offer larger contracts to players, the players have the choice if they want to go there or not. Brisbane have been losing players because they draft players that never wanted to go there, those players never chose to go to Brisbane.

So your idea of "balancing" is having teams have different salary caps?

If we go with this idea then Brisbane would simply using that extra cap space to overpay players to go up there, by overpaying players you are still limiting the amount of players they could add simply because it would just cost more to attract talent.

They'd still be left relying on homegrown talent without the draft and compared to Victoria/WA/SA they don't stand a chance.

Like it or not, the draft is the way to distribute talent around the league.

 

[Blackas87]

So your idea of "balancing" is having teams have different salary caps?

If we go with this idea then Brisbane would simply using that extra cap space to overpay players to go up there, by overpaying players you are still limiting the amount of players they could add simply because it would just cost more to attract talent.

They'd still be left relying on homegrown talent without the draft and compared to Victoria/WA/SA they don't stand a chance.

Like it or not, the draft is the way to distribute talent around the league.

No the salary cap floor would be lower, teams down the bottom shouldn't be paying the same amount as teams in contention for a flag.

Of course teams like Brisbane will need home grown talent which they are already producing through their academy, they wouldn't need draft points to aquire these players that weakens their later picks in the draft.

 

[HedgeFund]

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read.

We are all dumber for having read it.

 

[Pessimistic]

Some kind of trading with points (not a moneyed transfer system=fastest way to get to EPL)

How would it work though?

Clubs could nominate five draftees of interest (some of which they would qualify for some kind of points discount) ant the draft would start out with an auction in descending order for any draftee worth two or more clubs showing interest. Straight out auction with ALL clubs allowed to bid on any player.

Clubs which have finished lower on the ladder have a very clear points advantage on those who finished top.

Once these draftees are allocated, the current draft order is adjusted to remove first and or second round picks for those clubs who have drafted, and normal draft style proceeds on remaining draftees, possibly with academy/fathers son arrangements still happening. Points are deducted from each club by predetermined draft order weighting

Points can be used for trades in trade week, and to compensate a club which has lost a player via free agency. Points can be banked from year to year (but there is a 'cap' on what can be spent in any one year, graded by finishing position) Should free up trading somewhat and give the lower teams a quicker route to competitiveness than the draft system.

Clubs would need to be realistic though, one possible problem is a desperate club with a desperate coach at the bottom could completely bugger up the clubs future much. much worse then they could now.

 

[Taylor]

The only change I'd like to see at this stage is the ability to defer picks for next season's draft.

Effectively being able to turn your picks into points and bumping up next season's. The AFL would require the points to be spread over the same number of picks but I would like to be able to burn bulk 2nd round selections into a single high first - similar to what was happening with the academy clubs trading away their firsts for more 2nds for greater points.

 

[Pessimistic]

The only change I'd like to see at this stage is the ability to defer picks for next season's draft.

Effectively being able to turn your picks into points and bumping up next season's. The AFL would require the points to be spread over the same number of picks but I would like to be able to burn bulk 2nd round selections into a single high first - similar to what was happening with the academy clubs trading .away their firsts for more 2nds for greater points.

Thats the thing with the academy thing - its available to some clubs for some players. why not all clubs and all players. the discounts would still apply.

nsw and qld teams get a few nice apples each year and the rest have been fobbed off with a rotten apple core now and again. They wont stand for it for long. Especially as GWS seems to be selecting draftees with the intention of turning them over to other clubs for more apples - and intends to draw out that system just as long as they can. Surprised the AFLPA isnt concerned.

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

Why? The NRL and A League don't have drafts. Why does the AFL need one?

What if a bottom club like Brisbane recruited 4 or 5 of the top 20 talented 18 year olds instead of just taking 1 first round pick in the draft, it would speed up the rebuilding process. Currently if you want a few top 20 18 year olds you have to trade away best 22 players for draft picks which weakens your team.

There's been a lot of animosity about Sydney having access to Heeney and Mills after top 4 finishes, also with GWS have access to multiple top 20 prospects, having no draft will snowball that dramatically.

The chances of Brisbane, or any other bottom team attracting multiple top 20 pick would be slim. The flip side would be a team like the dogs, potentially adding McCluggage, SPS, Brodie, Simpkin and English, it takes a significantly ammount of the talent available away from the lower club.

No the salary cap floor would be lower, teams down the bottom shouldn't be paying the same amount as teams in contention for a flag.

Of course teams like Brisbane will need home grown talent which they are already producing through their academy, they wouldn't need draft points to aquire these players that weakens their later picks in the draft.

Our academy has produced, 1 x First rounder (Hipwood pick 14) 3 x second rounders (Keays 24 Dawson 31 Andrews 34) a few later selections in Freeman and Allison. It just doesn't produce enough talent for us to solely rely on. Saying we save later draft pick is irrelevant, as there no such thing as a draft, any decent prospect would be aligned to a club already.

The draft isnt perfect, but offers by far the fairest way of distributing the talent.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Just scrap the draft. Lower the salary floor, and include all payments in the cap (no excuses for unexpected performance bonuses, finals, etcfactor them inside the cap).
The lesser performing teams then should have more scope to get either established players or attract the best young players through having more money to spare. And when someone breaches the cap, hit the club and any individuals hard. That includes banning administrators, players, etc for life if invovled in trying to hide payments or otherwise subvert the cap - as well as many future years of lost premiership points and reduced salary caps.


e.g.

go over the cap accidentally by $200k - three years with a cap reduction of $400k and an 8 point penalty each year

go over the cap by $200k with hidden payments - five years with a cap reduction of $1m and a 20 point penalty each year + AFL oversight of all spending + 5 year bans for players and administrators invovled (bans from all football related income, not allowed to attend professional matches, as much as legally enforceable not allowed to work for AFL accredited media, etc)

 

[HedgeFund]

Just scrap the draft. Lower the salary floor, and include all payments in the cap (no excuses for unexpected performance bonuses, finals, etcfactor them inside the cap).
The lesser performing teams then should have more scope to get either established players or attract the best young players through having more money to spare. And when someone breaches the cap, hit the club and any individuals hard. That includes banning administrators, players, etc for life if invovled in trying to hide payments or otherwise subvert the cap - as well as many future years of lost premiership points and reduced salary caps.


e.g.

go over the cap accidentally by $200k - three years with a cap reduction of $400k and an 8 point penalty each year

go over the cap by $200k with hidden payments - five years with a cap reduction of $1m and a 20 point penalty each year + AFL oversight of all spending + 5 year bans for players and administrators invovled (bans from all football related income, not allowed to attend professional matches, as much as legally enforceable not allowed to work for AFL accredited media, etc)

Scrap the draft?

In favor of what - zoned recruiting?

OR

Free for all recruiting with no limit on payments to first year players?

Just pay them heaps of cash to get them to sign in the basis of u18 form?

Wow-wee.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Scrap the draft?

In favor of what - zoned recruiting?

OR

Free for all recruiting with no limit on payments to first year players?

Just pay them heaps of cash to get them to sign in the basis of u18 form?

Wow-wee.

That one. Let the rookies be paid market value. If a club has the space under the cap, let them attract the best young players with it if they choose to go that way. There are still limits, it has to be under the cap.

 

[Savage Kent]

I'm more in the camp of not wanting to tinker with the draft too much, however in the spirit of contributing to this thread here goes.

Rather than receiving a nominal draft pick, I wouldn't mind seeing all teams allocated points. The lower the team finishes, the great number of points received. The benefits would be as follows:

- Helps to expedite trades during trade week. For instance, a particular player nominates a preferred club to be traded to. However, the nominated club may not have appealing draft picks, which can protract trade negotiations. Instead, the team trading out the player can request to receive a particular number of draft points. Rather than being pigeonholed by receiving a nominal draft pick, the points will help when it comes to bidding on the draft (which I'll get to later).
- Provides greater clarity when it comes to free agency compensation. We have seen some questionable outcomes with free agency compensation since its inception. Dees receive pick 3 for losing Frawley, while Hawks receive pick 19 for losing Buddy. Currently compensation is based on where a team finishes on the ladder. For better uniformity, compensation will fall under a points band with different criteria being applied. For example, not going into the specifics of contract terms etc, if you are a player the calibre of Fyfe, Buddy and Danger and leave as a FA with terms commensurate to their status, the original team will receive points between 2500-1500. Then the next band may be 1500-1000 points, so on and so forth.
- Helps to close the loophole that the academy teams are currently using with the bidding process. While the bidding system was introduced to make the academy clubs pay a more fair price, it has created another problem in the sense that the academy clubs have a separate form of trading currency that other clubs don't have, thus creating another competitive advantage. Not wanting to pick on particular clubs but I'll sight GWS as an example with the 2016 draft to explain my point. They were able to acquire 3 academy players touted as early first round picks while also able to draft another talented non academy player in Taranto. None of the non academy clubs have the luxury of drafting two top 5 talents in the one draft. All clubs will now have an allocation of points that they will have to manage carefully. Academy clubs will still be eligible for their percentage discounts, as well as father/son.

As for the draft itself, here would be my proposal:

What the AFL could do is have a panel come up with a consensus phantom draft. The panel would include a mixture of former list and recruiting managers, junior talent managers, journalists and a Bigfooty draft expert (hehe). For example you could have a panel consisting of Gary Buckenara, Chris Pelchen, Kevin Sheahan and Emma Quayle. Heck even throw in Knightmare. The purpose of this phantom draft would be that this would be the order that players are introduced to clubs as part of the bidding process. All players that nominate for the draft are included in the phantom draft. Once the player is introduced, there is a silent auction amongst all clubs. Clubs can elect to bid on the player if the wish to. The team that writes down the highest bid receives the player.

This would add a lot of excitement on draft night. There is a strong element of strategy involved as clubs will have to carefully manage their allocation of points. Do clubs throw all their eggs in the one basket, or spread out points? There is also the bluffing component. Interesting to see clubs work out how much to bid on a particular player.

There will be more intricacies, but this would be the proposal for the draft in a rudimentary form. Need to work out how the following year's points are factored into this draft system. I'm sure there will be some questions/potential issues that will be raised but happy to listed to them.

 

[Blackas87]

There's been a lot of animosity about Sydney having access to Heeney and Mills after top 4 finishes, also with GWS have access to multiple top 20 prospects, having no draft will snowball that dramatically.

Sydney being top 4 would be tight on the salary cap. They could only offer Mills and Heeney the minimum $65000 per year. Brisbane or another club with cap space could potentially offer these players $200000-$250000 per year plus likely more opportunity. The players still have a choice though but currently it doesn't matter if you are pick 1 or the last pick in the draft you get the minimum $65000, there is no incentive for these players to leave Sydney.

The chances of Brisbane, or any other bottom team attracting multiple top 20 pick would be slim. The flip side would be a team like the dogs, potentially adding McCluggage, SPS, Brodie, Simpkin and English, it takes a significantly ammount of the talent available away from the lower club.

Again as mentioned above, those players above would earn the minimum at a team like the bulldogs and their opportunity to play would be slim, is going to the Bulldogs the best opportunity for those players? With list sizes capped at around 40 and a salary cap teams can't stockpile all the talent in the league. The opportunity is there for a team to recruit a key forward, key defender, a couple of midfielders all in one draft. The current process to rebuild a team takes years.

Our academy has produced, 1 x First rounder (Hipwood pick 14) 3 x second rounders (Keays 24 Dawson 31 Andrews 34) a few later selections in Freeman and Allison. It just doesn't produce enough talent for us to solely rely on. Saying we save later draft pick is irrelevant, as there no such thing as a draft, any decent prospect would be aligned to a club already.

The draft isnt perfect, but offers by far the fairest way of distributing the talent.

Of course you can't solely rely on the academy, but it gives the club the incentive to build as much local talent as possible. The club can still offer contracts to players from other states.

Currently the draft gives the bottom 4 teams one first round pick, it gives the top 4 teams one first round pick, that is a slow catch up process for bottom 4 teams and only if you get those picks right.

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

Sydney being top 4 would be tight on the salary cap. They could only offer Mills and Heeney the minimum $65000 per year. Brisbane or another club with cap space could potentially offer these players $200000-$250000 per year plus likely more opportunity. The players still have a choice though but currently it doesn't matter if you are pick 1 or the last pick in the draft you get the minimum $65000, there is no incentive for these players to leave Sydney.

So the system relies on a mixture of the draft prospects greed and teams salary cap space. Having it solely dependent on salary cap to attract the prospects to lower club is a slippery slope, how long til wed'd see a multi year 700k style Rookie bust, that could really cripple a club even further.

Again as mentioned above, those players above would earn the minimum at a team like the bulldogs and their opportunity to play would be slim, is going to the Bulldogs the best opportunity for those players? With list sizes capped at around 40 and a salary cap teams can't stockpile all the talent in the league. The opportunity is there for a team to recruit a key forward, key defender, a couple of midfielders all in one draft. The current process to rebuild a team takes years.

The Salary Cap isn't a direct reflection of the talent on a list, a team like the Bulldogs would have decent cap space, has had exceptional talent identification and development recently, in their position they'd have a choice of multiple top end prospects wanting to join them.

We've also seen recently players taking significantly lower contracts to keep the club strong, players will sacrifice if it leads to them seeing success.

Of course you can't solely rely on the academy, but it gives the club the incentive to build as much local talent as possible. The club can still offer contracts to players from other states.

Currently the draft gives the bottom 4 teams one first round pick, it gives the top 4 teams one first round pick, that is a slow catch up process for bottom 4 teams and only if you get those picks right.

The incentive is already there for us to develop as much local talent as possible, atleast with the current format we're paying a fair price.

Traditionally the top end talent comes from Victoria, with the choice of 10 clubs it hard seeing too many wanting to move interstate, or any talented SA/WA/QLD/NSW wanting to go either.

All the clubs aren't on the same playing field either, other will have inherited advantages which makes them more desirable. For mine there's way too many variable in the system to distribute the talent out fairly, but still giving preference to the lower clubs.

I do agree that the rebuilding phase takes too long (both our clubs know that all too well) I think some tinkering is all that's required rather then a complete overhaul

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

I still like my "Sale of the Century" points idea. Even if no-one else does.

Clubs get Points based on ladder position (lower finish = more points).

Countdown from (say) 5000 points (4900, 4800....) until a club "bids". That bid can pick any player from the pool, their points deducted from their total, and the process continues. If two or more clubs "bid", the lowest-finishing club has first selection pick, next club can choose their player, or withdraw their bid and so on.

You could also integrate trade and if necessary, FA compensation - with a points value able to be passed from one club to another (trade), or awarded by the league (FA Comp).

 

[Lensen]

Doubtful. There have been countless players who could get more money going to teams like Brisbane, but they don't, because they want success. Free Agency basically allows players to chase a Premiership. Fyfe will get a packet wherever he plays next year. He'll probably earn close to a million if he stays at Freo, and could push higher if going to a bottomed out side like the Lions, but if he leaves, I doubt very highly that he'll go to any team that isn't in Premiership contention in the next 2-3 years.

Maybe your Dees should have a crack, could be the icing on the cake and the difference between making the 8 and being a contender for the flag.

Its why players need to be FAs after their first contract

You are right that 26+ year Olds likely to chase success more than most money, but 21 year Olds (and a bigger pool of them) could definitely be more easily tempted to go to a lower club early and ride the improvement wave

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Its why players need to be FAs after their first contract

You are right that 26+ year Olds likely to chase success more than most money, but 21 year Olds (and a bigger pool of them) could definitely be more easily tempted to go to a lower club early and ride the improvement wave

Which then exposes one of the biggest flaws in AFL - we draft players too early.

What other professional league in the world has ~30% of it's competitors not yet physically developed to even play?

Introduce the concept of clubs holding "access rights" and restrict "playing lists" to a more realistic number (30) and suddenly all clubs can field more competitive units and kids can develop more naturally.