'Forward' thinking

[TradeDraft]

I remember uncharacteristically smashing my fist on my desk when I first read that Buckley had been re-signed after the 2017 season. I'm not a physically aggressive person but seeing that absolutely cut me. My interest in the club and the way it went had never been any lower. I thought we'd wasted the best years of Pendlebury, Sidebottom and Treloar and I didn't see any true upside in many of our youngsters based on exposed form. My faith in Eddie was gone for the very first time, and I was confident that the club preferred marketing and financial success over on field success.

Fifty rounds of applause toward Buckley, Eddie, Dekka Hine, Walsh and anybody else in the back whose played a role in the revival of this club. I would be a lot younger than most on this forum so this doesn't mean as much but my interest in the club and my love for the players has never been greater. The last 12 months of following this club has been amazing.

Absolutely stoked that I was wrong about Bucks and basically everything else. Absolutely over the moon.

Same Here. I was Pissed Off that we decided to keep Bucks as at the Time I felt like we where be bottom 4 Side Easily the next year under Bucks

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

Nah. The eggs cracked, a beak is sticking out, let's blow the lid off this thing and let this mighty bird soar.

It's a double-yolker, representing the chance for our stars like Pendles, Beams, Sidey and perhaps even Reidy/Goldy to be dual premiership winners.

Exciting (and nervous) times ahead.

 

[Collingwoodity]

In those years, I don't think it was just the players who didn't get how to zone, it was the coaches too. They tried to go with a complete zone with no individual accountability, which meant that players had to be adept at covering all player types. Then to make it worse they tried to continue with that awful tactic of automatically peeling off your man to meet the ball carrier, which in terms of a zone meant peeling out of the zone and leaving a massive hole in it. For it to work, everyone would have had to instantaneously reposition. It was a tactic that was more half committed to zoning than any of the players were. I don't think a defence of Scarlett, Hodge, Enright, and three peers would have made those tactics work. It was a recipe for the disaster that ensued.

There definitely was a change from a hard zone to a soft zone.

 

[Vicky Park]

I’m happy to rip the lid off, stuff it, but probably still a bit too early to talk flags, although not too early to celebrate how good we’ve become, and how the stars might be aligning.

But.

Does anyone else have a sinking feeling about Geelong? Surely they can’t spoil another party, like they did in 2011? Why does it have to be them? Nauseating.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I’m happy to rip the lid off, stuff it, but probably still a bit too early to talk flags, although not too early to celebrate how good we’ve become, and how the stars might be aligning.

But.

Does anyone else have a sinking feeling about Geelong? Surely they can’t spoil another party, like they did in 2011? Why does it have to be them? Nauseating.

Not about Geelong, no.

It’s going to be a tough contest whatever you look at it.
We’re in the mix, that’s what’ve earned so far.
To go all the way, we’ll have to earn that too.

Long road to hoe.

 

[magpies42]

I still think that all you closet Carlton supporters have a lot to answer for.

Most disgraceful part of that period was you the fans...

 

[Jabso]

In those years, I don't think it was just the players who didn't get how to zone, it was the coaches too. They tried to go with a complete zone with no individual accountability, which meant that players had to be adept at covering all player types. Then to make it worse they tried to continue with that awful tactic of automatically peeling off your man to meet the ball carrier, which in terms of a zone meant peeling out of the zone and leaving a massive hole in it. For it to work, everyone would have had to instantaneously reposition. It was a tactic that was more half committed to zoning than any of the players were. I don't think a defence of Scarlett, Hodge, Enright, and three peers would have made those tactics work. It was a recipe for the disaster that ensued.

I think in some way we still use that tactic but we have refined it a lot. What used to happen is people caught in "no man's land" where they're not a threat to intercept the ball nor are they covering a player, a lot of players also when the time came never made the decision to within their zone pick up someone or make an attempt to intercept the ball. Some players were half committed and never made the decision to cover or intercept. Frost was one who was often caught out like that. One of our strengths is our blend of medium defenders, Langdon, Howe can take talls and Crisp is relatively tall and ok in the air. We've seen even this year sometimes we get caught out with Crisp or Maynard on a full forward/chf due to aggressive zoning. I think it's just an evolution of that style. I think more than anything the formation of the zones has changed so that not everyone was required to zone off. Rather than be a full half-ground zone formation it is now more about protecting the middle and almost "quartered" the ground rather.

 

[loki04]

Next flag? F.ck me its round 8.

Hubris.

Haven't even shown we can beat last years premiers yet.

We also seem to have a pattern of 1st quarter blitz followed by 2nd and 3rd quarters of falling asleep at the wheel to then dead heat (in terms of play) the last quarter.

Vs s**t and mediocre teams we hang on to the lead but vs WC and ilk we open the door for losing from a winning start.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I put a thread up on the main board pre last season, that the club backed the list they had to be flag team. With almost zero list changes from 17 to 18 the development finally bared fruit.

It was probably a tap on the shoulder and a word in the ear of Nathan that saw change. On face value it seemed he was a little inflexible and tried to do all the line coaching and gave little to his line coaches in freedom to do their job. Once he placed "trust" in his panel the development came to pass and what was once a grunt team trying to guard space become a grunt team that suffocates it's opposition when not in possession and out transitions the opp with ball and leg speed. Swarm and spread, they also developed a "quarter back" style of offence hence the Murray appointment - now the likes of Langdon and Maynard are executing that role. Combine that with interceptors of Howe and Moore strengthened with Roughy doing Dunny's role it's a solid defensive unit.

The forwards are a scary proposition made even scarier with the game style we have, the "unpredictability" is what makes the forward mix difficult to read for the opp.

The mids while being a little disappointing so far this season has a lot more potential to deliver. Nathan mentioned that our 1st qtr was our best footy, I think there's more. There is no doubt in my mind at least that we're not "on" yet and when we do get "on", hopefully at the pointy end we find top gear our system will win it.

We don't possess the most talented list, that's WC and the Giants for mine. However the way we play is probably the most difficult to defeat as it does not rely on personnel and it allows the versatility that is the envy of the competition.

You all know I've been banging on for years that development is key, seems I was right and is testament to every AFL listed player - absolute guns every single one of them. 99% of the time they destroy the 2nd tier when omitted.

When you develop these guns and have them buy into a solid game plan, success follows.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I’m happy to rip the lid off, stuff it, but probably still a bit too early to talk flags, although not too early to celebrate how good we’ve become, and how the stars might be aligning.

But.

Does anyone else have a sinking feeling about Geelong? Surely they can’t spoil another party, like they did in 2011? Why does it have to be them? Nauseating.

Hey Vicky!, you could mount a reasonable argument that the cats are at peak as much you could argue there's more potential. What is certain we've only hit 3rd gear briefly - the potential of our system is a very real threat to the flag. Even when we lost to them we were in a position to win, it's only been us and the giants that looked likely to knock them off. I have a little more faith in our mob.

 

[Carringbush2010]

It's been a bloody epic turnaround that basically come from nowhere. If you had of told me we would make the 2018 grand final and be flag favourites in 2019 in 2017 I would have laughed at you. I thought too we were destined for years of struggling. They pulled something out of thin air considering we have had no major personnel changes, just steady development by everyone.

No we didn't pull something out of mid air, pre 2018 I was a firm believer that the list was way way off potential - if you remember the footy world lauded our young list and it's potential in future way back in 2014, and rightly so and has been proven. Something(s) were a miss.

I remembered the Buckley thread where I had numerous arguments stating it was very possible he could turn it around against those that were convinced that Nathan could not coach. Fair enough the numbers and results had weight against him.

A man with very very few peers in football knowledge is unlikely to be a poor coach career long, I could almost argue he had a light bulb moment and realized and accepted his failings.

All it took if you look at it from face value, he just needed to relax his inflexibility and place more faith in his panel. The acquisition of Longmuire, Maxy and Buddha was a masterstroke. Buckley improving his approach-ability has been the major key though to the elusive development you speak of.

 

[sirlothie]

No we didn't pull something out of mid air, pre 2018 I was a firm believer that the list was way way off potential - if you remember the footy world lauded our young list and it's potential in future way back in 2014, and rightly so and has been proven. Something(s) were a miss.

I remembered the Buckley thread where I had numerous arguments stating it was very possible he could turn it around against those that were convinced that Nathan could not coach. Fair enough the numbers and results had weight against him.

A man with very very few peers in football knowledge is unlikely to be a poor coach career long, I could almost argue he had a light bulb moment and realized and accepted his failings.

All it took if you look at it from face value, he just needed to relax his inflexibility and place more faith in his panel. The acquisition of Longmuire, Maxy and Buddha was a masterstroke. Buckley improving his approach-ability has been the major key though to the elusive development you speak of.

The moment it all changed was the moment he decided on delegating. I think he realised others had things to offer he couldn't and his message was just the cherry on top at the end of it all. Malthouse was a good delegator too. A collaborative approach always works more effectively than 1 man giving his message, no matter who it is.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The moment it all changed was the moment he decided on delegating. I think he realised others had things to offer he couldn't and his message was just the cherry on top at the end of it all. Malthouse was a good delegator too. A collaborative approach always works more effectively than 1 man giving his message, no matter who it is.

Yep spot on!

 

[Black_White]

Nah. The eggs cracked, a beak is sticking out, let's blow the lid off this thing and let this mighty bird soar.

I have a picture of the Collingwood 125 2 Magpies logo above my desk.
This morning a workmate asked if they had put on some muscle. Because we are flexing said muscles.
He’s a Carlton supporter...

 

[Black_White]

Turned out to be an inspired decision to keep Buckley, when a lot called for change. If we had of got a new coach, it would have been back to square 1 and try to implement a totally different plan and we wouldn't have had the success we have had recently. Glad we backed him in despite pressure not to and stuck to what we were trying to achieve, in hindsight you can see we are in the right hands and there was a plan all along.

Buckley only “came of age” when he/we recruited better assistants.
Make no mistake, the fact that Buckley had no apprenticeship as an assistant , ideally at another club, wasted several years.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Buckley only “came of age” when he/we recruited better assistants.
Make no mistake, the fact that Buckley had no apprenticeship as an assistant , ideally at another club, wasted several years.

Agreed on the when, but not necessarily the reason. There's no doubt in my mind at least, he relaxed his steely facade and that allowed him to give his line coaches more freedom to apply their craft and the development flowed from that.

 

[sirlothie]

Buckley only “came of age” when he/we recruited better assistants.
Make no mistake, the fact that Buckley had no apprenticeship as an assistant , ideally at another club, wasted several years.

He's one of the rare few whose playing days demanded he get a crack at it despite not having the experience. Hird and Voss are the others but they got the flick before they could come of age, luckily we foresaw Buckley turning the corner and stuck with him when easily we could have got rid of him but were there better options out there? I don't think so, noone is really banging down the door to become senior coach so unless we poached Clarkson or someone, it's better the devil you know and Buckley's track record in footy shows he is always doing everything he can to improve and you saw his progression as a player year after year as you do as a coach year after year... I think everybody knew Buckley has the footy nous to be a good coach and commands the respect of his players even in the struggling days so it was worth taking the punt of letting him create his own list and seeing it through to fruition despite the dark days and rebuild we had to do when he started out. I'll take the length of time it took to become a power again now but it's not so easy when you're still in the middle of the dark and don't know where the light is coming from and how far away it is.

 

[Black_White]

He's one of the rare few whose playing days demanded he get a crack at it despite not having the experience. Hird and Voss are the others but they got the flick before they could come of age, luckily we foresaw Buckley turning the corner and stuck with him when easily we could have got rid of him but were there better options out there? I don't think so, noone is really banging down the door to become senior coach so unless we poached Clarkson or someone, it's better the devil you know and Buckley's track record in footy shows he is always doing everything he can to improve and you saw his progression as a player year after year as you do as a coach year after year... I think everybody knew Buckley has the footy nous to be a good coach and commands the respect of his players even in the struggling days so it was worth taking the punt of letting him create his own list and seeing it through to fruition despite the dark days and rebuild we had to do when he started out. I'll take the length of time it took to become a power again now but it's not so easy when you're still in the middle of the dark and don't know where the light is coming from and how far away it is.

Buckley had the chance to go the traditional route with North Melbourne.
It forced Ed’s hand and he instituted the succession plan.
I don’t think either of Hird or Voss we’re actively chased by other clubs.
Open to be wrong. But the Collingwood/Buckley/McGuire connections have wasted a half decade.

 

[Anzacday]

As the title says it's "Forward thinking".
The former has been done to death.

 

[sirlothie]

Buckley had the chance to go the traditional route with North Melbourne.
It forced Ed’s hand and he instituted the succession plan.
I don’t think either of Hird or Voss we’re actively chased by other clubs.
Open to be wrong. But the Collingwood/Buckley/McGuire connections have wasted a half decade.

I think the bottom would have fell out of us anyway even if we kept Malthouse or got a seasoned coach it came the time to rebuild. Whether Buckley made that rebuild longer or shorter I don't know. But all's well that ends well, in the end Buckley has become a success and in the scheme of bottoming out, we are very lucky. Look at Carlton. Or Melbourne or Essendon, teams can bottom out for decades...

 

[sr36]

He's one of the rare few whose playing days demanded he get a crack at it despite not having the experience. Hird and Voss are the others but they got the flick before they could come of age

The last 3 of their kind. I think a coach getting a senior gig based on being a club champion, without having earnt his coaching dues is about as likely to be seen again as a captain coach.

 

[Black_White]

As the title says it's "Forward thinking".
The former has been done to death.

Excuse me for answering the initial post.
Which was about keeping Buckley being an inspired decision.
I’m sorry AD, but answering a post, having that post answered, responding, etc, etc, etc.
Isn’t that what discussion forums do?
Just because you don’t like where it goes doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Poster or mod?
When you have a say like this, it’s purely mod.

 

[Black_White]

I think the bottom would have fell out of us anyway even if we kept Malthouse or got a seasoned coach it came the time to rebuild. Whether Buckley made that rebuild longer or shorter I don't know. But all's well that ends well, in the end Buckley has become a success and in the scheme of bottoming out, we are very lucky. Look at Carlton. Or Melbourne or Essendon, teams can bottom out for decades...

Very possible. And believe me, I was no Malty fan. Was very vocal about wanting him gone because he was to much about himself.
But I was also vocal about Buckley not being the solution. I wanted a coach with a track record. Not an untried man without an apprenticeship.
Right now, it’s 8 years without silverware.
I suppose us not doing a Melbourne is more to do with administration over the years.
Both Carlton and Essendon cheated the system, and continue to pay for that.

 

[sirlothie]

The OP doesn't really ask a question but refers to the down times and how we handled it and I think the discussion has been on point in relation to what the OP describes, unless it's just a statement to be liked upon. The forward thinking refers to how we handled the times, not thinking forward from now, we do that in every other post.

 

[sirlothie]

Very possible. And believe me, I was no Malty fan. Was very vocal about wanting him gone because he was to much about himself.
But I was also vocal about Buckley not being the solution. I wanted a coach with a track record. Not an untried man without an apprenticeship.
Right now, it’s 8 years without silverware.

Knocking very loudly on the door though, as close to it as you could hope in 2018 and no signs of not contending again this year. I think not winning a premiership is not a failure, top 4 is a successful season, if we can hang around the mark for another 2-3-4 years from here and keep going late into September Bucks has done his job and coming home with the ultimate just relies on everything going right at the right time. Buckley to me has now bought himself 4 years to see what he can do with this generation. To get an injury struck list to the big dance and in front until pretty much the last kick was a significant accomplishment, and this year we have improved with better availability.