Strategy Gameday Tactics and Mechanisms - EXPLANATIONS

[thylacine60]

don't wanna piss in your pocket, jimster, but how did you develop such an analytical eye for the game? watching footy or some shit like that?

 

[Jabba73]

We're trying to do something relatively similar, but with strong marking players at either end to secure the football. Our biggest problem right now is guys like Levi, Lamb and O'Shea gumming up the works.

Levi isn’t the marking problem and neither is Lamb.

Our problem remains the player delivering the ball into the forward line. We do not kick to advantage or weight our kicks properly. Many kicks can only be touched by the forward at full stretch, perfectly exhibited by Murphy’s first entry into the forward line in the second half. He kicked a ball 20-25 metres to Charlie Curnow on the burst. Was floated so high that Charlie was only able to slow the kick down with his fingertips so it fell into the hands of the trailing defender for a clearance.

Fix the poor kicking and decision making from the midfield, you give any forward line a chance to be effective.

 

[Jimmae]

Levi isn’t the marking problem and neither is Lamb.

Our problem remains the player delivering the ball into the forward line. We do not kick to advantage or weight our kicks properly. Many kicks can only be touched by the forward at full stretch, perfectly exhibited by Murphy’s first entry into the forward line in the second half. He kicked a ball 20-25 metres to Charlie Curnow on the burst. Was floated so high that Charlie was only able to slow the kick down with his fingertips so it fell into the hands of the trailing defender for a clearance.

Fix the poor kicking and decision making from the midfield, you give any forward line a chance to be effective.

They're gumming up the works due to their lack of mobility in the context of the 22, not their lack of contested marking ability.

Lamb is supposed to be the high half-forward that feeds the other forwards. Do you think he is any good at it?

Is there anything wrong with the abilities of Byrne, Williamson, Lang, Murphy, SPS, Fisher, Simpson, Cuningham, Pickett, Garlett or Wright to hit their passes, or do you think the problem lies in the space afforded to them due to the inability of others to create space by pressuring the opposition with their mobility and tackling?

Lamb, Levi and O'Shea are absolutely the problem, but at least Levi is consistently effective enough to compete at AFL level.

 

[Iamcarlton]

Do you think Jack could fit this?

Imo not really more of a marking player 3rd tall type . When the ball hits the ground he works hard but nowhere near as slippery as a Bruest type .

 

[Jimmae]

don't wanna piss in your pocket, jimster, but how did you develop such an analytical eye for the game? watching footy or some shit like that?

Footy, NFL, and soccer mostly. Madden and Football Manager definitely helped.

 

[Gethelred]

You're assuming that they're going to be forced into kicking the ball long and high to the hotspot.

The point of their make up is to open up space in the forward line by overloading the midfield, creating overlap options easily once a turnover is forced and then quickly hitting the lead back into the 50.

It's a very tactical and controlled form of the flood that doesn't excessively fatigue your runners when executed properly, but it obviously requires those extra runners from the forward line.

We're trying to do something relatively similar, but with strong marking players at either end to secure the football. Our biggest problem right now is guys like Levi, Lamb and O'Shea gumming up the works.

We've also placed less emphasis on running power and relative strength in the contest than Richmond's recruiting, and are more obsessed with skills (and thus increasing time in/control of possession). In theory our setup is more flexible than Richmond's, but it's important to not drift too far away from the fundamentals of football other than kicking.

Not quite.

You're correct in that Riewoldt's role when the ball is kicked long and high into the forward line is to bring it to ground, but it's more than that. Both him and Townsend are designed to take the best and second best tall defender and to keep the ball away from them; stop them from marking, zoning off, getting involved with the match. That they receive spear passes when the opposition turns the ball over in midfield is gravy, as far as I'm concerned; you don't design a gameplan for when things are easy.

The pressure based gameplan focuses on turnovers, to create those easy entries, but the real trick Richmond have pulled is that Townsend is the only defensive tall they have in their front half. They work together to create chaos ball in the back half, and splits the in vogue zones by drawing players and creating space in dangerous spots.

It feeds into itself; player x draws the ball, pulling the best defender with them and creating space behind them for the smalls to pounce, causing a hacked kick out of the back half which goes to a pressure small, who kicks it back to player x and kicks the goal. The player has created the entry, caused the turnover, and looked dangerous so the defender has to cover them, all at once.

 

[Jimmae]

Not quite.

You're correct in that Riewoldt's role when the ball is kicked long and high into the forward line is to bring it to ground, but it's more than that. Both him and Townsend are designed to take the best and second best tall defender and to keep the ball away from them; stop them from marking, zoning off, getting involved with the match. That they receive spear passes when the opposition turns the ball over in midfield is gravy, as far as I'm concerned; you don't design a gameplan for when things are easy.

The pressure based gameplan focuses on turnovers, to create those easy entries, but the real trick Richmond have pulled is that Townsend is the only defensive tall they have in their front half. They work together to create chaos ball in the back half, and splits the in vogue zones by drawing players and creating space in dangerous spots.

It feeds into itself; player x draws the ball, pulling the best defender with them and creating space behind them for the smalls to pounce, causing a hacked kick out of the back half which goes to a pressure small, who kicks it back to player x and kicks the goal. The player has created the entry, caused the turnover, and looked dangerous so the defender has to cover them, all at once.

It goes without saying that the less mobile forwards are trying to keep defenders honest in any setup. Most teams only run the one defensive forward, so I'm not sure why that's a surprise?

What's unique about Townsend and Jack is that they have alarmingly high endurance for marking forwards, and they, along with the pseudo-mids in Richmond's forward line are just constantly working over the defensive group in the ways we have both described. So the more you try and hide some of your weaker runners in defence, the more a side like Richmond will exploit that.

Thankfully this season we only have guys like Jones and Rowe who are poor in that regard in our defensive group, with our weaker runners tending to be junior mids and in our forward group.

 

[PrinceCharles]

Levi isn’t the marking problem and neither is Lamb.

Our problem remains the player delivering the ball into the forward line. We do not kick to advantage or weight our kicks properly. Many kicks can only be touched by the forward at full stretch, perfectly exhibited by Murphy’s first entry into the forward line in the second half. He kicked a ball 20-25 metres to Charlie Curnow on the burst. Was floated so high that Charlie was only able to slow the kick down with his fingertips so it fell into the hands of the trailing defender for a clearance.

Fix the poor kicking and decision making from the midfield, you give any forward line a chance to be effective.

Hard to make an effective kick if the forward has an opponent breathing down his neck. Levi and Lamb aren't smart or quick enough to get separation, which doesn't give the kicker a clear sight on where to place their passes.

 

[Jabba73]

Hard to make an effective kick if the forward has an opponent breathing down his neck. Levi and Lamb aren't smart or quick enough to get separation, which doesn't give the kicker a clear sight on where to place their passes.

Talking about kicks missing open players, got nothing to do with the forwards. Kicks on or over their heads, or to the side the defender has been pinned on, are also nothing to do with forwards.

Leading patterns and work rate are a whole different discussion.

The kick coming into the forward line that goes to ground or directly to an opponent or on the opponents side of the forward, are all the result of the decision making and skill execution of the player with the ball.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Levi isn’t the marking problem and neither is Lamb.

Our problem remains the player delivering the ball into the forward line. We do not kick to advantage or weight our kicks properly. Many kicks can only be touched by the forward at full stretch, perfectly exhibited by Murphy’s first entry into the forward line in the second half. He kicked a ball 20-25 metres to Charlie Curnow on the burst. Was floated so high that Charlie was only able to slow the kick down with his fingertips so it fell into the hands of the trailing defender for a clearance.

Fix the poor kicking and decision making from the midfield, you give any forward line a chance to be effective.

Murphy has a beautifully weighted kick .....

 

[Blue since 72]

I think thats a debatable point these days a short mobile forwardline will most likely create more turnovers in the forward half of which theres a hell of a lot of scores from turnovers . Than say our forwardline at present .
There really isnt many contested marks taken in forwardlines .

I'll be happy to see McKay and Charlie as our two tall forwards (no need for more than two these days) with the rest being a mix of medium and smalls. Both those two are faster and more mobile than Casboult and will apply more defensive pressure. Throw in Fisher, Picket, Dow, Cunners and JSOS (effort unquestioned, acceleration... hmm) and perhaps a Pat Kerr and it will be a nice mix.

The days of the lumbering big forward are done. Really want Bolts to just throw Harry at it, he's done it with pretty much every other high pick draftee.

In fact lets start a partition.

Harry Harry.....

Apologies not really tactics

 

[Jabba73]

Murphy has a beautifully weighted kick .....

Which is why it is so frustrating when he kicks shallow entries that miss the target, leading to easy rebound goals for the opposition.

We all know he is much better than that yet it still happens too frequently.

 

[Gethelred]

I'll be happy to see McKay and Charlie as our two tall forwards (no need for more than two these days) with the rest being a mix of medium and smalls. Both those two are faster and more mobile than Casboult and will apply more defensive pressure. Throw in Fisher, Picket, Dow, Cunners and JSOS (effort unquestioned, acceleration... hmm) and perhaps a Pat Kerr and it will be a nice mix.

The days of the lumbering big forward are done. Really want Bolts to just throw Harry at it, he's done it with pretty much every other high pick draftee.

In fact lets start a partition.

Harry Harry.....

Apologies not really tactics

Except, you know, they're not...

I mean, look at the bags kicked by the key forwards this year. The role has evolved certainly, and there's more required from it than previously, but there's still a place for the big key forward in the AFL.

 

[Jimmae]

Talking about kicks missing open players, got nothing to do with the forwards. Kicks on or over their heads, or to the side the defender has been pinned on, are also nothing to do with forwards.

Leading patterns and work rate are a whole different discussion.

The kick coming into the forward line that goes to ground or directly to an opponent or on the opponents side of the forward, are all the result of the decision making and skill execution of the player with the ball.

The timing, positioning and speed of leads absolutely have an impact on kicks hitting targets.

If your intended target has left themselves with half a metre of space on his opponent along the boundary line, charging towards a zone defender at full tilt, that makes it much harder to hit them, and much harder for them to mark it.

This part of the discussion is fine, but just be mindful this thread is more about tactics in general, rather than teeing off on specific players.

 

[Iamcarlton]

I'll be happy to see McKay and Charlie as our two tall forwards (no need for more than two these days) with the rest being a mix of medium and smalls. Both those two are faster and more mobile than Casboult and will apply more defensive pressure. Throw in Fisher, Picket, Dow, Cunners and JSOS (effort unquestioned, acceleration... hmm) and perhaps a Pat Kerr and it will be a nice mix.

The days of the lumbering big forward are done. Really want Bolts to just throw Harry at it, he's done it with pretty much every other high pick draftee.

In fact lets start a partition.

Harry Harry.....

Apologies not really tactics

We really dont have enough pacy players atm in the forwardline surrounding our talls Wright Lamb +Silvagni imo arent a great mix with Charlie +Levi to promote forward pressure and turnovers .

 

[Blue since 72]

Except, you know, they're not...

I mean, look at the bags kicked by the key forwards this year. The role has evolved certainly, and there's more required from it than previously, but there's still a place for the big key forward in the AFL.

There's big and slow and big and agile these days. Cas is the former and really applies no pressure once the ball hits the deck. Harry Charlie move like medium forwards and should create much more defensive pressure in the f50. Most clubs key forwards move well these days. Rather have our two young blokes than guys like Boyd and Patton.

 

[Blue since 72]

We really dont have enough pacy players atm in the forwardline surrounding our talls Wright Lamb +Silvagni imo arent a great mix with Charlie +Levi to promote forward pressure and turnovers .

That's why Lamb and Wright weren't on my list. I like Wright and he should be in the side at the moment but his lack of leg speed has been exposed a few times. Lamb just doesn't do enough in general.

My thoughts on JSOS's lack of speed have been noted on here a few times but as a young player I'm happy to see him develop and his fate should be allowed it's natural course at this stage of his career.

 

[therubbernub]

What let Malthouse down the most was forwards who refused to apply forward pressure and allow us to lock the ball in the forward line and to force turnovers

AHHH thats why he got rid of eddie...wait

 

[therubbernub]

How long did it take the hawks to finally figure out how to control the wild bronco. Its a huge risk attacking through the corridor because if you turn it over you are left really exposed. So should we stay in the dark ages ala MM, or do we enter the modern football arena and give it our best shot? Sure the bronco will escape at times and we will look like second rate footballers , but without trying to tame the Bronco , the Bronco will never be tamed.

We all know we are a young, inexperienced side, but they are all in the ring with the Bronco and trying their best- even if it doesnt look like it. Stay in the ring and get the odd shame-day or GTFO. Patience .

 

[Jabba73]

Tame the Bronco is code for something rude ... right?

You kids confuse me sometimes

 

[JustaBattler]

Teams force other sides to play down the boundary by 'owning' the defensive structure through the center. In effect, the better teams stack the center corridor and direct, encourage opposition to take the sucker option of the 'easier' kick to 'apparently' more space along the boundary between the arcs.

Meanwhile, their backs double up on the poor receiver waiting for the long kick along the boundary and rebound happens from spillage. The rebound goes guess where? Straight into already structured up corridor midfield runners and receivers - setting up a direct entry to a leading forward - rinse and repeat.

The along the boundary play works best for one long kick and then a centering ball into the corridor. the best play always is straight through the guts - if you have the midfield talent to carry out the handball and kicking accuracy required as well as two way running.

All the best teams play at a greater percentage of forward movement through the corridor - they look for centering kicks always inside and from there either continuing ahead or to an open 'fat side' long kick over the back.

Bolton knows this, as does every other coach on the game - he is building the same game plan that every good side employs - developing players who can play to this structure and eliminating those who can't.

The weakest part of Carlton's game right now is an inability to create rebound directly through the corridor. Kick outs for Carlton are extremely predictable and relatively easy to defend against from better opposition. It is an indictment on the club that Simpson is still taking the majority of kick outs with his predictable dummy right and go to left for a hoick to a contested mark on wing. This shows the inability of Plowman/Marchbank/Jones and Weitering to take responsibility for the kick - and allow runners like Simpson and midfielders in support, to impact by positioning themselves more centrally - and moving to a through the corridor play.

This current weakness, allows opposition teams to create pressure in the defensive 50 and generate repeat entries from 1 pointers - hence the so called inside 50 differentials which stack up against Carlton week in week out.

If Carlton want to play 4 talls down back - midfielders need to ensure they run back and support the 2 running defenders to create overlap running - this isn't happening for 4 quarters - first quarter starts evidence this intent - but the structures and work effort have not been there for 4 quarters so far this year and unfortunately as evidenced against Suns - too many midfielders drop easy chest marks or fail to execute simple hand ball skills - any player who consistently causes break downs in the ability of the team to go through the corridor is a coach killer =- they an't be considered to be part of a developing contender.

This is why i look for basic skill capability in any running midfielder. If they cant take uncontested marks, kick accurate 25 meter to team mate or execute handballs to advantage - I put a redline through them.

 

[Gethelred]

Teams force other sides to play down the boundary by 'owning' the defensive structure through the center. In effect, the better teams stack the center corridor and direct, encourage opposition to take the sucker option of the 'easier' kick to 'apparently' more space along the boundary between the arcs.

Meanwhile, their backs double up on the poor receiver waiting for the long kick along the boundary and rebound happens from spillage. The rebound goes guess where? Straight into already structured up corridor midfield runners and receivers - setting up a direct entry to a leading forward - rinse and repeat.

The along the boundary play works best for one long kick and then a centering ball into the corridor. the best play always is straight through the guts - if you have the midfield talent to carry out the handball and kicking accuracy required as well as two way running.

All the best teams play at a greater percentage of forward movement through the corridor - they look for centering kicks always inside and from there either continuing ahead or to an open 'fat side' long kick over the back.

Bolton knows this, as does every other coach on the game - he is building the same game plan that every good side employs - developing players who can play to this structure and eliminating those who can't.

The weakest part of Carlton's game right now is an inability to create rebound directly through the corridor. Kick outs for Carlton are extremely predictable and relatively easy to defend against from better opposition. It is an indictment on the club that Simpson is still taking the majority of kick outs with his predictable dummy right and go to left for a hoick to a contested mark on wing. This shows the inability of Plowman/Marchbank/Jones and Weitering to take responsibility for the kick - and allow runners like Simpson and midfielders in support, to impact by positioning themselves more centrally - and moving to a through the corridor play.

This current weakness, allows opposition teams to create pressure in the defensive 50 and generate repeat entries from 1 pointers - hence the so called inside 50 differentials which stack up against Carlton week in week out.

If Carlton want to play 4 talls down back - midfielders need to ensure they run back and support the 2 running defenders to create overlap running - this isn't happening for 4 quarters - first quarter starts evidence this intent - but the structures and work effort have not been there for 4 quarters so far this year and unfortunately as evidenced against Suns - too many midfielders drop easy chest marks or fail to execute simple hand ball skills - any player who consistently causes break downs in the ability of the team to go through the corridor is a coach killer =- they an't be considered to be part of a developing contender.

This is why i look for basic skill capability in any running midfielder. If they cant take uncontested marks, kick accurate 25 meter to team mate or execute handballs to advantage - I put a redline through them.

I find it useful to differentiate player capability and tactics.

Player capability, like you suggest in that final paragraph, is much more important than tactics, and it's comprised in equal parts of draft selection, development/injury management, and coaching. You'd think that most kids coming through the system can do the three things you mention, but those skills alone fail to capture what it is to play AFL, and I really think you're being a bit simplistic. I don't want my players just to be able to do these things; I want them to take those uncontested marks out in front of them, not on their chest; that time between taking it high or low can be the difference between an uncontested mark and a spoil. I want them to kick accurately 25 metres, sure, but I'd prefer them to think before they kick first. What value is that 25m kick along the boundary, if it ends without options? Players need to be able to find advantage through their kicks; they need to ensure that they can see the play unfolding ahead, and there needs to be an option for the player you're kicking it to to move the ball, and if there isn't you need to provide that option. As for handpassing, if you can't do that you've no place at AFL level.

I'd also say that different roles require different capabilities; inside mids require strength, more/better tackling, better awareness, and good hands on both sides, but less top speed. A key forward needs to read the game well, needs to play selfishly at times, and needs to want to be the one to kick the thing through the sticks. They need to find separation, or possess an ability to lose their opponent at crucial times, and they need to be as at home in a stoppage dishing off a handball as they are wide out taking a set shot themselves. A forward flanker is a poor man's wing, but can get on the end of a clearance and kick to advantage or at goal, depending on the range; therefore, they should be both quick of the mark and fast at top speed, possess good hands for taking the ball on the run or in a mark - out in front, damn it! - and they need to be both an accurate and a long kick. Being a thinker here is almost a disadvantage; needs to be all instinct, and good instinct. Being a winger is similar, albeit they need to be able to think their way through a transition play from the back end to the front, need to be able to repeat their efforts and get there in time to influence the next contest, and they really need to be able to find their own ball, not just jump on the end of it.

I could go on.

Ultimately, we'll spend too much time thinking about this; after all, this is an AFL website dedicated to passionate fans, and we're no longer the unthinking saps of yesteryear with the advent of crazy amounts of statistics and analysis. We can and we will watch as much if not more footy than the experts, and we will come to our own conclusions. I suppose what I'm saying here is let's not spend our time overthinking things to the point of where we fail to experience them in the moment, too caught up in the trees to see the forest's splendor.

This is a good idea for a thread, but let's not get too carried away in here.

 

[JustaBattler]

Gethelred there is nothing you say I disagree with. Tactics/Game Plan/Strategy etc require basic player capability or they are meaningless- which is why I put the last paragraph in and yes discussion about the levels or layers of competency can go on and on...however the point I wanted to make is that 'owning the corridor' or not surrendering it - remains THE key strategic goal for any side that wishes to be truly contending for a flag and that requires a bunch of players who know what to do and can execute...

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

Great idea for a thread.

Really shows though how little any of us honestly know about modern tactics. I have thought for a long time that the AFL and clubs need to educate us poor fans as to what is actually going on out on the ground nowadays.

Instead of the mindless ‘special comments’ how about we have someone explaining set ups and tactics? I would also love a show on Foxtel that analyses each teams tactics in depth rather than the shite we get dished up on a nightly basis!

 

[PrinceCharles]

Great idea for a thread.

Really shows though how little any of us honestly know about modern tactics. I have thought for a long time that the AFL and clubs need to educate us poor fans as to what is actually going on out on the ground nowadays.

Instead of the mindless ‘special comments’ how about we have someone explaining set ups and tactics? I would also love a show on Foxtel that analyses each teams tactics in depth rather than the shite we get dished up on a nightly basis!

Are you saying the media should be insightful? Sounds pretty far fetched to me...