Generational Change

[The Royal Sampler]

This may be seen as a reactionary thread, and in a way, it is.

We've got young kids filling roles at the moment, and other talented types playing well in the VFL. At some point we're going to have to give them a chance to cement a spot in the AFL. Now, I know what you're thinking; "we'll play the senior guys until the younger blokes push them out". That's well and good, but on that logic Danny Stanley would have pushed out every player in our senior midfield with his VFL performances. Not all players can simply step in and play at the same level as a 100-250 gamer, that doesn't mean they don't need exposure. Some players now being lauded in our side were car-crash viewing when they started in seniors... think Harry O for instance.

On that note, who's got to come in, and who's got to make way, and when?

Based on our 22 from today;

B: Lockyer, Prestigiacomo, Shaw
HB: O'Brien, L Brown, Maxwell
C: Pendlebury, O'Bree, Johnson
HF: Thomas, Cloke, Didak
F: Anthony, Rocca, Davis
Fo: Fraser, Swan, Beams
Int: Sidebottom, McCarthy, Medhurst, Toovey

Who would you move on for round 1, 2010?

I'm assuming that Rocca will retire. Dawes in. I also think that L Brown should make way for N Brown. Johnson should make way for Dick, who has two feet. O'Bree has been a great servant, but that's kinda the point of generational change. Someone has to be given a chance to show their wares.

OUT: Rocca (ret.), L Brown, O'Bree, Johnson
IN: Dawes, N Brown, Wellingham, Dick

Not sure exactly how to get Reid in there, short of having him in ahead of N Brown. Perhaps he could replace Toovey if matchups allowed? He's very mobile and we still have plenty of smaller defensive options in Shaw, O'Brien, Lockyer and Maxwell. Granted this won't happen but I think we need to look at creating a spot for him. As for Cam Wood... I'd drop Fraser if need be, but I know that won't happen either. If Wood is to play in tandem with Fraser, then Dawes probably stays in the VFL allowing Fraser to play part-time up forward.

What are your thoughts?

 

[mattys123]

I'd only disagree on Tarkyn Lockyer, he has 1 year left in him at best, and even MM has given up on him as a backman.

Tarks will play out the remainder of his career at half forward, as a defensive forward like he has for the majority of this year.

We have a very young list still, but some hard decisions do need to be made, not only regarding some of our older players.

Will be an interesting off season, but it ain't here yet, so I'll talk more about next year when this one is finished.

 

[sunnyTEE]

Wood needs to be given the number 1 ruck position, that is blatantly obvious.

I'd move Fraser forward and then have him pitch hitting ONLY when Cam needs a rest.

 

[Subprime]

Still thinking about next week - sorry but it applies to next year as well. Reid into defence and Nick Maxwell to the middle. It worked in last years final but it would be a big risk, still Reid's supposed to be in form so why not?

Stanley must have been groomed to take over from O'Bree but seems to be on a lot of de-listing lists.

Tarks is near the end, Rocca too, L Brown tries hard.

Can't throw the baby out with bathwater...

 

[Rustin Cohle]

Is there a reason why we can't develop Fraser as a mostly permanent forward? I think he could be quite effective in the forward fifty, providing occasional relief for Wood, who is a superior ruckmen.

I also think such a change would be beneficial for Wood, who would do well with the confidence boost from stepping out of Fraser's shadow.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Bring Reid in out-of-the-blue to play seniors in an elimination final, and you risk destroying his confidence completely.

We've got to do the right thing by some of these kids and give them a grounding in the AFL during the regular season.

 

[loki04]

B: Lockyer, Prestigiacomo, Shaw
HB: O'Brien, L Brown, Maxwell
C: Pendlebury, O'Bree, Johnson
HF: Thomas, Cloke, Didak
F: Anthony, Rocca, Davis
Fo: Fraser, Swan, Beams
Int: Sidebottom, McCarthy, Medhurst, Toovey

Who would you move on for round 1, 2010?

I'm assuming that Rocca will retire. Dawes in. I also think that L Brown should make way for N Brown. Johnson should make way for Dick, who has two feet. O'Bree has been a great servant, but that's kinda the point of generational change. Someone has to be given a chance to show their wares.

OUT: Rocca (ret.), L Brown, O'Bree, Johnson
IN: Dawes, N Brown, Wellingham, Dick


What are your thoughts?

Pretty much spot on.

I know Presti has had a great year but we should be phasing him and L.Brown out for Brown + Reid combo over the course of next season.

My prefered rnd 1 22 next year:

B: Goldsack, N.Brown, Shaw
HB: O'Brien, B.Reid, Maxwell
C: Didak, Pendlebury , Davis
HF: Thomas, Cloke, Sidebottom
F: Anthony, Dawes, Dick
Fo: Wood, Swan, Beams
Int: Fraser, McCarthy, Medhurst, Clarke

Emer: Blight, Lockyer, Presti, Rusling

Harsh on Presti but we need to see if Reid is capable before we lose Presti.

 

[Blur]

Dawes needs to be brought into the team properly next year so he can learn his role and improve, instead of being taken off after a week or two. Wood needs to also be in constantly, he is our future ruckman after all.

 

[Quicky]

I think we have a good foundation of players to push for a premiership. Thinking of a 22 I think we should be looking like this:

FB: -------Shaw-------Presti-------O'Brien-------
HB: -------Blight-------Reid---------Clarke-------
----------------------Maxwell--------------------

C: -----Wellingham-----Swan-------Davis--------
Fol: ------Wood-------Pendles------Rusty-------

HF: ------Didak--------Cloke-------Thomas------
FF: ------------Anthony-----Medhurst-----------

Int: Fraser, Beams, McCarthy, Dick/N Brown

Em: Goldy, O'Bree, Lockyer, Toovey, Dawes etc etc

Presti is the only really senior guy in our team that I see as indispensible next year.

Beams, Rusty, McCarthy and Wellingham should be pushing the O'Brees and Lockyers out of the midfield next year. Hopefully our young mids will step up enough to allow one of Davis and Didak to move back on the HFF.

We really need to find another tall forward target >> maybe Nathan Brown unless Dawes shows alot of improvement.

Johnson should be moved out by Bight and Clarke. Shaw takes Tooveys role (even with his improvement) allowing Blight and Clarke to roam the HBF.

Reid is a must at CHB as is Wood as first ruck as I see it.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

^ As much as I think Blight is going to be a gun, I don't think there's any great urgency to get him into the senior side. He could easily wait his turn until injuries allow him to get a taste.

On the other hand, we are limited in the number of changes we can make, given the weakness of the upcoming draft. We'll be loath to make more than 3 selections in the National Draft, although we could promote a couple of rookies.

Players such as Lockyer and Johnson could remain on the list and play a role, however if O'Bree, Rocca or Presti is to be supplanted they would probably have to retire and somehow be replaced through the draft.

 

[Coin_Toss]

In - Barham (preferably this week).

 

[Pie 4 Life]

B: O'Brien - N. Brown - Maxwell
HB: Shaw - Reid - Barham
C: Sidebottom - Pendlebury - Thomas
HF: Didak - Cloke - Davis
F: Dick - Anthony - Fraser
R: Wood - Swan - Beams
INT: Dawes - Clarke - Blight - Blair

In a few years time with Rocca, O'Bree, Presti, Lockyer, L. Brown all gone.

 

[bucksisbest]

I think Blair's the natural replacement for O'Bree.
I think we should be playing Dawes , Anthony and Cloke as a three tall forward set up.

 

[Blur]

Cloke? I think we should move him to CHB, instead. I don't like him kicking for goal, and unless he improves for next year, I'd say get Dawes in to play that role. He will no doubt improve over the years, so let's get him involved.

 

[Frankie23]

O'Bree and Lockyer out are knee-jerk reactions, both will be in the starting 18 next year...

 

[The Royal Sampler]

^ I know they will, but it wouldn't be a given if I was in charge of the side. I'm not asking what will happen, but what people think should happen.

If it were up to me, Rocca and J-Mac wouldn't have played this week, and Dick would have kicked his bag of goals a week or two earlier, along with his friend Medhurst, and both would be back for the Saints game in touch. Wellingham would have continued his education as one of our most talented midfield prospects... but that's all part of another story entirely.

 

[Quicky]

^ As much as I think Blight is going to be a gun, I don't think there's any great urgency to get him into the senior side. He could easily wait his turn until injuries allow him to get a taste.

On the other hand, we are limited in the number of changes we can make, given the weakness of the upcoming draft. We'll be loath to make more than 3 selections in the National Draft, although we could promote a couple of rookies.

Players such as Lockyer and Johnson could remain on the list and play a role, however if O'Bree, Rocca or Presti is to be supplanted they would probably have to retire and somehow be replaced through the draft.

Yeah next year might be a bit too early for Blight. Maybe Shaw in Blights place and Toovey back to the BP. Or maybe a Macaffer off the HBF is another good option. I think he could be really good for us there.

 

[Rustin Cohle]

Honestly, I'm still trying to think about why McCarthy was selected this week over Wellingham or Goldsack.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

^ McCarthy is clearly one of MM's favourites... which is not such a bad thing generally because he's a real talent. Wellingham, on the other hand, gets a bad rap from the coach and I'm not sure which KPI he's supposedly struggling on because as far as I can see he's a big part of our future midfield.

 

[kevind]

I would have thought that as of Round 1, 2010, our side would/should/maybe line up something like-
B Clarke Prestigiacomo/Nathan Brown O'Brien
HB Shaw Reid Maxwell
C McCarthy Didak Pendelbury
HF Thomas Cloke Medhurst
F Anthony Dawes Dick

R Wood Swan Davis

Inter Wellingham, Sidebottom, Fraser, Beams

In fact, I don't believe we are up to winning the premiership this year, so would look to line up against the Crows like this next week, minus Pendelbury of course.

As far as generational change, I would think that the players in trouble are O'Bree(poor second half of '09 and poor final)
Lockyer ( as above)
Johnson (as above)
Josh Fraser I have never rated as a ruckman, and I don't think he well ever make it as a forward. I really wanted the club to trade him 5 or 6 years ago when he may have had some worth. I couldn't imagine any club going near him now. I don't think we can afford to go into another finals campaign with Fraser as our number 1 ruckman
Anthony Rocca I would expect to retire
Didak/Davis - serious questions need to be asked as both have had far too many poor performances in big games.
Leigh Brown- Been O'k for us this year but I don't see him as part of the future.

How good we become in the coming years will depend upon finding a ruckman with physical presence( I'm certainly not confident that Wood will be the one and Keefe looks miles away from AFL standard), finding some quick midfielders with good foot skills(Pendlebury,Beams, Sidebottom, Wellingham and McCarthy should form the core group to which we would to need some pace around them as the first 3 are not the quickest)

Macaffer and Blight have potential, although Macaffer is shaping up to be another in our long line of medium sized backs.

If Dawes does not develop as we had hoped, I think our greatest draft need could be a key forward along with a ruckman. Rocca is as good as finished and Rusling a 100/1 shot. Cloke, in my book is also not a KF but just a lead up forward a la Chris Tarrant. And John Anthony IMO is not a KF either. Beyond those players mentioned we would be then looking to Reid or Nathan Brown to play KF and I would not have confidence in those options.

Therefore, when this generational change does take place our premiership chances will depend on Beams, Sidebottom, McCarthy, Dawes, Wood, Reid and McCarthy becoming A grade AFL players. If not, we may be the perennial finalsts who never win a premiership. Which is much like our history for the last 50 years.

 

[Quicky]

Just thinking about it a bit more this might be a good way to go:

FB: -------Toovey-----Presti------O'Brien------
HB: --------Shaw------Reid-------Clarke-------
----------------------Maxwell-----------------

C: --------Thomas-----Swan------Davis-------
Fol: -------Wood------Pendles---McCarthy-----

HF: -------Didak------Anthony-----Cloke-------
FF: ------------N Brown------Medhurst--------

Int: Fraser, Wellingham, Rusty, Dick

Em: Goldsack, Lockyer, O'Bree, McCarthy

It has been apparent all year that our forward line has really struggled to function. This is a combination of Cloke and Medhursts poor form, Didak and Davis's moves into midfield, and our lack of big marking target and at times a small crumbing forward.

Maybe we should trial Nathan Brown as a tall forward next year. His form as a defender this year has been a bit ordinary. His form in his few forays forward has been really promising. Perhaps he can provide us with the big presence up forward to help out Anthony.

This would also allow Reid to be developed at CHB permanently next year.

Our young group of midfielders Beams, Rusty, McCarthy and Wellingham can replace O'Bree and Lockyer and allow one of Didak and Davis to play forward.

Clarke replaces Johnson.

I would also like to see Thomas played in the midfield next year. If he is fit and has a good preseason there is no reason he can't be played there next year.

Clokes a bit of an enigma. I'm torn over whether he can be a true FF or CHF for us. There isn't really a position in defence for him if we decide to develop Reid there. He is however a headache of a match up on a HFF and may prove a more dangerous forward target if he is taking the oppos third tall instead of their CHB.

 

[hellfire]

This being the side from Sunday, with a full list available for selection.

B: Harry O’Brien, Simon Prestigiacomo, Leigh Brown
HB: Heath Shaw, Nick Maxwell, Tarkyn Lockyer
C: Alan Didak, Shane O’Bree, Scott Pendlebury
HF: Alan Toovey, Travis Cloke, Ben Johnson
F: Paul Medhurst, John Anthony, Dale Thomas
Foll: Josh Fraser, Dane Swan, Leon Davis
I/C: John McCarthy, Anthony Rocca, Steele Sidebottom, Dayne Beams

I'd say that over the next 12-18 months we should aim for:

Out: Prestigiacomo , L.Brown, Lockyer, O'Bree, Rocca, Johnson
In: N.Brown, Reid, Dick, Wellingham, Dawes, Wood


B: Harry O’Brien, Nathan Brown, Nick Maxwell
HB: Heath Shaw, Ben Reid, Sharrod Wellingham
C: Alan Didak, Steele Sidebottom, Scott Pendlebury
HF: Brad Dick, Travis Cloke, Dale Thomas
F: Paul Medhurst, Chris Dawes, John Anthony
Foll: Cameron Wood, Dane Swan, Leon Davis
I/C: Josh Fraser, Alan Toovey, Dayne Beams, John McCarthy


Guys like Blair, Goldsack, Clarke and Blight will push for selection, as will new draftees I'm sure. But everyone in that side can and should "make it". Of course, we'll likely pick up some more talented youngsters that will push some of these guys out.

 

[King Woodie]

B: O'Brien Presti Shaw
HB: Maxwell Reid Clarke
C: McCarthy Swan Wellingham
HF: Thomas Cloke Didak
F: Anthony NBrown Medhurst
Fol: Fraser Pendles Davis
INT: Wood Beams Lockyer Sidebottom
Em: Toovey O'Bree Rusling Blight

By Round 11 next year. Would like to see N Brown and Reid switch forward and back depending on matchups.

 

[shawthing09]

I think something that was raised by the spicey one on another thread is the way to go.


Use the finals, the top four finish and the fact that we were at one point flag favourites as a starting point to raise the bar.

Next year go the St Kilda method of designing KPI's kicking effiecency, defensive pressure, tackles etc etc etc anyone who doesn't meet them dropped regardless of who that is. Force players to pull the line consistantly and rotate players out until we are able to find a group who are willing to consistantly pull the line.

Obviously with such a young side the Kpi's should be altered for younger players to allow them to cement themselves into the side.

This would naturally see a rotation of players as young players who are not able to maintain AFL intensity consistantly would naturally rotate in and out of the side. Some sentimental senior players who are not pulling the line would end up on the outer and some struggling stars like Medhurst would be forced to go to the 2's to find form.

 

[daicos21]

Is there a reason why we can't develop Fraser as a mostly permanent forward? I think he could be quite effective in the forward fifty, providing occasional relief for Wood, who is a superior ruckmen.

I also think such a change would be beneficial for Wood, who would do well with the confidence boost from stepping out of Fraser's shadow.

Lacks body on body natural strength.However he could cause problems with his agility,worth a try.