News Hawthorn Racism Review - No player name speculation - opposition posters tread very carefully

[Strapping Young Lad]

Wrong. Hawks did what they had to do by the rules of the AFL.

Correct. For reference below, once the HFC had the report outlining serious allegations they were duty bound by the AFL’s protocol to hand over the report to the AFL integrity unit.

I will pin this post, as it seems to be a constant query.

 

[Billyc]

Some rancid posts in the last 24 hours.

Quite aside from the blatant racism in some of them, there’s a complete ignorance of abuse and trauma.

Past positive comments from Cyril, KP and Miller-Lewis about the club and certain people is of no relevance. It is not suggested that every experience they had at the club was awful - especially Cyril who enjoyed a wonderful career with many highs. But that doesn’t mean the terrible experiences didn’t happen.

That’s akin to writing off domestic abuse because spouses also had happier times or denied the abuse while still in the relationship. Or a child denying abuse until many years later due to complex emotions towards their abuser (Jelena Dokic a good example for that common situation).

The mixed experiences of ups and downs is what makes abuse and trauma so complex and often prevents it from being fully processed until years later.

On a similar note, an otherwise decent person can still make bad decisions and mistakes that cause significant harm to others, and can do so without malicious intent. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t terrible.

There is also always two sides to a story which the players have acknowledged in their statement, together with their willingness to hear the coaches’ recollections of and explanations for the incidents. The arrogant refusal of the coaches to even listen reflects very poorly on them.

 

[Argy]

The players statement today confirms to me the belief that Hawthorn underestimated what would be declared when they attempted to find justification for the Rioli’s claims and the players involved really just wanted to then be heard.

Does the leak of issues for Jackson to follow up happen if the players have faith that the Hawthorn report won’t get sat on during finals?

This all seems to have blown up because they felt the whole way that their issues would never be addressed.

I can’t help but think this entire mess gets handled in an instant if the AFL had any integrity in their integrity dept, and I’m amazed how more people don’t question how the AFL mishandled this and did nothing for 8 months.

100%. It seems to me the "process" got in the way.

 

[peetoo]

Some rancid posts in the last 24 hours.

Quite aside from the blatant racism in some of them, there’s a complete ignorance of abuse and trauma.

Past positive comments from Cyril, KP and Miller-Lewis about the club and certain people is of no relevance. It is not suggested that every experience they had at the club was awful - especially Cyril who enjoyed a wonderful career with many highs. But that doesn’t mean the terrible experiences didn’t happen.

That’s akin to writing off domestic abuse because spouses also had happier times or didn’t disclose the abuse while still in the relationship. Or a child denying abuse until many years later due to complex emotions towards their abuser (Jelena Dokic a good example for that common situation).

The mixed experiences of ups and downs is what makes abuse and trauma so complex and often prevents it from being fully processed until years later.

On a similar note, an otherwise decent person can still make bad decisions and mistakes that cause significant harm to others, and can do so without malicious intent. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t terrible.

There is also always two sides to a story which the players have acknowledged in their statement, together with their willingness to hear the coaches’ recollections of and explanations for the incidents. The arrogant refusal of the coaches to even listen reflects very poorly on them.

Jelena Dokic is a prime example of mistreatment in athletes. This. Was hew own family from the same ethnic background. And many many experience the abuse and aren’t famous or successful
It didn’t stop the peanut gallery flocking to games with Aussie flags even in the face of incongruity, nor turning on them when flaws were uncovered.
Surely other sports now have codes which can be drawn on?

 

[Mercy Seat]

There is also always two sides to a story which the players have acknowledged in their statement, together with their willingness to hear the coaches’ recollections of and explanations for the incidents. The arrogant refusal of the coaches to even listen reflects very poorly on them.

Very much agree with your whole post but this bit is where I think everyone has been a victim of the inclusion of lawyers and messy legal manoeuvres. The coaches said that they were willing to mediate, however, not without the conditions that were initially set prior to the mediation. Further, almost all the documentation detailing the allegations were held back from them until a few days ago. There’s just no way mediation was ever going to happen without these.

I think that now that the documents have been released, and the gag orders removed and the afl out of the way, some sort of mediation can occur, perhaps facilitated by the club.

 

[KermitJagger]

At best this is cultural insensitivity, surely. There is not, hatred or malice in any of the actions mentioned in the letter. Surely these are essential elements to a racism complaint?

Felt like projects? Seriously, Irish players are regarded as project players. Rookie pick 200 is generally a project player. Rugby players and those with basketball backgrounds are labelled, project players. Mason Cox. Since when does this suddenly have a racial connotation to it? What am I missing here?

They were given a chance to live their dream. Miller-Lewis had a high profile platform to promote his art work?

As for Cyril! Adored by 90,000+ Hawk fans and opposition supporters. Given regular leave to meet his cultural/personal needs. Pre-season training camps were held in the NT allowing him extra opportunities to be home. A Tiwi dinner was held at the club to celebrate his heritage (Turtle brought over if I recollect). Paid very well. He has his knickers in a twist a over a 'dad joke' about torn jeans?

As an outsider looking in (at least publicly) Hawthorn looked to be nailing their indigenous program.

None of this passes the eye test.

I would assume the players feeling like projects meant less in terms of a footballing context, as with Irish and US players, more in terms of their personal lives.

 

[fpm84]

As an outsider looking in (at least publicly) Hawthorn looked to be nailing their indigenous program.

None of this passes the eye test.

Key word of your post in bold.

Nobody knows what has or hasn’t taken place except the players, staff and families involved.

I sincerely hope that the HRC process allows for resolution and restoration.

 

[Brishawk]

At best this is cultural insensitivity, surely. There is not, hatred or malice in any of the actions mentioned in the letter. Surely these are essential elements to a racism complaint?

Felt like projects? Seriously, Irish players are regarded as project players. Rookie pick 200 is generally a project player. Rugby players and those with basketball backgrounds are labelled, project players. Mason Cox. Since when does this suddenly have a racial connotation to it? What am I missing here?

They were given a chance to live their dream. Miller-Lewis had a high profile platform to promote his art work?

As for Cyril! Adored by 90,000+ Hawk fans and opposition supporters. Given regular leave to meet his cultural/personal needs. Pre-season training camps were held in the NT allowing him extra opportunities to be home. A Tiwi dinner was held at the club to celebrate his heritage (Turtle brought over if I recollect). Paid very well. He has his knickers in a twist a over a 'dad joke' about torn jeans?

As an outsider looking in (at least publicly) Hawthorn looked to be nailing their indigenous program.

None of this passes the eye test.

Your posting history doesn’t pass the eye test. Go post on the swans board.

 

[Brishawk]

Very much agree with your whole post but this bit is where I think everyone has been a victim of the inclusion of lawyers and messy legal manoeuvres. The coaches said that they were willing to mediate, however, not without the conditions that were initially set prior to the mediation which essentially required an admission of guilt along with 18 demands (which was eventually denied, then removed, but still happened). Further, almost all the documentation detailing the allegations were held back from them until a few days ago. There’s just no way mediation was ever going to happen without these.

I think that now that the documents have been released, and the gag orders removed and the afl out of the way, some sort of mediation can occur, perhaps facilitated by the club.

Quinn stated those were not demands but agenda items. Stop spreading this argument that the players demands were conditions of mediation. It’s bullshit.

 

[The hands of stone]

Key word of your post in bold.

Nobody knows what has or hasn’t taken place except the players, staff and families involved.

I sincerely hope that the HRC process allows for resolution and restoration.

This is how logical and well thought people see it .
Unfortunately like everything there have been some horrible takes here and on the MB.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Quinn stated those were not demands but agenda items. Stop spreading this argument that the players demands were conditions of mediation. It’s bullshit.

Niall and Caro said that regardless of what was said by Quinn, they were still essentially conditions for mediation. I’ve edited out demands.

 

[hawkinoz]

Very much agree with your whole post but this bit is where I think everyone has been a victim of the inclusion of lawyers and messy legal manoeuvres. The coaches said that they were willing to mediate, however, not without the conditions that were initially set prior to the mediation which essentially required an admission of guilt along with 18 demands (which was eventually denied, then removed, but still happened). Further, almost all the documentation detailing the allegations were held back from them until a few days ago. There’s just no way mediation was ever going to happen without these.

I think that now that the documents have been released, and the gag orders removed and the afl out of the way, some sort of mediation can occur, perhaps facilitated by the club.

I will second this.

Was going to highlight that exact part of the post that I disagreed with. Can't blame the coaches on "not listening" when they did not know who, what or any details.

Now there is a chance to listen. The AFL process got in the way, processes that were put in place to solve many issues met with the "law of unintended consequences"

 

[pattymalone00]

 

[Brishawk]

Niall and Caro said that regardless of what was said by Quinn, they were still essentially conditions for mediation. I’ve edited out demands.

It’s quite obvious that parties come together for mediation with different things they want as an outcome mediation is the process of reconciling the differences. You cannot say, we aren’t entering mediation unless x,y and z are taken off the table and still claim you are willing to enter mediation.

Recall also, not all those items on the list were even likely related to the coaches.

Fagan threatened an injunction on the 28th of may. This was a week after the afl attempted to get a mediation process off the ground. He could easily have entered the mediation without any commitment to anything on the mediation list. He didn’t. Neither did Clarko. This is because they want control. They do not want their version of events juxtaposed with the players. They don’t want to listen. They don’t want to concede ground. The sort to delay the investigation and their participation in it as long as possible. Stop buying the narrative and start reading between the lines. There is absolutely zero evidence of any good will coming from the coaches. None. They have shown none through words, actions or in any other way. This s**t show is not all their doing but they have greatly contributed to the tension all because they simply do not what to hear the players out.

 

[Billyc]

Very much agree with your whole post but this bit is where I think everyone has been a victim of the inclusion of lawyers and messy legal manoeuvres. The coaches said that they were willing to mediate, however, not without the conditions that were initially set prior to the mediation. Further, almost all the documentation detailing the allegations were held back from them until a few days ago. There’s just no way mediation was ever going to happen without these.

I think that now that the documents have been released, and the gag orders removed and the afl out of the way, some sort of mediation can occur, perhaps facilitated by the club.

I can understand the document point, but the reporting of “conditions” or “demands” misunderstands mediation. That was the complainants’ position. That was what they hoped to achieve. Every party to a dispute has a position they hope to achieve. The purpose of mediation is to discuss those differences and see if a resolution acceptable to both parties can be reached somewhere in between their ideal positions.

Refusing to participate in a mediation because you don’t agree with the other party’s pre-mediaiton position would mean that no dispute could ever be mediated.

 

[Alite]

Open letter from Carl Peterson, Cyril Rioli, Shannyn Ahsam-Rioli, Jermaine and Montanah Miller-Lewis and Leon Egan

Dated: 2 June 2023

We are some of the Indigenous families who endured racism at the Hawthorn Football Club.

We were separated from our families.

We were told an unborn child would ruin our futures.

We were treated as special projects and control of our lives was taken from us. We told our truths in confidence, because we believed that it would bring change. And because we needed to heal and move on.

That confidence was betrayed.

We never asked for money.

All we ever wanted was to sit with the coaches and officials we looked up to, and who had such control over our lives and our futures, and make them understand what we heard.

What impact it had on our lives.

And to listen to them tell us their own truths – even why they thought they were helping us.

And we are gutted that these so-called AFL role models weren’t prepared to listen to our truths through mediation. We have always had the courage to listen to their truths too. That is our way.

We were never scared of being named. We were never scared of what they would throw at us. We were worried about impacts on others. It doesn’t change our truth.

None of us deserved this public shitshow – including them.

But they have made their choice, and we will now bring them to a Human Rights Commission conciliation to listen to the truths that they don't want to hear. And if they still won't listen and learn then it will end up in the Federal Court where we will tell our truths in the witness box. But they will hear us one way or another.

We also believe that with the passing of time that the Hawthorn Football Club will acknowledge that our suffering and pain was real.

We reached an agreement with the AFL not out of fear, but strength, because the AFL finally apologised to all First Nations players for racism in football.

They acknowledged our pain and hurt when we were at Hawthorn. They made a legally binding promise to us to combat racism in football. And the game will be safer for all First Nations families because of it.

These blokes who changed the course of our lives have never been exonerated by the AFL. The Panel never made any findings because it was shut down.

We previously allowed these people to use their power to control our lives . It should never happen again."

They are just some of the families.

An excellent letter! As soon as the first report was leaked, it would have been much better if the “process” let this type information be published much earlier.

 

[Easy Slips Catch]

The aggrieved went to the ABC. That killed any chance of this staying inhouse. It also guaranteed they'd cop some blow back.

 

[HeHateMe]

If the AFL are upset it's because they have copped blow back. But if anything this last 8 month shitshow has shown us it's that the AFL and it's clubs do not have processes in place to deal with these situations. It's ignorant to think this is solely a Hawthorn issue, it's industry wide and the AFL need to iron out a culturally safe way for these issues to be raised and appropriate workflow to resolve them.

Hawthorn responsibility is to listen and support their former players, bring them back to the club if possible and learn from there exepirences.

The AFL need to take a good hard look at the funding into wellbeing and it's place in the softcap at clubland. They also need to create an appropriate process to flag these issues when supports needed because the current ones have been tested and have fallen flat.

 

[threesixpio]

Q: Was Gil also leaving open the possibility of the three respondents being charged with bringing the game into disrepute. Let’s say there is a HRC finding that is adverse to them…?

 

[Mercy Seat]

It’s quite obvious that parties come together for mediation with different things they want as an outcome mediation is the process of reconciling the differences. You cannot say, we aren’t entering mediation unless x,y and z are taken off the table and still claim you are willing to enter mediation.

Recall also, not all those items on the list were even likely related to the coaches.

Fagan threatened an injunction on the 28th of may. This was a week after the afl attempted to get a mediation process off the ground. He could easily have entered the mediation without any commitment to anything on the mediation list. He didn’t. Neither did Clarko. This is because they want control. They do not want their version of events juxtaposed with the players. They don’t want to listen. They don’t want to concede ground. The sort to delay the investigation and their participation in it as long as possible. Stop buying the narrative and start reading between the lines. There is absolutely zero evidence of any good will coming from the coaches. None. They have shown none through words, actions or in any other way. This s**t show is not all their doing but they have greatly contributed to the tension all because they simply do not what to hear the players out.

I don’t believe you can always just read between the lines when those lines are small snippets of information that wash over the media narrative for a small cycle before changing again a few days later. Drawing these broad positions and declarations towards any party without detailed information as to what’s really going on behind the scenes is all I’m pushing back against.

I take your point on the mediation conditions and outcome - this was talked about as recently as a few days ago by a few respected in the media as a factor in the mediation falling apart so that’s why it was in my head. But you and Billyc make a lot of sense here. But I also know that getting this mediation to happen wasn't as black and white as one party wanting to do it and another not. There's a lot of moving parts.

I’ve said all along, the truth with everything here is likely somewhere in the middle. I’m also very much with the accusers on what a lot of people don’t perceive or understand as racism, even if it’s trauma post-realised. But the process and everything that’s happened since is extremely messy and frankly disgraceful and there are nuances and grey areas that I’m trying to respect and point out.

 

[bigmaxi]

I find it stunningly negligent that this has gone on so long.
Grievance - Mediation - Airing/Explaining/Apologizing/Acceptance - Future Policy - Move On.
I honestly do not know enough to point a finger at any one person or collective but FMD!
The disappointment i feel in the lack of resolution, driven by a so self proclaimed integrity based collective, from the AFL is monumental.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Surprised by the amount of posters here who liked the oppo trolls ignorant post that’s now gone. Really disappointing.

If you’ve not already had it outlined to you multiple times why cultural insensitivies can be viewed as racism I’ll explain.

First Nations people have long felt like second class citizens in this country. We literally tried to breed them out, but first of all we tried to slaughter them out of existence back in the pioneer era.

My ex-First Nations partner told me of stories passed down from generation to generation of black babies being taken into the bush, buried up to their heads and horses made to trample them to death. Her grandparents were part of the stolen generation, and had family that she knew existed, but had no idea what their names were or where they were taken.

Did you know the biggest massacre in Australia wasnt Port Authur? Waterloo Creek massacre is said to have taken the lives of anywhere between 120 and 300 Aboriginal men, women and children.
Did you know that it’s estimated over 10,000 Aboriginal people were slaughtered in over 400 massacres.

Of course this is about cultural insensitivity from the coaches, HFC and the AFL, rather than malice.

When a man with a collection of golliwogs who sees security guards at the MCG as “new arrivals” tells a young First Nations woman that she looks like she can’t afford proper clothes it’s not just going to be viewed as a “dad joke” - particular a person who feels the lack of equality or judgement on a daily basis for their entire life.

Similarly, when a young Aboriginal man is told to dissociate with his family and to buy into the AFL system, his family could quite rightly feel like they’ve been separated from their children, like the generations before.

Are people aware here that only 50yrs ago if an Aboriginal person married a Anglo Australian they had to assimilate and no longer declare themselves Aboriginal, that they needed to disassociate with family and their people?

There is deep trauma within the many First Nations communities of this country which still require sensitivity, and the time for ignorance is gone.

 

[lethalselbow]

Has the open letter started to water down a few of the earlier allegations?

 

[Buzz Hawk]

It’s quite obvious that parties come together for mediation with different things they want as an outcome mediation is the process of reconciling the differences. You cannot say, we aren’t entering mediation unless x,y and z are taken off the table and still claim you are willing to enter mediation.

Recall also, not all those items on the list were even likely related to the coaches.

Fagan threatened an injunction on the 28th of may. This was a week after the afl attempted to get a mediation process off the ground. He could easily have entered the mediation without any commitment to anything on the mediation list. He didn’t. Neither did Clarko. This is because they want control. They do not want their version of events juxtaposed with the players. They don’t want to listen. They don’t want to concede ground. The sort to delay the investigation and their participation in it as long as possible. Stop buying the narrative and start reading between the lines. There is absolutely zero evidence of any good will coming from the coaches. None. They have shown none through words, actions or in any other way. This s**t show is not all their doing but they have greatly contributed to the tension all because they simply do not what to hear the players out.

Good post..
One get's the feeling that Clarkson and Fagan wouldn't/won't enter into mediation because doing so would be admitting they (inadvertently or not) have wronged the players. Their view seems to be, "we've done nothing wrong so why should we engage in mediation?".
Seems a bit pigheaded IMO, when really a private meeting between all parties could have potentially cleared the air a long time ago.

 

[Alite]

Mediation might be successful and anonymity may remain?

That seems to be the best case scenario for all involved. But my knowledge of adversarial situations (which this surely qualifies) is that at least one person will derail the mediation process.

I hope brad sue well that you are right and a resolution can be found in mediation.

Hey brad sue well , after reading the open letter I have changed my mind as there seems a real intent to find an amicable resolution in mediation. Let's hope that happens and that an open letter composed by all parties is provided to the public.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Just a question. When these penalties are applied, is the club then excused from cutting players? It would seem very weird if, such a penalty were applied, but fringe players were cut anyway. When the whole thing seems to be about the treatment of fringe players.

Really though, a better sanction would be for the club to make a financial contribution to some indigenous program totally independent from it. We all realise that AFL fines normally go into general revenue and are divvied up among the clubs?

And I would agree that type of financial sanction is in order; I can also see an afl general revenue one for “putting the brand in disrepute (because afl gonna afl) and I’d tolerate it. I’m already accepting on around the million dollar mark.